Possible Origin of Shardplate? (Spoilers WoR)

[Ansalem]

Sounds good to me. That's actually kinda what I read in the reddit thread that made me piece it all together in the first place. The only difference was that guy assumed each order had their highspren and lesser spren. Windrunners would be honorspren and windspren. Another order (cryptics I guess, although I don't remember if Pattern is a liespren) had liespren and creationspren. Then whatever Wyndle is and lifespren. Basically each one would have their lesser spren that corresponds in some way to their order that they could use to create the Shardplate. In that case maybe gravityspren would work for Bondsmiths?

 

Cryptics and liespren are the same thing, by the way. Cryptic is their name for themselves. 

 

Also highspren is an actual type of spren, presumably the type that Skybreakers bond with. (Syl says she doesn't care about the law as she's not highspren, I forget the exact wording). Probably better to call them major and minor spren for your theory to avoid confusion.

[02ranger he/him]

Cryptics and liespren are the same thing, by the way. Cryptic is their name for themselves. 

 

Also highspren is an actual type of spren, presumably the type that Skybreakers bond with. (Syl says she doesn't care about the law as she's not highspren, I forget the exact wording). Probably better to call them major and minor spren for your theory to avoid confusion.

You're right on both points. lol I can't ever remember the name of Shallan's order, and for some reason was thinking cryptic. I completely forgot about the highspren, but I'll change it to major and minor in the OP, just in case. Thanks for that!!

[CJ Feboris]

I have a couple of points on this topic. I've been doing a lot of thinking about the creation of ShardPlate. I like the spren theory personally, although I think there is some validity to the condensed Stormlight theory. The reason that I apprciate the spren theory more is twofold.

1. The spren in Shinovar

  - Someone else mentioned these spren as a reason for the Shardplate being spren, but they said that it was because there was no stormlight in Shinovar. I don't think this is accurate. I think the spren in Shinovar are employed and this could be a breakout theory with a complete topic to itself, but I think that the Shin are the remenents of the KR that did not abandon their oaths. One could make the argument that it was the Skybreakers, but I don't think this is accurate because we know that Nalan has abandoned his oath and we don't see any surgebinding/flying from the skybreakers at this point. Ergo, the Shin being the order of KR that did not abandon their oaths seems to make the most sense based on the limited factual data we have on them. The interlude with Rysn (sp?) shows that there are no spren floating around in Shinovar, we already know that they are the guardians of the honorblades, we know that they hold to the old ideals of warrior being the lowest class of the four-class system, we know that they should not have a problem removing the honorblades given to truthless from people who would later find them, we also know that Nin is hunting them (this might be the best reasoning). Anyway the reason to expand upon this is to say if we have a fully employed KR order then it stands to reason that their spren are still being employed like they appeared to be in Dalinar's visions (there didn't appear to be an abundance of spren around in the visions although admittidly there were some). 

2. The spren trapped in a fabrial also don't appear to scream

  - We saw from the annotations in Navani's notebook from the WoK that to create a fabrial, one needs to trap a spren inside the gemstone. Since the spren is trapped and still alive it does not cause the screaming. This is quite possibily the case for the Shareplate since the plate does not have the primary bonded spren but only a (possible) secondary bonded spren and the Knights did not break their oaths to these spren, but they still got trapped by the plate and its form. They do lose their luster without the knight, so the theory of the "highspren" control seems to make sense. 

 

I think Ansalem is correct about the highspren being refered to as a specific type of spren, but I think that the 10 types of spren capable of forming the nahel bond are also refered to as highspren by Jasneh when she is discussing the spren with Shallan. They are at least the ones that form cities, and not the mindless beasts that painspren and exhaustionspren. 

 

Clearly this is very speculative and I look forward to everyone picking it apart.

[Alfa he/him]

Yeah, I get it now. That's an interesting theory. I'll have to let it marinate a while.

 

How did they make the half-shards in Jah Keved (I think that's where they were)? Did we ever get any information or decent descriptions on them? I know we saw them in a Szeth chapter but I don't have my book handy to check. That may give some clues about the construction of the original Shardplate.

 

Half-shards are steel shields with attached amplifier gemstones (not noticed of which kind). The amplifiers stabilize the steel to the point of being capable stopping one or two hits with a shardblade. They are somehow similar to Grandbows.

 

I am a supporter of the Shardplate-is-Spren-theory (SiS-Theory) and do not believe that original shardplate was constructed. Instead i believe that in Half-shards the same force is being used.

