Khmauv he/him Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 So I am re-reading warbreaker (yes I know this is the Mistborn forum) and I came across a little nugget that I think gives a partial answer to a question posed earlier in 'How he's still around'. I was going to post there but the topic there quickly derailed to a discussion in hemalurgy, I thought it would be better to post a new topic than try to get that one back on track. Moving on. To give my partial answer on why Kelsier is able to stick around to help out after his death. I refer to warbreaker and the court of the gods. The hallandren doctrine teaches in their human life the gods performed some heroic deed that gave them the power to come back. Upon dying they decided to use this power to return and impart knowledge from the other side or other aid to help those still living. I propose that there is at least some truth in this doctrine and it is this power, granted to Kelsier by his heroic deed, that allowed him to stick around and help fight Ruin. I realize this brings up more questions like, "Why does a heroic deed grant this power?". That is why it is a partial answer. Discuss! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer he/him Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 Well, there is no Astral plane (to our knowledge) in the Cosmere. Kelsier's hanging round in the Cognitive Realm. Or, at least that's where he was when he took Preservation's power. As to whether it's a herioc deed that allows him to stick around or not is a big question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted May 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 Well, there is no Astral plane (to our knowledge) in the Cosmere. Kelsier's hanging round in the Cognitive Realm. Or, at least that's where he was when he took Preservation's power. As to whether it's a herioc deed that allows him to stick around or not is a big question. The tongue-in-cheek topic title grabbed your interest enough to get you to read the post and is therefore functioning as intended. Well, there is no Astral plane (to our knowledge) in the Cosmere. Kelsier's hanging round in the Cognitive Realm. Or, at least that's where he was when he took Preservation's power. As to whether it's a herioc deed that allows him to stick around or not is a big question. This is what I was hoping would be discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardbearer he/him Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 Oh, I didn't realize the title was tongue in cheek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaurne Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 Interesting theory. I think it's certainly possible; we've seen something kind of similar before, with those in Arelon being particularly devoted to something becoming Elantrians. Still, I'm not sure why it would happen with Kelsier... Maybe it's not the deed as such, but the recognition of it? Kind of linked to the theory in the link you posted, heroic, world changing deeds, like those of Kelsiers, kind of create a cognitive imprint upon the world, as Kelsier forever changes the way that Scandrialians view both each other and themselves. That imprint tethers him to the world; he becomes tied up in Scadrial's Cognitive aspect. Presumably he could move on if he wished to - the Lord Ruler probably did, after all - but doesn't care for it; he likes meddling too much. Or perhaps, the nature of his 'imprinting' on the world, being focused around one idea, 'survive' (which is linked to ideas like 'remain' 'hold on' etc) means that he actually can't move on, but doesn't care because he'd choose to stay anyway if he had the choice. As an aside, am I the only one who'd love to read a story simply about Sazed's, Marsh's and Kelsier's interactions in the Cognitive Realm. I can just imagine Sazed and Marsh getting slowly more frustrated at Kelsier just refusing to stay dead and interfering with everything, except Sazed wants to leave him alone and Marsh wants his brother to go to the afterlife already. I think that would be pretty funny, personally; a comedy short, like 'I hate dragons'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted May 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 Interesting theory. I think it's certainly possible; we've seen something kind of similar before, with those in Arelon being particularly devoted to something becoming Elantrians. Still, I'm not sure why it would happen with Kelsier... Maybe it's not the deed as such, but the recognition of it? Kind of linked to the theory in the link you posted, heroic, world changing deeds, like those of Kelsiers, kind of create a cognitive imprint upon the world, as Kelsier forever changes the way that Scandrialians view both each other and themselves. That imprint tethers him to the world; he becomes tied up in Scadrial's Cognitive aspect. Presumably he could move on if he wished to - the Lord Ruler probably did, after all - but doesn't care for it; he likes meddling too much. Or perhaps, the nature of his 'imprinting' on the world, being focused around one idea, 'survive' (which is linked to ideas like 'remain' 'hold on' etc) means that he actually can't move on, but doesn't care because he'd choose to stay anyway if he had the choice. As an aside, am I the only one who'd love to read a story simply about Sazed's, Marsh's and Kelsier's interactions in the Cognitive Realm. I can just imagine Sazed and Marsh getting slowly more frustrated at Kelsier just refusing to stay dead and interfering with everything, except Sazed wants to leave him alone and Marsh wants his brother to go to the afterlife already. I think that would be pretty funny, personally; a comedy short, like 'I hate dragons'? I don't think that the heroic deed has to be "world changing" given that Lightsong's heroic deed was not very public IIRC. For that reason I don't think it has to do with the being tied to the cognitive realm. Unless the imprinting has less to do with the number of people you "imprinted" and more to do with the magnitude of the imprint. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 It's worth noting that the Iridescent Tones are not entirely correct in believing that a heroic deed is what causes someone to Return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted May 20, 2013 Report Share Posted May 20, 2013 we have to keep in mind that scadrial and nalthis are different worlds with different shards and different magics. I don'tm think returned and kelsier work under the same principle. I like kaurne's idea on kelsier's action, and people believing him a god, created an impact in the cognitive realm that allowed him to stay around. I wonder if he managed to reunite with mare in some way beside that. returned on nalthis work differently. maybe they are handpicked by the shard, or maybe there's somethign else there. It is also possible that they return because they leave a strong cognitive handprint (that don't need to be as strong as kell's one), but I do believe they are quite different situations. About the idea that returned are bound to the physical realm by cognitive impact, it would explain why children can sometimes return: if their parents feel particularly strong about them. it also explains why people taking eroic deeds are more likely to return. It don't explain however why famous people aren't more likely to return than anyone else. I expect that if the "cognitive impact" theory was true, then a renowned singer/actor/artist with enough fanbase, or a political leader with enough following, would be practically guaranteed to return. damnation, now I'm seeing returned hitler with a svastica-shaped biochroma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted May 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 we have to keep in mind that scadrial and nalthis are different worlds with different shards and different magics. I don'tm think returned and kelsier work under the same principle. I like kaurne's idea on kelsier's action, and people believing him a god, created an impact in the cognitive realm that allowed him to stay around. I wonder if he managed to reunite with mare in some way beside that. returned on nalthis work differently. maybe they are handpicked by the shard, or maybe there's somethign else there. It is also possible that they return because they leave a strong cognitive handprint (that don't need to be as strong as kell's one), but I do believe they are quite different situations. About the idea that returned are bound to the physical realm by cognitive impact, it would explain why children can sometimes return: if their parents feel particularly strong about them. it also explains why people taking eroic deeds are more likely to return. It don't explain however why famous people aren't more likely to return than anyone else. I expect that if the "cognitive impact" theory was true, then a renowned singer/actor/artist with enough fanbase, or a political leader with enough following, would be practically guaranteed to return. damnation, now I'm seeing returned hitler with a svastica-shaped biochroma. The more I think on this the more I am convinced you guys are right. As I was reading, it was mentioned that Lightsongs title is something to the effect of 'Lightsong the brave: god of heroes'. I don't remember much of the other gods but I know there is Blushweaver who, it seems, was returned for her beauty. There was a god of laughter too. So maybe renowned people are returned more often, and Lightsong returning for bravery or heroics was specific to him. Perhaps the Idris faith and the five visions, that discourage ostentation, are meant to keep people from making a strong cognitive imprint thus keeping people from returning. I also agree that there is something different on Nalthis (I believe this to be the super breath) that makes it possible for the returned to not only stick around in the cognitive realm but to also retake their bodies. This is what makes Nalthis different from Scadrial, it is a lot more noticeable when someone does stay. I seem to recall, but ca't find it anywhere, that Brandon suggested that there were many people waiting for Kelsier in, what I assume is, the cognitive realm. It is possible then that there are many people sticking around to watch. given this option by having imprinted themselves so strongly on the minds of the living. On Nalthis they have the the option to return as well the super breath reanimating there lifeless body. As far as tLR is concerned, I think Brandon tried to imply that he was tired. He was done, and I dare say he was relieved to have the burden of fighting ruin removed from his shoulders. He may have been able to stick around but chose to continue on to the other side, or chose to watch but was done trying to interfere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted May 21, 2013 Report Share Posted May 21, 2013 The more I think on this the more I am convinced you guys are right. As I was reading, it was mentioned that Lightsongs title is something to the effect of 'Lightsong the brave: god of heroes'. I don't remember much of the other gods but I know there is Blushweaver who, it seems, was returned for her beauty. There was a god of laughter too. So maybe renowned people are returned more often, and Lightsong returning for bravery or heroics was specific to him. Blushweaver didn't Return because of her beauty, that wasn't even her original title. She was originally Blushweaver the Honest. She was a merchant