Forgery can replicate the effects of Awakening (Temporarily)

[LiquidBlue]

This theory is straight forward. Forgery realizes possible alternate histories. For example, if an artist once lived nearby, it is possible that perhaps they had painted a wall and thus a forger could forger a painting on the wall. In the presence of Awakeners, reasonable and possible alternate histories include the object being awakened. Therefore the knowledgeable Forger should be able to Forge the effects of awakening on an object.

 

It is not clear what exactly a breath is; although it seems to be a piece of the soul. Thus it seems that such a forgery could not permanent, but would fade and be rejected as all soul forgeries are.

 

The biggest question that remains is related to the nature of a breath. If breath is simple investiture, then forgery should be able to replicate the effects with no problem. If, however, breath is fragments of souls, it does not seem reasonable that forgery could create even temporarily such soul fragments. In this case, the theory then becomes, a Forger can take an awakened object and forge a different awakened object - either changing the command or perhaps changing who is in control.

[Chromium Compounder]

This theory is straight forward. Forgery realizes possible alternate histories. For example, if an artist once lived nearby, it is possible that perhaps they had painted a wall and thus a forger could forger a painting on the wall. In the presence of Awakeners, reasonable and possible alternate histories include the object being awakened. Therefore the knowledgeable Forger should be able to Forge the effects of awakening on an object.

It is not clear what exactly a breath is; although it seems to be a piece of the soul. Thus it seems that such a forgery could not permanent, but would fade and be rejected as all soul forgeries are.

The biggest question that remains is related to the nature of a breath. If breath is simple investiture, then forgery should be able to replicate the effects with no problem. If, however, breath is fragments of souls, it does not seem reasonable that forgery could create even temporarily such soul fragments. In this case, the theory then becomes, a Forger can take an awakened object and forge a different awakened object - either changing the command or perhaps changing who is in control.

Fun idea, but I don't think it would work. The belief that Biochromatic Breath is a piece of the soul never made sense to me. It is part of their religion that it is, but I think it is simply investiture bestowed by Endowment on all those born on Nalthis.

As for a Forger being able to forge something to believe it was awakened... Again, it's a fun idea, but I don't think forgery can fake investiture. If you could do that then why not forge yourself every morning so that at some point in your past you ate some Lerasium and became a mistborn, then you killed a shard bearer and took his shard blade. Fun to think about, but it doesn't seem like such a forgery would take, for anyone.

From what I read, it seems like Forgery is a net neutral magic system like Feruchemy. You can't add or remove with it, just alter, rearrange.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Fun idea, but I don't think it would work. The belief that Biochromatic Breath is a piece of the soul never made sense to me. It is part of their religion that it is, but I think it is simply investiture bestowed by Endowment on all those born on Nalthis.

Canonically, it's part of the soul.

 

http://brandonsanderson.com/annotation/400/Warbreaker-Chapter-Twenty-Two-Part-2

Vivenna is right about what happens to a person when they lose their Breath. It is a part of your soul

[Kadrok she/her]

Canonically, it's part of the soul.

 

http://brandonsander...enty-Two-Part-2

Vivenna is right about what happens to a person when they lose their Breath. It is a part of your soul

Lol, it's nice when things are straightforward...

[Chromium Compounder]

Canonically, it's part of the soul.

Hmm, that completely changes awakening... I guess Endowment must have made the people of Nalthis with the ability to give a piece of their souls to people and things. Ok. Well, I still don't think something could be awakened via forgery. I could be wrong though.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I'm going to say that using forgery for awakening would be too close to bloodsealing.  Which is apparently a different art.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2496-region-locked-magic/page-2#entry46050

In fact, let me say that (because I have unposted audio) Bloodsealing is not a subset of Forgery. They are related, but different.

[Truthless he/him]

I forget exactly how Shai explains Forgery, but what she's really doing is changing how the object views itself, right? Essentially changing the Physical via the Cognitive. But even if she was to convince an object that it was Invested, the power would still have to come from somewhere. Unless there were Aons involved, I don't see how that could happen.

