The Nature of Allomancy as it relates to AonDor

[tobar14]

Question

We all know what allomancy does, but do we really know how it does it?  Not the physics of it or the outcome, but the method in which the user gains access to Preservation's power.

 

Information Gathering

I was bored at work, reading up on the basics of allomancy on The Coppermind website, and I came across a line that made me start thinking.

 

"Metal is not the source of Allomancy's power. Rather, metal is what is called a focus--a necessary component to a manifestation of Investiture (magic system), but not the source of the power itself. When an Allomancer burns a metal, that metal's specific molecular structure acts as a conduit to Preservation, and then the Allomancer is granted an ability corresponding to the metal, hence the metal "focuses" Preservation's power to the user. Each metal is the only way a mortal can access Preservation and the power of creation's power. Afterwards, the metal is vaporized."

 

Doesn't that sound like another magic system that we know about...AonDor??? I will replace the Scadrial words for Selish words.

 

"Aons are not the source of an Elantrian's power. Rather, Aons are what is called a focus--a necessary component to a manifestation of Investiture (magic system), but not the source of the power itself.  When an Elantrian draws an Aon, that Aon's specific structure acts as a conduit to the Dor, and then the Elantrian is granted an ability corresponding to the Aon, hence the Aon "focuses" the Dor's power to the user. Each Aon is the only way a mortal can access the Dor and the power of creation's power. Afterwards, the Aon dissipates."

 

Putting the Pieces Together

So, in my head I have this idea that AonDor and Allomancy have a foundational similarity...cool, so what?

 

Well a big part of Sanderson's cosmere is belief/perception/intent.  Kaladin doesn't heal the scars on his head because the perception of him includes those scars.  Basically, you can only do what you think you can do (within the limits of that magic system, of course).  So what if the only reason allomancers swallow metal is because they "think" that is the only way to gain access to Preservations power.  

 

Earlier I mentioned how that it's not the actual metal; rather it is the molecular structure of that metal that is the focus.  According to the AonDor page on The Coppermind, 

 

"It appears that the energy can only get to the Physical Realm in certain pulse lengths and frequencies, so an Aon’s shape only allows for a certain frequency to escape, which has a specific effect".

 

That sounds very similar to Allomancy, in the sense that each metal has a specific molecular structure that only allows for a certain frequency of Preservation's power to escape, which has a specific effect.

 

Wrapping it Up

I theorize that a person on Scadrial that has snapped, much like a person on Sel with Aonic decent that has been chosen by the Shaod, has the ability to draw and/or craft molecules as a focus for the power to manifest in the physical realm.

 

The only reason we haven't seen this on Scadrial is because when allomancy was discovered, it was discovered as a process of ingesting metals (probably on accident), and a lack of understanding lead the people to believe that this is the only way to use allomancy (if it's not broken, don't fix it).  The lack of understanding of the magic itself, coupled with the lack of understanding of chemistry and molecular structure, has caused the people of Scadrial to think/act this way since allomancy was discovered.

 

I think that this is what we will discover the southern hemisphere Scadrial people have been tinkering with, and possibly the future books will involve this practice, where chemistry might be more prevalent.

 

What do you all think?

 

[Boongeebee]

I always believed that the metal needed to be in their stomach in order to "burn" it. I wonder if it has something to do with metals inside someone else being hard to affect with allomancy. I suppose that maybe it's a force of will to "burn" a metal and the location doesn't matter. If so, what happens when two allomancers try to "burn" the same piece of metal outside of their body?

[tobar14]

I always believed that the metal needed to be in their stomach in order to "burn" it. I wonder if it has something to do with metals inside someone else being hard to affect with allomancy. I suppose that maybe it's a force of will to "burn" a metal and the location doesn't matter. If so, what happens when two allomancers try to "burn" the same piece of metal outside of their body?

They wouldn't be "burning" anything.  They would just need to draw or craft the shape of the molecule, with the intent of using it for allomancy. Similar to how in order to create a functional Aon, an Elantrian must intend to do so.

 

It's the shape of the molecular structure of the metal that matters, not the actual metal.  In this theory, the ingesting and burning of metal is a rudimentary method. Also, a logical train of thought would lead you to believe that if an Elantrian of Aonic descent that has been chosen by the shaod could ingest something that is in the shape of an Aon, and "burn" it much like someone from Scadrial would burn a metal.

 

Access to Preservation's power is given by having the right molecular structure, just like AonDor.  The metals they burn just happen to be composed of those structures, so that makes them an efficient source of fuel for allomancers.  In this new method, they wouldn't rely on metals for fuel, they could just draw or create a scale model of a copper molecule or something like that.

