Fourth Use of Atium - Does it Need to Be Charged?

[Comatose he/him]

So, I was reading the AMA again and thinking about God Metals, and something Brandon said (basically that our understanding of the god metals has some holes in it) got me thinking about how atium works.  

 

We know that Lerasium can be used by both allomancers and non-allomancers, but in different ways.  Non-allomancers do not need the ability to burn metals in order to tap the fraction of Preservation's power held in the Lerasium.  Now let's turn to atium.  To paraphrase what another user (mooglefrooglian) said on Reddit, Allomancy is required in order to burn atium--the burner either needs to be a seer or a Mistborn.  It makes sense that a normal person swallowing atium is unable to use it like a person swallowing Lerasium is able to tap into its power, because swallowing and burning metals is part of allomancy, a magic system that is of Preservation, not Ruin.    

 

So, if used hemalurgically, is it possible that atium would not need to be charged, just like Lerasium does not need to be burned in order to grant allomancy?  If this is the case, it could be that hemalurgic atium, like allomantic Lerasium, has more than one effect, depending on whether it is used within the magic system (with sacrifices, blood, and the whole works) or if it is just made to pierce the skin.

 

The one hole in this theory is Shardic intent.  It makes sense that Preservation's power can be given to anyone, since Preservation's intent is to preserve as much as possible.  Ruin's intent is subtractive--compelling the holder to destroy and reduce things to smaller and smaller pieces.  Hemalurgy requires sacrifice because it suits ruin's intent to concentrate power in the hands of fewer individuals.  So, allowing for potential hemalurgists to gain power without sacrifice by using uncharged atium would be contrary to Ruin's intent.  The only ways around this hurdle that I see are a) that the effect of using uncharged atium for hemalurgy does something that suits Ruin's intent in the same way that creating Mistborn fits with Preservation's intent, or b ) that utilizing the god metals outside of the magic systems allows the user to tap into a fraction of the shard's power, regardless of intent.  Personally, I like option A better, but what do you guys think?  Thanks for tolerating my musings .  

[The Sovereign]

So, if used hemalurgically, is it possible that atium would not need to be charged, just like Lerasium does not need to be burned in order to grant allomancy?  If this is the case, it could be that hemalurgic atium, like allomantic Lerasium, has more than one effect, depending on whether it is used within the magic system (with sacrifices, blood, and the whole works) or if it is just made to pierce the skin.

I like the idea, however, I think it simply goes against the nature of Hemalurgy, If the Atium spike is not charged then there is nothing to splice onto the recipient's sDNA and therefore can be no Hemalurgy. In addition it defies the very nature of the magic system (an Ruin's intent); Hemalurgy is supposed to be net-negative, Allomancy on the other hand is net-positive, logically speaking it makes sense that Preservation's raw power can be burned by non-allomancers due to the net-positive nature . I suspect you would just be stabbing someone with an Atium spike (Ruin in its own right I suppose ). There is a WoB stating that Atium can be used to steal any trait but people don't know how to do it (I am having trouble locating it at this moment, damnation phone). I suspect that is the special property of Atium in Hemalurgy.

[Oudeis he/him]

The whole system might be even more complicated than we realize. Because, of course, God Metals simply operate in a fundamentally different way than the normal metals; somewhat ironically, they work the way Scadrians think normal metals work. The metal itself is burned for power.

 

It's ironic, therefore, how atium works in allomancy. You burn the power of Ruin, for net gain. One would expect, coming from Ruin, there would be a net-loss, like with hemalurgy. However, keep in mind that atium was never Ruin's plan; it was something Preservation forced upon him. So it might make sense that it operates slightly differently than it would if it had been something Ruin had deliberately granted. Lerasium, by contrast, was granted deliberately, so it's possible that's why it acts like a normal allomantic metal.

 

With that in mind, perhaps they do both work in hemalurgy other than you'd expect from a hemalurgic thing. That in mind, here's my personal head!canon. Atium steals not only any trait, but preserves it perfectly with no decay. Lerasium is the one that comes pre-charged; you can just stab it into someone and grant them a power without first having to steal it. (To deal with the apparent power difference, I think Lerasium is restricted in what it can offer; only one of the Allomantic powers, perhaps, or maybe just only a base human trait, whereas atium can steal literally anything, and might be the only way to steal something like an arcana from another Shardworld.)

 

Again, I cannot stress enough, these are just my personal musings. I have little to nothing to support them, and for all I know there's a WoB or something from the text I've missed proving me wrong.

[The Sovereign]

 Lerasium is the one that comes pre-charged; you can just stab it into someone and grant them a power without first having to steal it. (To deal with the apparent power difference, I think Lerasium is restricted in what it can offer; only one of the Allomantic powers, perhaps, or maybe just only a base human trait, whereas atium can steal literally anything, and might be the only way to steal something like an arcana from another Shardworld.)

