The Two Forms and Three Names of the Dragon (theory)

[Cartith]

Ok, so the Creator is the one who supposedly created everything. But, as every book tells us, there are no beginnings or endings to the WoT. Therefore, that part of the Creator myth is out of the window. However, another frequently mentioned Creator myth is that He sealed the Dark One at the beginning of time. Again, no beginnings, so we could possibly assume that He sealed the Dark One a long time ago, and it faded into myth and legend and got mixed up as a creation myth. But who really sealed the Dark One in a prison with no Bore? The Dragon Reborn (Rand.) I propose that the Dragon has two forms. There's the Lews Therin Dragon, who seals the Bore, and the Dragon Reborn, who completely reseals the prison. The Dragon Reborn is then deified through myth and legend over thousands of years, and, in legend, becomes the Creator. 

[Aethling]

Interesting. . . 

[Branf]

I like this idea, but I'm not sure I completley agree with it. The fact that there are (at least) two forms of the Dragon makes perfect sense. As for the Dragon being the myhtological origin of the creator, it could be possible, however I think it is made very clear in the books that the creator is responsible for making the world, which is never the reponsibility of the Dragon. 

This doesn't contradict the idea of there being no beginings or endings so long as he stands outside of the pattern and outside of time itself i.e. he creates all of time at once. I'm not sure if this makes much sense to you but it makes sense in my head.

[Cartith]

Yes, I've done some more thinking since I posted, and this needs a little more twinking, as Rand obviously doesn't provide Saidin and Saidar. However, I think the myths of him and the Creator got combined through thousands of years. 

[makromag]

The thing that I can't fit into this idea is the strength required to do so. Rand was able to reseal the bore, a whole in the Dark Ones prison. However, creating such a thing in the first place would be magnitudes harder to accomplish and I don't think even Rand could do that.

[Lady_Yasha]

There's a passage in both Eye of the World (chapter 51) and A Memory of Light that sounds as if the Creator is talking directly to Rand. In the former, the Creator says the world's fate is down to the Chosen One, specifically referencing Rand. But it could still hold up to your theory if what Rand is hearing is an echo of a distant past when he was once born as the Dragon Reborn, much like he hears the voice of his predecessor as though it's a present and continuous voice.

[DocHoliday]

I remember reading TEotW 15 years ago distinctly. When Rand somehow Travels to Tarwin's Gap he hears what I have to interpret as the Creator's voice. It says, and I'm paraphrasing, I CANNOT TAKE A HAND DIRECTLY, IT IS TO TO MY CHAMPION TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF THE WHEEL. Now the capitalization, similar to the DO.

[Crysanja]

there is some kind of short story about the creation of the bore, i dont remember much, but you might find some answers there.

[Gamma Fiend]

Pretty much all of my post will be spoilers from AMoL, which im pretty sure is cool. So I wont use the spoier tag.


My first theory: The myth of the Creator is stemmed from the Dragon Reborn. Think of how Rand lights his pipe at the end. No Saidin, no Saidar, no True Power. He just thinks his pipe into lighting. That sounds like powers of the Creator to me. They say the Creator made Saidin and Saidar. No here's where my theory gets a little crazy...

Think back to the Wandering Aiel Woman that Aviendha meets in the waste. The one who pushes her into changing the ter'angreal and seeing the future instead of past. I at first thought she was an agent of the Creator of some sort... but with Rand being a candidate, I think She was the Creator.

We all know the Wheel of Time spins and weaves all it's stuff. We all know History goes in Circles, and the Wheel balances itself out.

What if there are FOUR different types of dragons? I propose there is also a cycle of History where the Saidar gets tainted. The bore is sealed, it gets broke open. War of the Shadow begins. But the champion of that particular age is a Woman. And she leads 100 female Aes Sedai to the bore, and the Dark One does his stuff. To me that just seems more balanced.
So that whole Wheel sequence happens, thousands of years, etc. Then the Bore gets re-sealed fully intact, people call that  the moment of Creation. And the age has their Creator. (The Woman who touched the Bore with all 3 powers and got the Ultimate Power (I'll call it from now on).
Time goes on, Age of Legends comes again. But this time, it's a male champion known as the Dragon. And we all know the rest from there.

