Mraize Piercing the Veil

[ivoryblade]

When Mraize discovers that Shallan and Veil are the same person, he reasons that he saw her reveal her Radiance as she helped the army. But I'm not quite following his logic. Sure, Shallan infused spheres and operated the Oathgate, but she never did anything to reveal that she was a Lightweaver. How would Mraize just know that Shallan was Lightweaving as Veil?

[Cortez he/him]

She showed her drawing skills while creating the map to the oathgate, that would be enough of a clue to point Mraize in the right direction. Figuring out that she's a Lightweaver shouldn't have been too hard from there given her skill with disguises and the fact that she revealed that she's a Radiant.

[Moogle]

Pattern does a bad job of hiding himself. Mraize could have had a report of a strange fractal spren following Shallan and made a very easy leap from that.

 

Also, he has her brothers. Maybe he interrogated them and learned more of her past which let him guess more accurately.

[Oudeis he/him]

Also, he's an incredible spymaster. Through luck and possession of resources they are unaware of, she's been able to avoid a few of his attempts to learn her secrets. It's entirely plausible that he tried another method of spying on her that she failed to detect.

[Ansalem]

It could be that he's aware of the abilities of the Radiants. Before he knew there were any Radiants around he was fooled, but after Shallan revealed herself as a Radiant he could have made the connection by realizing that lightweaving could explain her stealth. How he knows she's also a soulcaster is the interesting question to me. Does he know that Lightweavers were known to have remarkable memory?

 

The way I see it:

 

1) Veil can enter and leave places without being seen while people are actively looking for her and she sneaks behind Iyatil while Iyatil thinks she's looking at her already.

 

2) There is a Radiant with unknown abilities.

 

3) Someone with Lightweaving can change their appearance at will and appear where they are not.

 

4) Veil is a Radiant and one of her abilities is Lightweaving.

 

5) Veil can draw a scene from memory with exactness.

 

6) The Order of Lightweavers had remarkable memories.

 

7) Lightweavers second ability is Soulcasting.

 

So if he knows the abilities of each of the Orders of Radiant, given what he knows about Veil he can determine that Veil is Shallan and she is a Lightweaver.

 

Although, I think the evidence is a little shaky for him to be as confident as he was. There's probably more to it than just that. Like the fact that she's a Davar and her family has been involved in the various secret societies. And she was Jasnah's ward and he knows she killed Tyn, the one hired for the assassination. Shallan's artistic skill is well known even if her exact memory isn't. It's possible he knows more than just those things, as well. For example he's possibly a worldhopper so he might be familiar with Shadesmar and therefore possibly the Cryptics. A large number of people saw Pattern. That's a bit of a leap though.

 

It's also possible that he just noticed Pattern following Veil and then heard about him or saw him himself during the events at the Oathgate. If that's the case then the connections are a lot easier to make. That by itself doesn't explain how he knows she can soulcast, though.

[ccstat he/him]

I agree with Cortez, but I think we probably need the actual quote to see what Mraize said.

 

My understanding of the conversation is that Shallan Davar is already widely known as the Radiant who saved the armies. Mraize, being knowledgeable about Radiant abilities/characteristics, deduces from the clues available that Lightweaver is the correct order and therefore she has access to Soulcasting. 

 

What I recall him saying is something like "I wouldn't have figured out you and Veil were the same person if your abilities hadn't been displayed in saving the army." Specifically, I think he is referring to the drawing skills that mapped out their path and located the oathgate. That seems to have been the connection that let him connect the dots.

 

When Veil initially reveals that she can draw from memory, she specifically thinks about the necessity of hiding Shallan's ability to draw. If I remember correctly, I think there is also a line during the plateau mapping where Shallan thinks, "I shouldn't be displaying this--oh, well, if I don't we all die. I'll deal with repurcussions later."

Edited August 26, 2015 by ccstat

[Oudeis he/him]

Did we know that Mraize knows she can Soulcast? I don't recall that part.

[ccstat he/him]

Okay, here are the actual quotes:

“You led me on a grand hunt, Veil,” Mraize said. “If your abilities had not been manifest during the course of saving the army, I perhaps never would have located your false identity.”

“Veil is the false identity, Mraize,” Shallan said. “I am me.”

He inspected her. “I think not.”

She met that gaze, but shivered inside.

“A curious position you are in,” Mraize said. “Will you hide the true nature of your powers? I was able to guess what they are, but others will not be so knowledgeable. They might see only the Blade, and not ask what else you can do.”

[...]

“Your house is no more,” Mraize said. “Your family’s grounds seized by a passing army. I rescued your brothers from the chaos of the succession war, and am bringing them here. Your family, however, does owe me a debt. One Soulcaster. Broken.”

He met her eyes. “How convenient that you, by my estimations, are one, little knife.”

