Theory: Heralds & Shadesmar

[Windrunner he/him]

One of the first things that caught my attention when I read TWoK was this:

But I survived, Kalak thought, hand to breast as he hastened to the meeting place. I actually survived this time.

That was dangerous. When he died, he was sent back, no choice. When he survived the Desolation, he was supposed to go back as well. Back to that place that he dreaded. Back to that place of pain and fire. What if he just decided...not to go?

The idea that the Heralds actually had to travel somewhere to go back to Damnnation surprised me. This obviously isn't in a place that can be easily accessed, being so alien to the way Roshar is described. Obviously somewhere off-world or at least far away from the main Rosharan supercontinent. And we haven't heard any indication of the Heralds having to journey back to Damnation after the Desolations. It seems fairly clear to me that there has to be some other way to get to Damnation.

So, I think that the Heralds have access to Shadesmar and the knowledge of how to Worldhop. We know little of their abilities at this point, so it's at least plausible. It would certainly be useful in coordinating a worldwide defense against the Voidbringers. They can easily return to Damnation, be it on Roshar or elsewhere. Another point in favor is that, to Worldhop you go to Shadesmar. When Heralds die they automatically return, and we know that Shadesmar is where people seem to be going when they die, so that ties together quite nicely.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the Travel surge was based off a similar principle. I know this is kind of an insignificant, rinky-dink theory, but what do you guys think?

[hoser he/him]

Interesting.  I've been assuming, with no supporting evidence, that Shards could set up parts of the Spiritual Realm to suit themselves.  So I thought Odium had furnished an area of the Spiritual Realm as Damnation.  I assumed that was also how Honor did his projections with Dalinar. 

As for the Heralds, I assume that they have the same surges as the corresponding Radiant orders, at least.  I doubt they have spren, though. 

[Isomere]

I like the theory. You've already seen my thoughts on Damnation, but I have no idea where the location actually is, nor how the Heralds get there. The way Taln appears suddenly, dripping with condensation suggests a similar process to how Shardblades are summoned. I personally think his physical body was formed from Shardic Deposition directly from spirit energy, similar to the way Atium is formed. 

[Leuthie]

Brandon's not hiding that Heralds are "stored" in a similar place as Shardblades. We may learn more about Shardblades in WoR.

A bigger question is why they had to be tortured between Desolations?

[Senor Feesh]

I guess this comes back to us not really understanding the Oathpact still. We know they're supposed to go willingly into damnation if they survive the battle, so it's presumably a matter of keeping to honor and their oaths.

I suspect it's in some way similar to Ati and Leras' bargain. Let's assume Odium has the chance to try and destroy the world every 1000 years with a desolation (rather than constant desolations). The trade off for this is that he must have the Heralds to abuse and torture between desolations. Now that the Oathpact is broken, the next Odium won't have to wait another 1000 years before attempting to destroy everything, hence this next desolation being referred to as the Everstorm.

Which raises an interesting notion that the desolations usually would have had to be restricted in scope (perhaps another condition of the Oathpact). Either a time limit, or a limit on the amount of forces that could be brought to bear. Thoughts?

[Cayden]

Brandon's not hiding that Heralds are "stored" in a similar place as Shardblades. We may learn more about Shardblades in WoR.

A bigger question is why they had to be tortured between Desolations?

Its all tied to this principle of "it is better that one man must suffer than ten.." similar thoughts are quoted repeatedly by Kaladins father, ill have to re-read and find the exact ones at some point but I think it is something significant and tied to Honor.

 

As for why? I think that the Oathpact was a way for Odium to use their own sense of Honor against them to break them. "I will leave the world alone between desolations, but you must be tormented during the times between, do you believe in protecting people enough to suffer for them?"

 

I also think it also bound Odiums power in some way to stop him from using the full extent of his power.

[Leuthie]

I'm of a mind that the Oathpact was between Cultivation and Honor. Something along the lines of Cultivation not wanting humans on Roshar but agreeing to it as long as she can keep their numbers down. This culling was known as the Desolations and they also provided opportunity for Honorable service of Heroes via the Heralds. The Heralds simply slept in the Spiritual realm between and all was peachy.

Then along come Odium, who finds the storage place of the Heralds and turns it to a torture chamber to instill Hate in Honors greatest heroes...

I just don't see Odium striking a deal with those he wants to Splinter. I also dont see him as wanting to use his power to destroy Roshar. Take all look at Sel,

where Odium killed two Shards but left the world otherwise intact

Odium isn't evil. Honor's vision of a completely destroyed Roshar is the result of a mind that can only see black and white; he failed so the world is doomed...the Intent of Honor taken to the nth degree.

I see Odium tweaking existing things to turn them against those he wishes to harm. The Oathpact was between Honor and Cultivation, then corrupted by Hate.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Though I doubt it, that's a very interesting and (to my knowledge) fresh perspective, Leuthie.

[Meg]

Brandon's not hiding that Heralds are "stored" in a similar place as Shardblades. 

 

 

 

May I ask for a reference for this, please? 

 

 

edit: 

Re-reading the OP I have a question.

 

When Heralds die they automatically return, and we know that Shadesmar is where people seem to be going when they die, so that ties together quite nicely.