[Boongeebee]

So, your theory suggests that someone who has snapped would only need to have a model of a pewter (or any other allomantic metal) molecule and channel preservation through it in order to gain the benefits of said metal?

[tobar14]

So, your theory suggests that someone who has snapped would only need to have a model of a pewter (or any other allomantic metal) molecule and channel preservation through it in order to gain the benefits of said metal?

Imagine it functioning just like AonDor. They can't just stumble upon something that happens to be in the shape of the necessary focus.  The person needs to be the one creating the shape with the intent to use it as a focus for power (that's what the coppermind says about AonDor).

 

However, for both magic systems, if you ingest something that is in the shape of the necessary focus, you can bypass the requirement of having to create it yourself, with the intent.

 

Allomancy:

• They can ingest things of a certain shape to gain power (known)
• They can draw/craft things of a certain shape with the intent of using it as a focus of power (How AonDor works, also my theory)

AonDor:

• They can ingest things of a certain shape to gain power (How Allomancy works, also my theory)
• They can draw/craft things of a certain shape with the intent of using it as a focus of power (known)

   

Both parties just don't know that they can do that, and I think that they will begin to discover this in future books.

[Boongeebee]

I think the two systems are fundamentally different.  AonDor seems to affect mostly external things and Allomancy seems to affect mostly internal things.  It is an interesting theory though.

[tobar14]

Haha well my initial post is about how they are fundamentally the same.  In both cases, the magic user needs to provide a specific shape in order to gain access to the magic.  

 

Sanderson has stated before that all the magic systems are based off of the same rules, and one user can use the investiture of another system (we don't know how yet). So again, all the magic systems are fundamentally the same, its the intent of the shard that influences what the magic can do.

 

Allomancy is completely balanced in how it effects internal things and external.  There is a table for it.  We don't know enough about AonDor to make that same claim, but thats not the point.  My point isn't about how the outcomes of the magics are different, that is obvious.  The point is that the means to get the magic (having the specific shape) is almost exactly the same.  The shape of the structure grants access, and filters the power to a specific outcome.

[Moogle]

Sanderson has noted this similarity (see blue text):

Open The Fridge
Ok, last question. It was really difficult coming up with three questions that haven’t been asked already...

Brandon Sanderson
OK... you’re not going to ask me the “what would you ask me” question?

Open The Fridge
Not quite...

Brandon Sanderson
OK good, because I hate that one! (laughs)

Open The Fridge
My question is if there’s anything that you’ve never been asked that you would like to talk about?

Brandon Sanderson
Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].

People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.

Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.
(source)

 

That said, I don't really agree with the presented idea. The 'shape' of a molecule is not so readily drawn up. For one, it's 3D, and for two, the models used in physics/chemistry are (useful) simplifications and quantum physics is really going to mess with any idea of a single shape. Perhaps this just means there's leeway in making the model, but I'm pretty doubtful.

[tobar14]

Moogle: Thanks for that WoB! Good point on the shape of the molecule. I fully agree.

 

Counterpoint: Aon's are based on the shape of Elantris.  Yet, isn't Elantris a 3 dimensional place?  When you draw an Aon, it is flat, but Elantris is certainly not flat.

 

 

This goes back to my idea about perception, and what the user thinks/believes.  If they fully believe that its "close enough" to the ideal (the idea of itself in the cognitive realm) then maybe it works.  Otherwise Elantrians would have to draw in elevation differences.

 

Maybe we (us in the phyiscal realm) need some pattern (metal molecules, aon shapes, auditory commands, bond between specific spren) in the physical realm to help us focus on.  Us focusing on the idea is what connects us to the ideal of itself which lies in the cognitive realm.  The ideal of itself is the bridge between the spiritual and physical. 

 

1. There is a bridge in the cognitive realm (the ideal of the focus in the physical realm)

2. Someone in the physical realm focuses on that focus (burning metal, drawing aons, giving a command to an awakened object, focusing on the ideals that formed the nahel bond)

3. The focusing on the focus connects us to that bridge in the cognitive realm

4. Spiritual energy flows from the spirit realm, through that bridge, and is then filtered by the actual focus in the physical realm.

[Moogle]

Moogle: Thanks for that WoB! Good point on the shape of the molecule. I fully agree.

 

Counterpoint: Aon's are based on the shape of Elantris.  Yet, isn't Elantris a 3 dimensional place?  When you draw an Aon, it is flat, but Elantris is certainly not flat.