Edited August 26, 2015 by ccstat

[Oudeis he/him]

I don't see a confirmation there that he knows she can Soulcast, or that her order is the Lightweavers.

[Witborn]

Well he does say that she is a soulcaster, not that she has one, which implies he knows she can soulcast. And while he doesn't specifically say she's a lightweaver, he does say she has powers that he knows about and others don't.

[Oudeis he/him]

Oh right! He says he is due a broken Soulcaster, and she qualifies. I had forgotten that part.

 

Interesting. Keep in mind, he's a worldhopper. He might have access to knowledge or devices, or even arcana, which might reveal more to him than we realize. Perhaps he knows Hoid?

[Alfa he/him]

I am very sure that at least Hoid knowws him. And they share a certain similarity, but I can't pinpoint it.

[Moogle]

Another thing: Pattern glows garnet in Bladeform, and quite a few people would have seen that. Given the Ars Arcanum's chart, it seems likely any ardent could connect her to Shalash from that.

[hoser he/him]

I like Moogle's point. 

I can also imagine that he may have had reports from Kabsal or others in Kharbranth about Shallan's drawing abilities, as Kabsal may have been a Ghostblood.  Once it is revealed that Shallan is a Radiant, then maybe it can be deduced that she is a Lightweaver.  From there, wondering about Veil could allow them to connect dots. 

[Ari he/him]

She showed her drawing skills while creating the map to the oathgate, that would be enough of a clue to point Mraize in the right direction. Figuring out that she's a Lightweaver shouldn't have been too hard from there given her skill with disguises and the fact that she revealed that she's a Radiant.

 

Also Veil is essentially just a slight modification of Shallan's features that mostly looks older and darkeyed- something very easy for a Lightweaver to fake but not something that could be used as a disguise by anyone else. Once you know Shallan is a Lightweaver, it becomes a lot more obvious who Veil is, especially if someone has met one of her identities and seen the other. If you only know she's a Knight Radiant, then Veil is an excellent disguise, as Mraize implies above.

[Michael Portz he/him]

Mraize self says that "by my estimations", so he probably just has a copy of the in-world Words of Radiance himself and uses his brain: When lightweaving is a given the actual Radiancy gives soulcasting as second ability with a 50% chance. Moogles garnet glow and her drawing skills increases this chance to something much higher (soulcasting garnet on Roshar was red, right?).

 

Mraize does not need certainty to act like he does and get what he wants.

[Alfa he/him]

StAr Garnet is more discribed as violet, but from the surgebinding chart we see, that it is red with a violet touch-

[Humpty he/him]

All those in favor of Mraize getting a slow and pain death say AYE!!!!

[Alfa he/him]

Mraize is an evil, psychopatic piece of crem. Storm, if Rayse gets killed in the process of StAr, Mraize will be one of the first who will want to claim his shard.

[DreamEternal]

Uh, am I the only one who does not hate the villains I know almost nothing about?

Plus, I don't want anyone to have a slow, painful death. It seems... meaningless, punishing someone with unnecessary suffering for the sake of punishment itself. Maybe a quicky death so they can't be a threath, like Sadeas was given, maybe being humiliated and cast away or imprisioned. Maybe losing an eye or arm. But a slow and painful death? No.

[natc]

Yesh, we don't even know why he's doing this, and being a worldhopper he might be the most well informed guy in Urithiru right now for all we know.

Backstabbing is just typical of a secret organization outside the boundaries of law.

[Alfa he/him]

I don't exactly hate Mraize. To a point, i feel somehow...sorry for him. But he has certain traits, that are psychopatic. Sadism (even heavier than Balat's), cruelty (for example toward the innocent transportmen). On the other hand, he is also sympathetic and intelligent. Dangerous combination. Very dangerous. And so far I know both (not very much, but we have a few hints), Rayse's Portfolio and Mraize's look surprising similar.

[DreamEternal]

Yeah, I was mostly oposed to the "slow and painful" part, since I also don't think Mraize is up to anything good. Still, I hope we discover something that makes it nore ambiguous, since Brandon's books have a distinct black and white moral division that gets tiring. Not that having amoral "heros" just in it for themselves would be better, of course.

[natc]

I don't exactly hate Mraize. To a point, i feel somehow...sorry for him. But he has certain traits, that are psychopatic. Sadism (even heavier than Balat's), cruelty (for example toward the innocent transportmen). On the other hand, he is also sympathetic and intelligent. Dangerous combination. Very dangerous. And so far I know both (not very much, but we have a few hints), Rayse's Portfolio and Mraize's look surprising similar.

So he's a less boastful and happy Kelsier?

[Alfa he/him]

So he's a less boastful and happy Kelsier?

 

I don't think, that Kelsier enjoyed "unnecessary" (his definition of "unnecessary") deaths; but yes, they are not unlike each other. Kelsier could change. Can Mraize?