Oudeis, these are two excellent observations here. I agree with you on both points. From a logistical standpoint this makes a lot of sense, Brandon's magic systems for the most part work logically and these follow suit with what we know about both Preservation and Ruin. I suspect that a Lerasium spike would retain it's charge as you mentioned. I do not think that it would be that it is limited in what it would give, but rather, it would depend on which bindpoint was used (Spike placement). Also, I completely agree that it probably requires an Atium spike to steal off world magics.

[natc]

There's also atium feruchemy, which does in fact deal with the concept of decay by manipulating age, but it's actual effect in usage makes you younger, not older and closer to being dead. That only happens when you store up reserves to use the power. So it brings you ever closer to the end as a cost, but in return reverses the ruinous effects of aging when that store is spent. One can argue that both storing and tapping have their own utilities, but when compounding comes into play the difference becomes very apparent.

Atium itself really doesn't do much ruining while in use, in terms of mechanics, only ideologically at most (burning atium destroys nothing and in fact introduces power into the system. But it does turn you into a nearly unstoppable killing machine, and that's really all it's good for by itself).

I can imagine atium spikes having less or no decay as well, since for better or worse hemalurgy has been tied to the power of Ruin. It'd make sense.

But atium hemalurgy is more than ruinous enough as it is, being the one metal capable of tearing any part of a person's soul out of them. With enough atium and timed impalement you can literally spike a whole person and all his traits into other people and be left with a body devoid of a spiritweb.

[Oudeis he/him]

With enough atium and timed impalement you can literally spike a whole person and all his traits into other people and be left with a body devoid of a spiritweb.

 

There's an assumption inherent in this sentence I'm not fully comfortable with...

[natc]

Well, I was exaggerating, but still, they'd basically be spiritual swiss cheese held together by gum and duct tape. If they're even still alive.

[Oudeis he/him]

I was talking about your assumption that there must be a way to take multiple traits from one person...

 

Alternately, something worth mentioning. Musn't we have seen atium hemalurgy already? Marsh had spikes granting both allomantic and feruchemical atium. Don't you need an atium spike to transfer them? Admittedly, we don't know much about hemalurgy, so who even knows.

[The Sovereign]

I was talking about your assumption that there must be a way to take multiple traits from one person...

 

Alternately, something worth mentioning. Musn't we have seen atium hemalurgy already? Marsh had spikes granting both allomantic and feruchemical atium. Don't you need an atium spike to transfer them? Admittedly, we don't know much about hemalurgy, so who even knows.

Oudeis, as you mention, we have seen Atium Hemalurgy before, Marsh took his Atium spikes from dead Inquisitors (that Vin killed).

 

WoB of Relevance:

zas678 (reddit.com)

Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical Atium Spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power?

Brandon Sanderson (reddit.com)

Dead inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet.

 

 

Edit: Huh, I got a downvote for a WoB... I am killing it today!

 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Iron Eyes

[Oudeis he/him]

My friend brought that WoB up... not it says "Feruchemical Atium Spike" which is grammatically inexact. It's possible that all it's saying is, "a spike which grants feruchemical atium" which we already knew he had. That I can tell, this isn't confirmation that atium has to be used to to steal allomantic or feruchemical atium.

[The Sovereign]

My friend brought that WoB up... not it says "Feruchemical Atium Spike" which is grammatically inexact. It's possible that all it's saying is, "a spike which grants feruchemical atium" which we already knew he had. That I can tell, this isn't confirmation that atium has to be used to to steal allomantic or feruchemical atium.

Honestly, I had misread a part of your post before. To answer your previous question, No, we do not know that Atium has to be used to Steal Feruchemical Atium. We simply know that it CAN be used to do so, per WoB stating that an Atium spike can be used to steal any attribute. My apologies for the confusion.

[Comatose he/him]

I was talking about your assumption that there must be a way to take multiple traits from one person...

 

Alternately, something worth mentioning. Musn't we have seen atium hemalurgy already? Marsh had spikes granting both allomantic and feruchemical atium. Don't you need an atium spike to transfer them? Admittedly, we don't know much about hemalurgy, so who even knows.

 

 

We have seen atium used for the purpose of hemalurgy (stealing traits).  We've also seen it used in allomancy and Feruchemy.  Similary, we know that Lerasium has an allomantic, feruchemical, and hemalurgic use.  However, Lerasium ALSO has a fourth use outside of the three Scadrielen magic systems, which is the ability to give anyone who swallows it allomantic abilities.  What I would like to put forward is that atium also has a fourth use.  This fourth purpose could be related to hemalurgy, but not a part of the actual magic system (and thus not requiring sacrifices and bind points?).  

 

To make things clear, here's how I'm trying to think about the metals, and what I mean by their "fourth use" or "fourth purpose".  