 

Aons are vaguely tied to the geography of Arelon. And I mean vaguely. An 'x' marks an area with high Cognitive activity in one Aon. So I don't agree on the 3D argument for Aons at all. You'd have an amazingly huge amount of leeway for Allomancy if you could be that vague with practicing it with non-metals, to such a degree that I'd be shocked that no one had discovered it. Surely a Mistborn somewhere has drawn a bunch of circles together on a piece of paper.

 

I do accept a general idea of "AonDor's Aons are Cognitively influenced". AonDor is region locked, while Allomancy is able to be used anywhere with any metal. This implies that the Dor is more limited to the Cognitive (which is regional) than the Spiritual (in which location is mostly irrelevant). By a similar trail of thought, however, I'd argue Allomancy as more Spiritual. Here's a WoB on the matter. It has some discussion on the idea.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Moogle

[Oudeis]

While I agree that AonDor and Allomancy obviously share one fundamental similarity, your extension of that one similarity to assume that several other aspects are also similar is, I believe, flawed.

 

Among other things, you bring up that people only swallow metals because they believe they have to. This pre-supposes, then, that the first person ever to use Allomancy knew what it was and how to use it, and thought to himself, "I am going to intentionally swallow this metal and then access its power" to fit your model. Keep in mind that as far back as Alendi, he didn't even know that allomancy was a thing, and instinctively used the power anyway without intent.

 

In short, while it's possible someone could just draw a picture of an iron molecule on a piece of paper and then make it disappear in order to pull metal to their body, I think it's very, very premature to suspect this could actually be the case. However, if we learn one day that it was always that easy and that simply no one ever thought to try it, you may tell me that you told me so.

 

That is one huge difference between Allomancy and AonDor. Allomancy can be done instinctively and without knowledge that you're even doing it. AonDor cannot. If your hand travels through the air, it will not start drawing with light unless you specifically will it to. Similarly, if someone in MaiPon happened to be doodling and by sheer coincidence stumbled upon a pattern that would make a crude but technically effective forgery stamp, I suspect it would have all the arcane might of a lace doily.

 

Finally, as this is the Mistborn forum, I would recommend it get moved to the Cosmere Knowledge forum, as there are already many hefty Elantris spoilers.

[tobar14]

While I agree that AonDor and Allomancy obviously share one fundamental similarity, your extension of that one similarity to assume that several other aspects are also similar is, I believe, flawed.

 

Among other things, you bring up that people only swallow metals because they believe they have to. This pre-supposes, then, that the first person ever to use Allomancy knew what it was and how to use it, and thought to himself, "I am going to intentionally swallow this metal and then access its power" to fit your model. Keep in mind that as far back as Alendi, he didn't even know that allomancy was a thing, and instinctively used the power anyway without intent.

 

In short, while it's possible someone could just draw a picture of an iron molecule on a piece of paper and then make it disappear in order to pull metal to their body, I think it's very, very premature to suspect this could actually be the case. However, if we learn one day that it was always that easy and that simply no one ever thought to try it, you may tell me that you told me so.

 

That is one huge difference between Allomancy and AonDor. Allomancy can be done instinctively and without knowledge that you're even doing it. AonDor cannot. If your hand travels through the air, it will not start drawing with light unless you specifically will it to. Similarly, if someone in MaiPon happened to be doodling and by sheer coincidence stumbled upon a pattern that would make a crude but technically effective forgery stamp, I suspect it would have all the arcane might of a lace doily.

 

Finally, as this is the Mistborn forum, I would recommend it get moved to the Cosmere Knowledge forum, as there are already many hefty Elantris spoilers.

How do I move a topic?

 

The reason I posted it in Mistborn was because I was using this theory as a leap towards what is going on in the south pole of scadrial.  How do they use allomancy with machines?

[Minsk Ghoul]

Symbols.

This is interesting that all metals have allomantic symbol and feruchemical one as well, while in hemalurgy they don't.

Hemalurgy can be processed by anyone.

Allomancer burn metal and it's give power to himself. Feruchemist fill the metal with his power and when he tap he get power for himself. But anyone can use hemalurgy to steal power from anyone and give it to anyone. Hemalurgy is already have focus - intent of using hemalurgy and specific algorithm of actions, while others magic powers just work naturally.

 

So not a model of atomic structure, but steel alphabet and feruchemical symbols can replace straight contact with metal, IMHO.

[Ascendant Warrior]

I've been thinking about these similarities as well, and one thing I've thought of is about compounding.  Aons each have a base form, but an adept can add modifiers to strengthen the power or specify specific regions of the body for healing, rather than healing the whole body.  A sub-theory then would be that compounders, when they store their feruchemical attribute, add modifiers to the existing atoms that channel the investiture into releasing the feruchemical attribute when burned, instead of the allomantic ability.

