Craters?

[Miyabi]

With this little theory I'm going to accept my theory that before the abandonment of the Oathpact Urithiru was located in Shadesmar, then found its way to the physical world when the Heralds' power no longer held it there. Perhaps these craters are the entryways the 10 kingdoms used to get to Shadesmar and Urithiru. This would put them just a short ways from the city and would make landing stations for large number of people to come at once. Perhaps these craters are just how this rifts or entryways manifested themselves when they entered the physical world.

[Gloom]

Or they may be the remains of the buildings in which the ten orders were located if Urithiru fell out of Shadesmar and shattered the plains. We can assume that the Shattered Plains are shattered because of some kind of energy release, and an entire city being ejected from Shadesmar would certainly manifest a large release of energy. I will agree that it's possible that the Shattered Plains are a gateway to Urithiru, but I find it at least as likely that the Shattered Plains are the remains of Urithiru.

[hoser]

Jasnah tells us that the Radiants abandoned Urithiru before the Recreance.  They lived in Alethkar, but trained in Urithiru, in the starfalls vision.  I don't think we know the relative timing of the destruction of Natanatan and the Recreance, nor what happened to the Radiants thereafter.  If the destruction of Natanatan followed the Recreance, I suppose the orders could have set up structures in a semicircle in Natanatan, but it seems kinda random. 

 

On a meta level, I think Brandon has made too great an investment in Urithiru for it to just be a pile of rubble.  I think it still exists in some form and our budding Radiants will visit it. 

[Miyabi]

I think, as I stated in another thread, that the Plains themselves are Urithiru. It's no longer in the West, because it was west of Alethkar only due to spacial differentiation between the Physical and Cognitive Realms. It's the Plains because the buildings became covered in Crem over the last 4,500 years.

[Shardlet]

I am uncertain of two things with this idea.  If Urituru was in a location in SHadesmar which correlated with a location in the physical realm West of Alethela, why would it have ended up east of Alethela upon leaving Shadesmar? 

 

Also, if it left Shadesmar, why would it have come out at a location of substantially higher elevation than the ground in the physical?  I doubt that if you left Shadesmar at a location which correlated to a mountain in the physical realm you would end up inside the mountain.  Otherwise, use of Shadesmar for travel and worldhopping would be astoundingly hazardous.

 

Also the crem covered city appears to be largely intact.  If if fell out of Shadesmar and dropped, then I would expect that it would be unlikely for towers and other structures to remain so intact.  Particularly after a couple of thousand years being buffeted by tens of thousands of extraordinarily intense storms.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Shardlet

[Gloom]

I am uncertain of two things with this idea.  If Urituru was in a location in SHadesmar which correlated with a location in the physical realm West of Alethela, why would it have ended up east of Alethela upon leaving Shadesmar? 

 

Also, if it left Shadesmar, why would it have come out at a location of substantially higher elevation than the ground in the physical?  I doubt that if you left Shadesmar at a location which correlated to a mountain in the physical realm you would end up inside the mountain.  Otherwise, use of Shadesmar for travel and worldhopping would be astoundingly hazardous.

 

 As for the first, Id have to assume that according to the map of Shadesmar, if it dropped into Roshar in the same physical location it sat in Shadesmar, it would sink. So effort would have had to be taken to alter where the city would appear because if it was simply expelled from Shadesmar, it would have appeared in the Oceans of Roshar.

 

As for the second part, maybe they were trying to do the calculations after they lost access to their spren and screwed it up. Perhaps it was in the mountains in Shadesmar, and they failed to account for altitude, or perhaps it didn't fall, but appeared in a location where other objects already existed leading to an energy release.

[Shardlet]

If it is in the shattered plains and it did come from Shadesmar, I can get behind a massive release of energy.  Falling doesn't wash for me.  I doubt that relative altitudes make a difference since 'land' and 'sea' are switched between physical and Shadesmar.  In other words, the portions of Shadesmar which correlate to land in the physical would be of fairly uniform altitude (i.e., sea level) while the physical realm is anything but uniform elevetion.  Like I said, it would make worldhopping nearly impossible to be done safely.  In almost every case you would be dropped or end up inside something else.  And I am very dubious about moving Urituru from one location in Shadesmar to another.  Though it is the cognitive realm, we are still dealing with a physical construction.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Shardlet

[Miyabi]

I have this same discussion going on in two separate threads. Let's just continue there conversation on theother thread.

[Oudeis]

I think, as I stated in another thread, that the Plains themselves are Urithiru. It's no longer in the West, because it was west of Alethkar only due to spacial differentiation between the Physical and Cognitive Realms. It's the Plains because the buildings became covered in Crem over the last 4,500 years.

Hey. I just found this. I was about to post... more or less exactly this theory, though it seems you've beaten me to it. I have a few supporting arguments for this theory I'd like to share: Do you have another post where you explain this more fully?

[Miyabi]

Hey. I just found this. I was about to post... more or less exactly this theory, though it seems you've beaten me to it. I have a few supporting arguments for this theory I'd like to share: Do you have another post where you explain this more fully?

Yeah. In this thread I talk about it a lot and we discuss potential holes in the theory.

The word "this" in the last sentence is a link to another thread. haha.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Miyabi

[Shardlet]

I got the impression somewhere the craters used to be domed buildings back when the plains were a city.

 

Nobody ever addressed this idea at the time it was offered.  But something occured to me yesterday.  The craters absolutely could not have been the remains of large domed buildings (or any shaped buildings for that matter).  There is no way such a construction could be built (even if it was a single piece) that was large enough to house up to about 10,000 people with open spaces for shops, military training, and battle staging.  The materials simply do not exist that could support such stresses.

[Gloom]

Nobody ever addressed this idea at the time it was offered.  But something occured to me yesterday.  The craters absolutely could not have been the remains of large domed buildings (or any shaped buildings for that matter).  There is no way such a construction could be built (even if it was a single piece) that was large enough to house up to about 10,000 people with open spaces for shops, military training, and battle staging.  The materials simply do not exist that could support such stresses.

 

On Earth, this would be correct. Roshar has lower gravity which would provide lower stress levels. We can also assume that at least some of the materials were soul cast. Provided they had the engineering expertise, these factor could feasibly move impossible to improbable. I'd almost go so far as to say that building anything in an unsheltered area and expecting it to withstand Highstorm after Highstorm was impossible, but we have cities in Roshar, and not all of them are hidden away.

[Shardlet]

The reduced gravity is important to consider, but this structure would have to be something like a minimum 1/2 mile in diameter (and I think that that is generously conservative).  On top of which, the destruction of such a structure would result in an enormous amount of debris which I would expect would easily fill in or at least substantially fill in the craters.

[Gloom]

How about we settle on that they could plausibly have been walled in mustering areas for the KR. One for each order. Give the Heralds or, later, KR leadership a place to address their troops. Regardless of whether their were enough KR to fill them, we have some pretty strong evidence that they weren't the only warriors fighting. In the event these are the remains of Urithiru, it would make sense to train these warriors in a central location. This would be even more likely during the time when people could be shuffled about through gates.

 

I'm going to agree that these were unlikely to have been finished buildings. On top of what you've already pointed out, we can also assume that at least some excavation has been done in the camps. Latrines are the very least of what some of the Highlords may have had excavated over the past five or six years. Stone may have been quarried for some of the buildings, etc. I doubt a lot of excavation has been done, but I don't doubt that enough has been done that someone would have found evidence that they were buildings by now had that been the case.

[Shardlet]

I can agree with that.