 

Lerasium:

Allomantic Use - Unknown Effect.

Feruchemical Use - Storing unknown trait or quality.  

Hemalurgic Use - Stealing unknown trait or quality.  

Fourth Use - Granting the power of allomancy when ingested, or strengthening an allomancers power if that person is already an allomancer, by increasing connection with Preservation.  

 

Atium:

Allomantic Use - Mental enhancement, and seeing the future or possible futures of others.  

Feruchemical Use - Stores Age

Hemalurgic Use - Wild Card - Steals any trait depending on bind point, and does so more efficiently than the regular metal used to store it.  Possibly could steal all traits? We don't know for sure.

Fourth Use - ???  Perhaps something to do with increasing one's connection to Ruin?  Perhaps using atium in this way could cause madness?  

 

For this fourth use, I think people are right to focus on the fact that Preservation is end positive, and thus bestowing or adding power makes sense, and that a fourth independent use of atium should similarly be end negative and involve stealing or removing power.  Whatever this fourth use is, I think it would make sense for said use not to involve conventional hemalurgic sacrifices, just as the fourth use of Lerasium does not involve burning metals.  

 

This is off topic, but I also find it interesting that allomancy is potentially the most diverse magic system (even though hemalurgy could be argued to be the most versatile).  Feruchemy can be characterized as "storing and withdrawing traits in metal" while hemalurgy is "stealing traits through sacrifice by metal".  By this pattern, would allomancy be "gaining traits by burning metals"?  While Feruchemy comes down to storing and withdrawing, hemalurgy to sacrificing and stealing, allomancy is more difficult to boil down.  Allomancers burn metals yes, but those metals seem to do a wider variety of things than simply storing or stealing traits.  

 

Any theories on what end-negative use atium could have outside of the three magic systems?  

[Oudeis he/him]

I'll try to find the relevant WoB, but I do not think your model is accurate. I believe the "fourth use" you mention of lerasium is just lerasium being used allomantically.

 

I believe we have WoB that lerasium is a metal that anyone can burn. What it actually does is, allow a person to re-write their own spiritweb. The default use of it writes in a connection to Preservation (i.e., makes you a mistborn). There is WoB saying that if Vin took a bead of lerasium and simply burned it, she'd make herself a more powerful mistborn by default. You must know what you're doing with lerasium to take conscious control of the process and rewrite your own spiritweb in a different way.

 

I will try to find the WoB in the morning when I'm not heading off to bed.

[Titan Arum]

Here's the WoB you're probably thinking about...but it's paraphrased. The bane of trustworthy WoB.

 

  INTERVIEW: Jan 6th, 2015

Firefight Signing Line Audio (Paraphrased)

SHARDLET

If Vin and Elend hypothetically each blindly ingested equivalently sized beads of lerasium, would Vin be a stronger Mistborn than Elend, or would they be equal?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, Vin would be stronger. It is additive, not just an overwrite.

The same thing happens with Hemalurgy; with Hemalurgy when you're spiking someone's soul, you're ripping off a piece and adding it.

[Comatose he/him]

"As a tidbit, that was a side effect of what that bead of metal did. It wasn’t the main purpose of the bead, and if another Allomancer were to burn it, it would do something else."

This WOB seems to contradict that. He specifically says here that creating allomancers is a side effect of ingesting Lerasium, separate from it's true allomantic effect.

[natc]

I was talking about your assumption that there must be a way to take multiple traits from one person...

Alternately, something worth mentioning. Musn't we have seen atium hemalurgy already? Marsh had spikes granting both allomantic and feruchemical atium. Don't you need an atium spike to transfer them? Admittedly, we don't know much about hemalurgy, so who even knows.

Well, spiking doesn't inherently kill the person. Bloodmakers can apparently regenerate from it, so presumably for them to have time to do so it's not tearing the soul apart that kills them, just the physical damage of being impaled (usually through the heart, too. It seems to bind for the theft of a lot of things).

It should logically be possible to spike someone without killing them, so can't you just take a second spike and do it again?

[Oudeis he/him]

Having read the W's-o-B you mention, I feel you are paraphrasing them and making leaps of assumption not inherent in the statements, but we're derailing the thread here.

[coppercloud]

Well, spiking doesn't inherently kill the person. Bloodmakers can apparently regenerate from it, so presumably for them to have time to do so it's not tearing the soul apart that kills them, just the physical damage of being impaled (usually through the heart, too. It seems to bind for the theft of a lot of things).

It should logically be possible to spike someone without killing them, so can't you just take a second spike and do it again?

The way i think it would work with a full furchemist or a double gold with an fIdentity spike. Store identity , hemal stab away,heal,repeat as needed , restore identity .

[natc]

Yeah, the whole "give everyone infinite goldminds" thing has come up here before. Next to the dark alley.