 

 

More on the topic however, I also disagree that drawing or making a model of the atom would never work.  However, I agree that ingesting the metal may not be the only way to trigger Allomancy.

[WindrunnerRadiant]

One thing I would like to point out is that we already have seen Allomancy fueled by something besides metal; the mists. Of course, that is actually a part of the Shard of Preservation, so you would assume that it would be possible. Also, with all the references to the Dor, we know of four distinctly different ways to access its power, with varying results in the use of its power. The idea that there would be another way to access investiture on Scadrial isn't a crazy notion. However, to presuppose that the result would be anything like what we have already seen there is what I find faulty. What I do think that we can assume is that it will still involve the use of metals as a focus, just like the three known arts that access the power of the Dor has a focus in shapes (Aons for AonDor, the form of the motions in ChayShan, Stamps for Forgery, and the shape of their bones for Dakhor). 

Edited August 15, 2015 by WindrunnerRadiant

[Paragrin]

Five. Bloodsealing.

[Moogle]

One thing I would like to point out is that we already have seen Allomancy fueled by something besides metal; the mists. Of course, that is actually a part of the Shard of Preservation, so you would assume that it would be possible. Also, with all the references to the Dor, we know of four distinctly different ways to access its power, with varying results in the use of its power.

 

I don't believe this is entirely a valid comparison. The systems of Sel are all the same system, and the various geographical ways of accessing it seem to be parallels of the four different categories of Allomantic metals (with symbols acting as the parallel of different metals). This isn't really a different way of accessing the Dor's power. WoB:

Windrunner17 ()

Why does Scadrial, which has two Shards, only have three manifestations of investiture, (Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy) but Sel, also with two Shards, has five manifestations of investiture (AonDor, Dakhor, ChayShan, Forgery, and Bloodsealing)?

Brandon Sanderson

Sel's magics are much more regionalized than Scadrial's. Each area has its own manifestation, but they're all actually the same magic. So really there is one magic on Sel—much as Windrunning and Lightweaving on Roshar are kind of different magics, but also kind of the same.

(source)

 

A comparison between Allomancy via metals or mists and AonDor would require you to find a different way to get some Investiture from Devotion/Dominion. Maybe you could make a trip to the Cognitive, infuse yourself with some free-floating Dor (if there is much), and then will AonDor-like effects into being.

[Kairos]

I always believed that the metal needed to be in their stomach in order to "burn" it. I wonder if it has something to do with metals inside someone else being hard to affect with allomancy. I suppose that maybe it's a force of will to "burn" a metal and the location doesn't matter. If so, what happens when two allomancers try to "burn" the same piece of metal outside of their body?

That's actually a really interesting question, I think there's a WoB that says Allomancers don't actually have to ingest metals. On mobile, so I'll double-check in a bit. So, to carry on the parallels with AonDor, could an Elantrian merely touch an Aon to trigger it?

[natc]

I swear I read something about it being extremely painful for an Inquisitor to burn their own spikes. Which would imply that you can burn metal inside you stomach or otherwise.

[Ascendant Warrior]

That's actually a really interesting question, I think there's a WoB that says Allomancers don't actually have to ingest metals. On mobile, so I'll double-check in a bit. So, to carry on the parallels with AonDor, could an Elantrian merely touch an Aon to trigger it?

 

Isn't this precisely what they do to teleport across the city?

 

I swear I read something about it being extremely painful for an Inquisitor to burn their own spikes. Which would imply that you can burn metal inside you stomach or otherwise.

 

Source:

17th Shard: Can you burn the spikes? Like, Allomantically? For example, could they burn the steel in their head spikes?

Brandon: (sighs) I considered that and I eventually decided that they could, but it would be an excruciating process that would probably knock them unconscious simply by doing it.

[Mestiv]

I'd like to point out something regarding the AonDor and Allomancy similarity.

 

AonDor: You have one drawing, it does one thing and vanishes or stays (if craved on something) and does it all the time.

Allomancy: You have some metal, the longer you use it, the less you have. It's like you have quadrillions (or more, I don't really know how many molecules fit in a single vial of metal they use, but A LOT) of those molecules that give you access to power, and you burn them by thousands per second.

 

So, if an allomancer was to draw a molecule shape on a piece of paper and try to use it, it might work, sure... but I guess, the effect would be so weak, that it wouldn't be possible to notice.

[natc]

Btw, I just noticed the typo in the title and it bothers me . . .

[tobar14]

While I agree that AonDor and Allomancy obviously share one fundamental similarity, your extension of that one similarity to assume that several other aspects are also similar is, I believe, flawed.