I know it's a little crazy. Might need to elaborate more. I'm just a lazy typer, heh. I know this is a long-time dead thread, but I'm on my re-read of WoT and planning on doing some fanfic for it to practice writing when I'm done. So I gots me some theories.

[Topomouse]

Personally, I always thought that while history in WOT does repeat itself, it does not so precisely. I mean, most large scale events always happens (like: finding the Dark One, sealing him imperfectly, fighting him, sealing him for good), but each time these events unfold differently.

I think that the tainting of Saidin was something "new". I don't remenber which book it was, but there is one time when Rand meets Moridin in a dream and Moridin says they have fought one another countless time in the course of history and he thinks that this time the shadow will win. I always thought he meant that with Saidin tainted the shadow had and advantage this time.

That said, I agree that the "dragon" could have been female at one time, but I don't think that the dragon "ascending to godhood" after imprisoning the Dark One and surviving through the next 7 ages fit with the themes of the books. In order to beat the Dark One rand has to embrace his humanity, lead the others but let each of them do his part. That would be kinda contraddicted by his deification.

Also, personally I prefer the idea of an absolute and trascendet God.

[Gamma Fiend]

I would think there's a Taint every cycle. If the history repeats for the Imperfect Seal, then whatever power source touched the Bore directly gets tainted. So we assume already that that's Saidan everytime. I'm willing to buy that.

I just think that Saidar having a Cycle of Taint would be more balanced, and would possibly explain Nakomi's presence.

Edit: also, I'm on a re-read currently, and am on book 10. So Saidin has been clean. And Rand hasn't met with Moridin in the Dream Realm yet. And Moridin is always convinced that everytime the Shadow will win. that's why he picks the DO's side every time.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Gamma Fiend

[DocHoliday]

Your ideas are interesting Gamma but I disagree.

 Topo is more in line with my views. There was a sequence in book 3  (2?) where Rand is in a dream and Ishmael is telling him they have battled a thousand times (Topo). Ishmael continues to say however that the Dragon has turned to the Dark before.

Yet the Shadow didn't win?

 

It seems to me that the victory scenario was the Dragon destroying the Pattern. The Dark One sought the destruction of the Wheel and Ishmael knew it. There is even a mention of it in MoL. "The others crave power and rule. I know better. We will rule for a time...Then nothing."

[Topomouse]

Yeah, that's more or less what I thought Holiday. There is also the prophecy that made the Borderland kings move. It more or less says that if the Dragon is to far gone they should just kill him "So that Light may not be consumed by he who was to have preserved it".

I took that, and the the fact that the shadow try more to corrupt then kill the dragon, to mean that the Dark One wins only if the Dragon gives up by his own will. If he is killed it's still better, maybe the world goes to deep rust evil rules and everything but at least something still exists and the next Dragon can try again or something like that.

Instead, as you said, if the Dark One has its way and the Dragon gives up and consign it the pattern then everything ends.

[Wrath]

I think we have two Dragons: the Dragon Who Fails and the Dragon Who Succeeds. Obviously LTT is the former and Rand the latter. Success is only possible by understanding how you've failed in the past.

 

But that doesn't mean that the Dragon Who Fails always fails by having Saidin tainted. In other Ages it might be that the Dragon turns to the Shadow, or any other terrible scenario which you can imagine. The Dark One is probably always temporarily dealt with, but the fate of the Dragon can change.

 

I don't think you ever get a female Dragon, though. Souls seem to be the main component in determining whether you use Saidin or Saidar after all. But that doesn't mean that Saidar can't end up tainted - the obvious scenario is that rather than driving the Dragon himself mad the Dark One chooses to drive his significant other mad instead. That might even be a worse punishment.

 

As for the Creator... I always just assumed that the Creator exists outside the Wheel of Time. I definitely believe that the Creator spoke to Rand on those two occasions, and that Rand's Messiah Mode comes from the Creator much as the True Power comes from the Dark One. Just because you have an endless loop doesn't mean that something can't have created that loop and have existed before it.