[02ranger he/him]

Half-shards are steel shields with attached amplifier gemstones (not noticed of which kind). The amplifiers stabilize the steel to the point of being capable stopping one or two hits with a shardblade. They are somehow similar to Grandbows.

 

I am a supporter of the Shardplate-is-Spren-theory (SiS-Theory) and do not believe that original shardplate was constructed. Instead i believe that in Half-shards the same force is being used.

It would be interesting to see if the half-shards have spren trapped in the gemstones. I remember something about trapping spren in gemstones in WoR. I REALLY need to get busy on this reread cause I've forgotten so much. Halfway through WoK.........

[natc]

It would be interesting to see if the half-shards have spren trapped in the gemstones. I remember something about trapping spren in gemstones in WoR. I REALLY need to get busy on this reread cause I've forgotten so much. Halfway through WoK.........

Trapping spren is the basis of every modern fabrial ever, so half-shards almost definitely have them.

[02ranger he/him]

Trapping spren is the basis of every modern fabrial ever, so half-shards almost definitely have them.

That's what I was thinking but I didn't want to say the wrong thing on here without having my book to back it up. Regular gemstones just have stormlight infused, fabrials have living spren trapped inside. Seems like it could support the SIS (credit:Alfa) theory. At the very least it's not enough to discredit it.

[02ranger he/him]

So I think I just came across a little more support for the Shardplate Is Spren theory while rereading WoK. First, I remember Kaladin's mother mentioning that there are spren in everything, even inanimate objects. I discarded it as superstition at first, but when Shallan performs her first soulcasting, on the goblet, she surmises that she bribed the spren of the goblet with stormlight to change. Perhaps there's something similar happening with the Shardplate, along with the major/minor spren theory as well. It explains somewhat where the Stormlight comes into things.

 

Anyway, it's not much of a discovery and it's not exactly buried information, but it is something that I had forgotten that seems to support my theory.

[kaellok he/him]

In WoR, the Dalinar flashback scene shows what i interpreted as a void spren (the red one) "corrupting" another spren. At work and been awhile, so I've forgotten the specific details. Anyway, that process seems to be similar and yet opposite of the spren + different spren = Shard plate idea. (Ie, seems plausible because similar mechanics exist in world)

Unless I've managed to mis remember altogether, so if someone could check would appreciate it. Or i can in a few hours when i get home

[02ranger he/him]

I just found something else that I take to be support, although its circumstantial at best. In the Feverstone chapter, Dalinar sees a bunch of Radiants fall out of the sky, Windrunners I assume, and they all glow blue. Later, when Kaladin first bonds a stone to the wall, he sees tiny blue spren holding the stone to the wall. Syl calls these bindspren. Might these be the spren that make up the Windrunners' Shardplate instead of windspren?

[Alfa he/him]

Probably, Plate is made from more than one type of spren.

[icspots]

Just a thought to bolster the theory that shardplate is live spren stuck in the form of shardplate.  Remember the interlude with the researchers studying flamespren?  They specifically point out that once measured or recorded the flame spren remained in the same shape.  Once they destroyed the figures they wrote down the flamespren returned to it's baseline changyness (that's a technical term, you understand).

 

I'm not married to a particular method of plate being created.  Perhaps it was a completely natural evolution of the Nahel bond.  Perhaps it was an engineered creation by one group like the Bondsmiths (though given that there were apparently only three Bondsmiths and a lot of KR with plate they might find themselves a bit busy).  Perhaps it was a collaboration between the Highspren and some engineering.

 

The point I come to is if part of the process of creating the shardplate (whatever that process might be) involved defining how the spren would act as shardplate...... "you will adjust to fit your wearer, you will absorb stormlight to fit yourself", etc....... then the plate could still be living spren which was defined into a specific shape/purpose. 

 

I'm assuming the more esoteric functions of the plate seen in the flashbacks were because of the Nahel bonded spren interfacing with the defined spren of the plate.  So while bonded spren may have been involved in the making, and the increased awesomeness of "old" plate, the plate's continued existence wasn't dependent on the bonded spren continuing to live.  Think of it like a car.  The plate is the body, the suspension, the wheels, the seats, etc.  The bonded spren is the engine.  Take the engine out and the car still exists, but now it needs a different form of propulsion.  In the case of the plate it's the infused gemstones, vs the KR themselves fueling it with stormlight.