 

Among other things, you bring up that people only swallow metals because they believe they have to. This pre-supposes, then, that the first person ever to use Allomancy knew what it was and how to use it, and thought to himself, "I am going to intentionally swallow this metal and then access its power" to fit your model. Keep in mind that as far back as Alendi, he didn't even know that allomancy was a thing, and instinctively used the power anyway without intent.

 

In short, while it's possible someone could just draw a picture of an iron molecule on a piece of paper and then make it disappear in order to pull metal to their body, I think it's very, very premature to suspect this could actually be the case. However, if we learn one day that it was always that easy and that simply no one ever thought to try it, you may tell me that you told me so.

 

That is one huge difference between Allomancy and AonDor. Allomancy can be done instinctively and without knowledge that you're even doing it. AonDor cannot. If your hand travels through the air, it will not start drawing with light unless you specifically will it to. Similarly, if someone in MaiPon happened to be doodling and by sheer coincidence stumbled upon a pattern that would make a crude but technically effective forgery stamp, I suspect it would have all the arcane might of a lace doily.

 

Finally, as this is the Mistborn forum, I would recommend it get moved to the Cosmere Knowledge forum, as there are already many hefty Elantris spoilers.

Vin didn't realize that she was using allomancy in the beginning of The Final Empire.  She happened to eat food or drink water that had some residual metals in it.

 

I think its entirely possible for someone to discover allomancy on accident (keep in mind this is a hypothetical scenario, I realize that allomancy wasn't well known pre-TLR). Here would be a possible scenario for how a society discovers and practices something new:

1. Person drinks water coming out of stream that flows out of an iron ore deposit

2. Person feels a weird well of power in their stomach

3. Person burns it, it goes away, they forget about it

4. Person drinks the water again, cause they are thirsty

5. Person realizes that after every time they drink the water they feel that power

6. Person goes to different stream to see if they power comes from the water

7. Person fails to get the same result

8. This probably happens in multiple places in the world at multiple times (sometimes with food or whatnot)

9. Finally someone puts it together that residual metals in the food or water they ingest gives them that power

10. Person tries ingesting pure metal (instead of with food) and they feel a big well of power

11. Hundreds of years pass, and now society is aware of allomancy, and the way they access it is by ingesting in

 

This has happened on Earth many many times. Someone discovers something, but we don't full understand it, but we can still use it.  Y'know, like Newtonian physics.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Except Einstein came along and was like, "no".  

 

The mind is a powerful thing, you can easily box yourself in and put limitations based on what you believe.  This is doubly true in the Cosmere, seeing as how the cognitive realm is heavily based on how the item perceives itself and others perceive it, plus the fact that the magic systems are tied to the realms...........

[Oudeis]

This... what are you saying here? You're making no sense. Your example works on the assumption that the person did initially have to ingest the metal in order to access it, but then you seem to be using it to say that it proves an assumption that you have to swallow it grew naturally. If all people needed was contact, why was there never a lurcher who held a shovel and realized, hey this iron is letting me pull metal to me? Your scenario only works if the laws of allomancy state, metal must be ingested. You cannot therefore use it to prove that people could have invented the idea of ingesting metal and trapped themselves thereby.

 

Vin, for example, has never had anything about allomancy explained to her. She says the flatware is made of pewter. Since she's instinctively burning pewter, why wouldn't she burn it every time she touches a plate?

[tobar14]

I was merely describing a scenario where a society could discover one way to use allomancy, when there is actually more than one way to use it.  They didn't "have" to ingest it, that was just the first way that person discovered it (in this scenario).  

 

This post was about Allomancy and my hypothesis on how it relates to AonDor, not how Allomancy was discovered.  In this hypotheses, I stated that ingesting metal probably ins't the only way to access Preservation's power.  A possible solution as to why other methods haven't been discovered is that nobody ever thought to question something that works.  Kinda like how nobody really questioned Hemalurgy.  A possible reason for why nobody questioned other methods of Allomancy is that TLR crushed change and the pursuit of knowledge/people have been doing it this way for so long, why rock the boat?

 

I don't think anyone said that all you had to do was touch the metal to use it. I did hypothesize that it is similar to AonDor, where you could draw the molecular structure and use that as a focus to funnel the power of Preservation.  But then with the help of Moogle and others I realized that that is unlikely due to the 3D structure of molecules, and the fact that it is just a graphical tool we use, and it doesn't reflect reality.  Then someone posted about the allomantic symbols being the focus (which I like).  

 

People on Nalthis haven't discovered all of the command phrases for Awakening, there are plenty of examples of cosmere people not fully understanding the magic that they use.

 

-There is always another secret