who reported a group of dye merchants that were doing nefarious deeds. They then killed her but not before the authorities were altered to their actions. So it isn't just Lightsong that Returned for "heroics." That said, I don't really agree with the theory. I think Kelsier sticking around has more to do with the Church of the Survivor than anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Don't have time to find it, right now, but there's a HoA annotation (at the end of the Spook arc) where Brandon says something to the extent of Spook being able to hear Kelsier because he worshiped him as a deity. I've never actually seen this discussed around here, but it seems very important to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted May 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Blushweaver didn't Return because of her beauty, that wasn't even her original title. She was originally Blushweaver the Honest. She was a merchant who reported a group of dye merchants that were doing nefarious deeds. They then killed her but not before the authorities were altered to their actions. So it isn't just Lightsong that Returned for "heroics." I just read that after I posted my last comment. Still, doesn't that reinforce the concept of heroic deeds allowing them to stick around? That said, I don't really agree with the theory. I think Kelsier sticking around has more to do with the Church of the Survivor than anything else. Can you explain that a little further? What is it about the church of the survivor that would hold Kelsier in the Cognitive Realm? Don't have time to find it, right now, but there's a HoA annotation (at the end of the Spook arc) where Brandon says something to the extent of Spook being able to hear Kelsier because he worshiped him as a deity. I've never actually seen this discussed around here, but it seems very important to me. That doesn't ring a bell but I would like to see it. If that is true it is important indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) k, here it is: Spook was the only one in the crew he could speak to. That's because Spook truly has faith in Kelsier as a deity—which, for these few weeks between Preservation's death and the coming of the Hero of Ages, Kelsier is. http://www.brandonsanderson.com/annotation/339/Mistborn-3-Chapter-Sixty-Four'>Chapter 64 spoiler. Edited May 22, 2013 by Pechvarry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted May 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) k, here it is: Chapter 64 spoiler. thanks Pechvarry! This seems to be explaining why Kelsier can speak to Spook NOT why Kelsier gets to stick around. Edit: I looked at the rest of the quote... There is an afterlife in this cosmology I’ve built, and Kelsier’s in it. He never has been able to leave well enough alone. He saw, here, that a piece of the puzzle needed to be put together, so he stepped in and tried to get through to Spook about it. So if I read this correctly there is nothing unusual about dead people sticking around. They are just in an afterlife and it is Kelsier's compulsion to meddle, coupled with spooks faith in Kelsier, that allowed him to steer events from the otherside. Edited May 22, 2013 by Khmauv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 Can you explain that a little further? What is it about the church of the survivor that would hold Kelsier in the Cognitive Realm? I would say this thread does a better job of explaining it than I could. Basically all that belief in him as a god is a tether that allows him to stick around in limbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khmauv he/him Posted May 22, 2013 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 I would say this thread does a better job of explaining it than I could. Basically all that belief in him as a god is a tether that allows him to stick around in limbo. That's the thread I sited in the original post. I hate to be contrary but from the WoB quote above it seems that everyone sticks around. It was others faith in him, as a deity, that allows him to communicate with the living. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeiryWriter he/him Posted May 22, 2013 Report Share Posted May 22, 2013 (edited) That's the thread I sited in the original post. I hate to be contrary but from the WoB quote above it seems that everyone sticks around. It was others faith in him, as a deity, that allows him to communicate with the living. Sorry about that, I didn't notice you had already linked to that. The way I understand it, when people die they pass through the cognitive realm on the way to the "afterlife" which is outside the Three Realms (I know there is a quote for this somewhere). Kelsier just hasn't moved on like Vin and Elend have. I think the belief in him makes a cognitive "handhold" that aid in him staying, rather than being swept into the afterlife proper. (I'm doing a poor job explaining this) Also him talking with Spook had a lot to do with the fact that he was holding Preservation at the time I think. It is similar to Elend and Vin after she ascends. Edit: I found this, which, in my opinion points to the final resting place not being the Cognitive Realm. Edited May 22, 2013 by WeiryWriter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechvarry Posted May 23, 2013 Report Share Posted May 23, 2013 (edited) The cosmere seems to have a collective conciousness aspect to the cognitive realm. Aka, a tree is a tree because the collective human conciousness views it as such. If a million skaa believe you're living on, that seems like an incredibly strong foothold for your cognitive aspect. Edited May 23, 2013 by Pechvarry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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