 

And that makes me wonder about something else.  Did the modern users of the plate somehow add the gem slots inside the plate in order to power it, or were they already there?  We know Kaladin can power plate directly based on the duel scene, however just powering even a helmet drained him completely in a few minutes.  Perhaps the KR ran the plate with the gemstones, and they topped them off as needed.  Just a thought.

[02ranger he/him]

Just a thought to bolster the theory that shardplate is live spren stuck in the form of shardplate.  Remember the interlude with the researchers studying flamespren?  They specifically point out that once measured or recorded the flame spren remained in the same shape.  Once they destroyed the figures they wrote down the flamespren returned to it's baseline changyness (that's a technical term, you understand).

 

I'm not married to a particular method of plate being created.  Perhaps it was a completely natural evolution of the Nahel bond.  Perhaps it was an engineered creation by one group like the Bondsmiths (though given that there were apparently only three Bondsmiths and a lot of KR with plate they might find themselves a bit busy).  Perhaps it was a collaboration between the Highspren and some engineering.

 

The point I come to is if part of the process of creating the shardplate (whatever that process might be) involved defining how the spren would act as shardplate...... "you will adjust to fit your wearer, you will absorb stormlight to fit yourself", etc....... then the plate could still be living spren which was defined into a specific shape/purpose. 

 

I'm assuming the more esoteric functions of the plate seen in the flashbacks were because of the Nahel bonded spren interfacing with the defined spren of the plate.  So while bonded spren may have been involved in the making, and the increased awesomeness of "old" plate, the plate's continued existence wasn't dependent on the bonded spren continuing to live.  Think of it like a car.  The plate is the body, the suspension, the wheels, the seats, etc.  The bonded spren is the engine.  Take the engine out and the car still exists, but now it needs a different form of propulsion.  In the case of the plate it's the infused gemstones, vs the KR themselves fueling it with stormlight.

 

And that makes me wonder about something else.  Did the modern users of the plate somehow add the gem slots inside the plate in order to power it, or were they already there?  We know Kaladin can power plate directly based on the duel scene, however just powering even a helmet drained him completely in a few minutes.  Perhaps the KR ran the plate with the gemstones, and they topped them off as needed.  Just a thought.

This makes a lot of sense. Its funny, I just read that portion of WoK and this didn't even occur to me, but Brandon doesn't include anything just to fill pages. The defined spren thing is definitely important somehow, and I really like this application of it. And since the major spren doesn't cease to exist entirely when the oaths are broken, maybe their "definition" of the Platespren would remain and that's how the spren got locked into Plate form. I really like this idea.

 

As for the gemstones, I have no proof but I really believe they were added after the Radiants. I think eventually we'll see Kaladin get to a level where he's so efficient at holding in Stormlight that he doesn't have to worry about Plate draining him of it but he'll still be able to power the Plate. In fact, it could be as simple as the fact the helmet wasn't "his". Maybe if and when he is capable of generating his own Shardplate, it will interface better with him than others' Plate does. Or it could also be the fact that he wasn't wearing an entire suit, so maybe it isn't "sealed" until he is wearing a complete suit, although I kinda doubt this is the case.

[Nethseäar he/him]

Excellent theory! (Shardplate-is-Spren, that is, though I like that there are other theories being presented here). It feels right based on what we've seen so far. I mean, we now know Shardblades are spren; the naming and material similarity of Shardblades to Shardplate is therefore suspicious. A sort of spren hierarchy is a fascinating direction to take.

I was browsing a Sanderson Q&A and came across this quote:

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1052#13(Section 25 -- Is there a way to link to an isolated section?)
 

 

RIT

Alright, glowing Shardplate and retractable helmets. Is that a similar origin of the Shardblades—

BRANDON SANDERSON

There's a similarity, but they are also very different.

RIT

Yeah, I noticed they do seem like advanced fabrials, because Adolin just keeps going on and on about how they're all interchangeable and how they all feel comfortable after a while, and it doesn't have the same kind of thing with the Shardblades.

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, it doesn't. Though a Shardblade, used for a long time, will change shape slightly.

 

Intriguing.

Another direction for speculation is the Oathgates. They are giant fabrials, as far as I understand, but they have Shard-strength slots for Shardblades. While they could possibly be half-shards (fabrial-enhanced steel), I recall something about it shifting to match the shape of the Shardblade? (My copy is presently lent out, or I would check) Which, if true, is a link to being made of spren.