 

"We know that Shadesmar is where people seem to be going when they die ..." I'm sorry for not wholly understanding this: If we know than wouldn't that mean, we know that people are going to Shadesmar when they die (rather than "seem to be going")? I may have missed some informations, but I thought that people (on Roshar) go either to the Tranquiline Halls or Damnation. 

 

Or ...? 

 

That place that Szeth fears: 

 

Though his murders and sins would damnation him, at least his soul would be given to the stones upon his death. He would continue to exist. Punished, in agony, but not exiled to nothingness.

 

TWoK I-6

 

This could be a third place where dead people could have to go. 

 

I'm pretty sure that "Tranquiline Halls" =|= Shadesmar (IIRC). So, that would mean hat "nothingness" == Shadesmar? 

 

*confused* 

 

Edited May 21, 2013 by Meg

[Leuthie]

The description of Taln covered in condensation in the epilogue matches language decribing the same phenomenon when Shardblades are retrieved.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

"We know that Shadesmar is where people seem to be going when they die ..." I'm sorry for not wholly understanding this: If we know than wouldn't that mean, we know that people are going to Shadesmar when they die (rather than "seem to be going")? I may have missed some informations, but I thought that people (on Roshar) go either to the Tranquiline Halls or Damnation.

Well, Kelsier is hanging out in the cognitive realm at least, and shadesmar is a special case of the cognitive realm...

[Windrunner he/him]

There is at least one death vision of someone who seems to be describing Shadesmar as well.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

There is at least one death vision of someone who seems to be describing Shadesmar as well.

Yeah, but there's a death vision from what appears to be Kaladin's POV

Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.

So...

[Senor Feesh]

I wonder if some of these death visions may not be hints as to KR orders. The quote Phantom gives above is very like Kaladin's experience in the Highstorm, but what if others who could potentially become Windrunners have experienced this too? Maybe it wasn't that he was out in the storm that triggered his vision, but a near-death experience (albeit at the hands of the storm)?

 

This could also pan out with the vision of Shadesmar, as we know that Shallan and Jasnah go to Shadesmar to soulcast. Perhaps some of the other death visions correlate in some way to other KR abilities?

[Kurkistan he/him]

I wonder if some of these death visions may not be hints as to KR orders. The quote Phantom gives above is very like Kaladin's experience in the Highstorm, but what if others who could potentially become Windrunners have experienced this too? Maybe it wasn't that he was out in the storm that triggered his vision, but a near-death experience (albeit at the hands of the storm)?

 

This could also pan out with the vision of Shadesmar, as we know that Shallan and Jasnah go to Shadesmar to soulcast. Perhaps some of the other death visions correlate in some way to other KR abilities?

 

That quote is generally interpreted to be talking about when Kaladin is leaping the chasm to confront the Parshendi; saying the Second Ideal and sucking the stormlight out of their beards. Not his vision.

Edited May 22, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Senor Feesh]

That quote is generally interpreted to be talking about when Kaladin is leaping the chasm to confront the Parshendi; saying the Second Ideal and sucking the stormlight out of their beards. Not his vision.

Actually I can see that. The 'feast I must drink clings to their faces' could easily refer to the gemstones the Parshendi wear in their hair/beards.

[Dahak he/him]

Brandon's not hiding that Heralds are "stored" in a similar place as Shardblades. We may learn more about Shardblades in WoR.

A bigger question is why they had to be tortured between Desolations?

 

And do the Shardblades get similarly abused while stored?

[Leuthie]

Very possible. If Odium has access to all these "storage" places, he can change what's stored there. Change the heroes through torture. Change the weapons some other way.

[Meg]

Very possible. If Odium has access to all these "storage" places, he can change what's stored there. Change the heroes through torture. Change the weapons some other way.

 

 

Who are "the heroes"? 

[Leuthie]

The Heralds

[Meg]

Very possible. If Odium has access to all these "storage" places, he can change what's stored there. Change the heroes through torture. Change the weapons some other way.

 

 

Who are "the heroes"? 

 

 

The Heralds

 

 

Thanks for clarification. 

 

Next question: In which way do you think Odium changed the Heralds with torture. Eh, I mean: How did the Heralds change when possibly tortured by Odium? 

[Leuthie]

They walked away. From the PoV in the Prelude, it was the torture between Desolations that broke the spirits of the Heralds, not the Desolations nor their roles in them.

[skaa he/him]

Whether or not the Heralds can travel to Shadesmar without dying, can't they just go back through some kind of ritual suicide? I know that most Westernized people don't see suicide as an honorable action, and also that Syl didn't want Kaladin to kill himself, but I think the Heralds would be a special case.  I mean, it was their oath to return to that place of torture no matter what happens in battle. Under the Oathpact, their lives revolved around a strict honor code that involved fighting and dying, just like the Japanese samurai of old, so I could easily imagine the surviving Heralds, back when they respected their oaths, gathering at their assigned meeting place to carry out the Rosharian equivalent of Seppuku.

 

That could be why they abandoned their Honorblades. They knew that the only people they could honorably kill using those blades in between Desolations were themselves, so they decided not to carry them any longer.