[LiquidBlue]

As for a Forger being able to forge something to believe it was awakened... Again, it's a fun idea, but I don't think forgery can fake investiture. If you could do that then why not forge yourself every morning so that at some point in your past you ate some Lerasium and became a mistborn, then you killed a shard bearer and took his shard blade. Fun to think about, but it doesn't seem like such a forgery would take, for anyone.

From what I read, it seems like Forgery is a net neutral magic system like Feruchemy. You can't add or remove with it, just alter, rearrange.

 

I've already decided that if I get the chance to ask Brandon a question that I ask if a Forger who previously held a shardblade but gave it up could create an essence mark where they still had the blade.

 

I'm going to say that using forgery for awakening would be too close to bloodsealing.  Which is apparently a different art.

 

Bloodsealing would seem to be the appropriate art. I wonder how it works.The skeletons of the bloodsealers seem similar to awakening. I wonder if a sufficiently skilled bloodsealer with access to the blood of a sufficient number of people could affect objects in a manner similar to an Awakener.

 

I forget exactly how Shai explains Forgery, but what she's really doing is changing how the object views itself, right? Essentially changing the Physical via the Cognitive. But even if she was to convince an object that it was Invested, the power would still have to come from somewhere. Unless there were Aons involved, I don't see how that could happen.

 

I think that this just limits the amount of time such a forgery would endure. There would have to have been some possibility that the object might have been awakened in the past. I believe that all forgeries are invested objects. The seal not only describes the change to be made, but the structure of the seal shapes the Dor necessary for the change to happen.

 

Are there any thoughts or comments about the ability of a Forger to change the command or control of an awakened object?

[Senor Feesh]

I'm inclined to think this either wouldn't work at all, or would only take for a very short time (seconds or less). There's a quote somewhere about how Investiture interferes with magic systems, making Shardblades difficult to push or pull with allomancy

[Chromium Compounder]

I'm inclined to think this either wouldn't work at all, or would only take for a very short time (seconds or less). There's a quote somewhere about how Investiture interferes with magic systems, making Shardblades difficult to push or pull with allomancy

I think you are thinking of when Szeth says Shardplate interferes with Surgebinding. He says it's difficult to lash someone wearing plate, and if he were to wear plate it would interfere with his surgebinding. He says he has to choose between plate and surge binding (which is odd since the radiants had both).

Are there any thoughts or comments about the ability of a Forger to change the command or control of an awakened object?

Forging an already awakened object to have a different command I could believe. I think the new command would have to be something that didn't require more Breath than what is already in the object, but I think it would be possible to do. Edited June 7, 2013 by Windrunner
Please don't double post. You can just use multiquote if you need to quote many people.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I think you are thinking of when Szeth says Shardplate interferes with Surgebinding. He says it's difficult to lash someone wearing plate, and if he were to wear plate it would interfere with his surgebinding. He says he has to choose between plate and surge binding (which is odd since the radiants had both).

 

 

Hyrum Atkin ‏@SwiftxJustice 15 Jan 12

@BrandSanderson quick question to help me settle a debate. Could allomancy effect a shard plate/blade?

 

https://twitter.com/BrandSanderson/status/159044890074939392

@SwiftxJustice No. Investiture interferes with most magics.

[Senor Feesh]

Thanks PM, that's the quote

[Thought]

If breath is simple investiture, then forgery should be able to replicate the effects with no problem.

 

Why? Investiture doesn't come out of thin air: even if a forger could make a bit of cloth THINK that it's been awoken, the fact is, the cloth would still lack the investiture to actually be awoken.

[Leuthie]

Breath is an indentity-free piece of a person's soul. Everyone has this piece. Only Nalthisians can break it off and Endow it to someone else. The ability to do so is the Investiture. The only way to forge this is if there's a possibility that the person in question could have been born to Nalthisians.