Assuming the Shardblade slots in the Oathgates are some form of spren, how does that fit in this theory? Are they commanded to take that form and then left there? I suppose minor spren might not mind, being effectively mindless.

[natc]

If shardplate and the oathgate slot are locked spren, then I wonder where they wrote down the measurements for them.

And how those things can morph to fit around whatever you put in them despite being locked in.

[Bort he/him]

Just a thought to bolster the theory that shardplate is live spren stuck in the form of shardplate.  Remember the interlude with the researchers studying flamespren?  They specifically point out that once measured or recorded the flame spren remained in the same shape.  Once they destroyed the figures they wrote down the flamespren returned to it's baseline changyness (that's a technical term, you understand).

 

<Snip>

 

And that makes me wonder about something else.  Did the modern users of the plate somehow add the gem slots inside the plate in order to power it, or were they already there?  We know Kaladin can power plate directly based on the duel scene, however just powering even a helmet drained him completely in a few minutes.  Perhaps the KR ran the plate with the gemstones, and they topped them off as needed.  Just a thought.

 

I think your first point here about the flamespren and those Ardents have something to do with how Shardplate is formed. I was going to make it myself until I saw your post. With the flamespren, their size was measured and fixed. I think there is a way of form locking them, while still giving them some freedom of movement.

 

For your comment below the snip, we know that Shardblades didn't have gemstones at first. They were introduced later to facilitate the bond, and the swords molded themselves around the gems. If Shardplate originally fed off the KR's stormlight, then they wouldn't need gemstones, so I agree. I believe that the gemstones were added to the Plate at a later date.

 

My final comment is to bring up something Syl said, with regards to a major Spren controlling minor Spren and forming them into shardplate. Spren can't attract Spren. Or at least, that is what Syl believes in WoR. Of course, this could just be Brandon misdirecting us. After all, there is always another secret.

[Bort he/him]

I have a WoB!

 

Gemstones were added to Shardplate AFTER the Recreance. Further quizzing for clarification, and Brandon admitted it was around the same time that people discovered adding gemstones to Shardblades allowed you to bond them. The gemstones in Plate are the same thing.

 

Edit: Some slight bragging here, but Brandon also complimented me on my question, and told me I had gotten a secret out of him

Edited October 21, 2015 by Bort

[Alfa he/him]

Nice!

[SirTraconus]

Ayo that was my post!

 

My name on Reddit is Wyndle, If you want to check to make sure

[02ranger he/him]

If shardplate and the oathgate slot are locked spren, then I wonder where they wrote down the measurements for them.

And how those things can morph to fit around whatever you put in them despite being locked in.

Shardplate adjusts to the wearer's size too, so it's not too much of a stretch to believe the Oathgates can do the same if they're made from the same "materials". Although I'm not sure what to say about who is defining them. None of my ideas right now really make sense.....

[02ranger he/him]

Ayo that was my post!

My name on Reddit is Wyndle, If you want to check to make sure

Yep, that's the post I saw! That's awesome! Great theory man and you deserve most of the credit for this, if not all. What do you think of how its evolved here?

[lordofsoup]

Do all Radients get Plate?  Not all Radients get Blades.  Though that statement leads to the question, did past Bondsmiths get Blades?  Im inclined to think that not all Radients would get Plate.  

 

I think that this theory has merit, though more likely that they use a specific type of spren that forms after a certain Oath to make the plate.  

Edited October 21, 2015 by lordofsoup

[natc]

Do all Radients get Plate? Not all Radients get Blades. Though that statement leads to the question, did past Bondsmiths get Blades? Im inclined to think that not all Radients would get Plate.

I think that this theory has merit, though more likely that they use a specific type of spren that forms after a certain Oath to make the plate.

That's like the one thing they can't not have at full power. Other than bondsmiths, anyway. But that's more the Stormfather's fault, and we don't know if it's normal or just Dalinar.

[maxal she/her]

Do all Radients get Plate?  Not all Radients get Blades.  Though that statement leads to the question, did past Bondsmiths get Blades?  Im inclined to think that not all Radients would get Plate.  

 

I think that this theory has merit, though more likely that they use a specific type of spren that forms after a certain Oath to make the plate.  

 

There is a WoB out there stating Plate was accessible to all Radiants, but not all chose to use it.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Presumably, all Radiants of old did have Blades. The Stormfather is refusing because he's afraid of getting trapped as a Blade if Dalinar breaks his oaths.