Boongeebee Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 How does the Steel Ministry support itself? It has been a little while since I read the books, but I don't remember any taxes. I remember only a few ways the Ministry gets money1. The nobility pays Obligators to witness things, but that seemed to go to the individual Obligator and didn't seem to be that much money.2. The plantation nobility also leased the Skaa, but that doesn't seem to be enough to support a government. Especially with all the "special" projects done by the Lord Ruler.3. Atium. Again doesn't seem to make enough money for an entire government. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 I dunno. Taxes? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil_Reptile Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 Well, I don't think Steel Inquisitor-ing pays much, other than having superpowers and a high rank. As for the Obligators, I think you might be underestimating just how much witnessing they do, since, apparently, they witness everything "As simple as promise to come to a game of shelldry." . Also, they run the bank, so that has to count for something. Finally, according to the wiki, the Canton of Resource handles "trade, transport, and taxation", so I guess there are taxes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boongeebee Posted August 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 I thought there must be taxes, after all what government doesn't tax it's people. Thanks for the info! I am running a MAG campaign where the crew is trying to topple a great house. I was trying to think of secrets the house could have that would be damaging. I figured doing something against the Steel Ministry would fit the bill, but no tax evasion with no taxes and I couldn't remember taxes mentioned in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sovereign Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 How does the Steel Ministry support itself? It has been a little while since I read the books, but I don't remember any taxes. I remember only a few ways the Ministry gets money 1. The nobility pays Obligators to witness things, but that seemed to go to the individual Obligator and didn't seem to be that much money. 2. The plantation nobility also leased the Skaa, but that doesn't seem to be enough to support a government. Especially with all the "special" projects done by the Lord Ruler. 3. Atium. Again doesn't seem to make enough money for an entire government. The bulk is definitely taxes, there are references to nobility making use of the underground's smuggling operations to avoid TLR's taxes. Also, I suspect you are underestimating how much the nobility were actually paying for Atium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boongeebee Posted August 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 Thanks! Also, I suspect you are underestimating how much the nobility were actually paying for Atium. Possibly, but not every house in the Final Empire had Atium. Kelsier asks Dockson who to raid for Atium in early in Mistborn: The Final Empire, so not all houses had a stash. Also, if you don't have a mistborn or need to hire a kandra, why would you keep some on hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 The atium is a big deal; the prices are insane. Even if it's just a few Houses that have the atium, they have traded/whatever with other Houses, accumulated great wealth, and traded it in for the atium. Taxes are onerous. Not just on shipping goods via canal, which is a lot, but there's a tax mentioned just to maintain a Keep. Again, only the ten Great Houses, but again, those ten have a solid chunk of the wealth of the whole empire. They're sorta the funnel that brings money from every House, however small, eventually to the Ministry. And we know they have contracts and deals just like other Houses. They pay people to transport acolytes and money for payroll; they might have contracts to provide services. I believe it's mentioned in an annotation, or WoB, that you must file a form with a fee to the ministry when you want to legally assassinate someone. Killing a rival without permission is a crime, if I'm remembering correctly. All skaa, therefore literally all labor, and all Obligators are leased from the Ministry. That is... mind-shattering amounts of money there. Even if it's a few clips per skaa, one relatively small plantation leases hundreds of them. That's going to add up quickly, and the Obligators likely cost much, much more. Especially since you can lease a minor one, or a very, very high ranked one, which must cost way more. As to why you'd buy atium, there are reasons. Market speculation. Vanity. To make people believe you do have a Mistborn. If I were in a rivalry with a House, I might try to buy enough atium for a standard kandra contract, and make sure the spies of the other House found out. Let them cull their own trusted advisors looking for my phantom spy, while I spend the actual atium secretly to get something of value from a House that does have a Mistborn. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boongeebee Posted August 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 Are the city Skaa leased? I believe they got paid. Not enough to actually accumulate wealth, but they seemed slightly better off than the plantation Skaa. They were not kept track of like plantation skaa. How else could the crew walk around without being conscripted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 Atium also pays for kandra contracts, mind. Even without mistborn there is reason to buy atium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 Are the city Skaa leased? I believe they got paid. Not enough to actually accumulate wealth, but they seemed slightly better off than the plantation Skaa. They were not kept track of like plantation skaa. How else could the crew walk around without being conscripted? I'll try to remember to look it up when I go home, but when Vin is going to the food place to watch Kelsier recruit, I think she says the food place is paid by the House that owns the skaa working in nearby mills. Maybe the House just owns the mills themselves? I suppose I could see a model where they run a mill, and whoever shows up to work at the mill is allowed to work, and is given the food tokens. The skaa not actually leased directly. Since the skaa are all expressly owned by the Lord Ruler, however, it seems unlikely, given that he leases them to the plantations, that he doesn't collect something from it. Perhaps if he doesn't lease the individual skaa, there's a tax placed on any House which runs a mill or factory or whatever within Luthadel to use its workforce? I'm not positive what your point is when you talk about the Crew walking around without being conscripted. As you say, the plantation skaa are kept track of. This doesn't stop Kelsier from wandering in and out, or other travelers mentioned in that prologue chapter, the ones who wander from plantation to plantation bringing news. So, I'd say, the city skaa are exactly as monitored as plantation skaa. As long as enough of them are working, no one really cares if there are three more or less today than yesterday. Also, the crew mostly are in the street. Trying to spend the night at a tenement or, worse, trying to actually join a work crew, would probably cause them to run into someone guarding/counting. Of course, there are the few unique skaa like Clubs. Not positive what their deal is. They appear to be allowed to operate with actual cash. Is he allowed to purchase his own wood, tools, screws, supplies? They don't really get into it. He's clearly allowed to choose his own apprentices, since they're mostly his trainee Smokers, and the women who run his kitchen are trusted enough to see that there's a crew here. Does he simply have an incredibly lax master? Or is he as independent as any skaa can ever be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zathoth Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 It is possible that Clubs got some extra privileges because he used to serve in TLRs army. Like being able to run his own business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 They indicate that Clubs belongs to a class of skaa who all live much as he does. I guess they could all be veterans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2015 Report Share Posted August 19, 2015 From memory (my analysis): Atium is insanely expensive, and TLR/Steel Ministry is the only source for it. (This means the price is variable, and if the Steel Ministry ever starts to run low on funds they can simply increase the price) Luthadel Keep taxes are very high (So high that the richest Great House has trouble paying the Keep tax while purchasing Atium. Imagine a tax rate so high that Microsoft and Apple were 1 bad product launch away from Bankruptcy every year) All Skaa are the property of TLR (this doesn't necessarily mean individual Skaa are leased. I've imagined this more as a "you pay for what you use" system. So on a plantation it's pretty straight forward, you have 115 Skaa and you pay for 115 Skaa day after day until one dies/is born, then it becomes 114/116; but in the city a factory opens and has space for 200 workers, and if 179 show up you pay TLR for 179 Skaa.) Obligator Witnessing is an absolute necessity to any type of agreement, and is a paid service. (Although each transaction is a small amount, I can easily see this being a very profitable revenue stream for the Steel Ministry. Rather than bringing in large payments, it works like a Wal-Mart system with thousands upon thousands of small transactions and effectively zero overhead costs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquirrel59 Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 I've always had head canon as well that when a noble decides to kill a Skaa, he has to pay the Ministry for their value (not high, but there are a lot of random Skaa killings). It would mostly be seen as a nuisance tax, but it would add up, particularly on the plantations (and even moreso with those who like to enjoy their Skaa women like the one in the prologue of TFE). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Knight Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 I've always thought that once the skaa were leased, they were yours to use. You could kill them, use them as workers, or whatever. If they die, you don't have to pay a price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 I suspect it's not specifically ennumerated like that, but lease is like rent. If you lease a group of skaa, you pay for those skaa. If you kill half the skaa, i doubt they'll give you a discount and tell you you now only have to pay half... Still, coupons in the Final Empire must've been weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 (edited) The skaa weren’t actually Tresting’s property. Like all skaa, they belonged to the Lord Ruler; Tresting only leased the workers from his God, much in the same way he paid for the services of His obligators.TFE, Prologue.That's the only specific description, from a Nobel viewpoint, or Skaa ownership that I can remember. Edited September 7, 2015 by LabRat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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