Similarities in magic between Elantris and Mistborn (possible spoilers?)

[HemalurgyIsMessy]

So I just finished Elantris (haven't read Emperor's Way yet) for the first time after reading the Mistborn trilogy and, thanks to this site, I am cosmere aware. One thing that I noticed while reading this book that I would not have noticed had I not known about the cosmere is that in the early parts of Raoden's research of the AonDor, he finds many books that refer to "frequencies" and "pulse lengths".

 

I laughed out loud when I read this because that is EXACTLY the way Marsh teaches Vin to use bronze to detect allomantic pulses, and how different metals burn at different pulse lengths and frequencies. I wonder if the Dor exists beyond just Elantris's world and that is a what Ruin and Preservation (or Harmony depending when Allomancy was created) use to fuel Allomancy, Feruchemy, and Hemalurgy?

 

I am sure this has come up multiple times before, but I just get a kick out of how Brandon Sanderson started building the Cosmere (of which I know very little, something about shards and three different planes of existence, and some dude named Hoid who pops up in weird places?) very early on in his career. What do you guys think, should I read Emperor's Way next and try to get more Realmatic knowledge (I feel like I am waaay behind/out of the loop), or read Warbreaker next? (I have only read Mistborn trilogy and Elantris to date. I own Warbreaker and will read that or Emperor's Way before Way of Kings).

Edited May 18, 2013 by HemalurgyIsMessy

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Good insight!  The microstructure of metals is confirmed to be essentially a miniature Aon.

 

 

Anyway, I personally like Warbreaker.  Emperor's Soul has a few mentions of things, but it doesn't really clarify all that much outside of Forging.  The format you're reading it in is probably the tiebreaker there.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Voidus]

Nicely spotted, I think we had a thread about that a while back where we tried to tie it in with some other books, you're sort of right in that it's similar to what Ruin and Preservation use, there was a fair bit of discussion about it but Brandon cleared things up a bit in a QandA a while back IIRC.
I'd probably go with Warbreaker first, there is a bit of the three realms stuff in Emperor's soul but personally I think it's better after reading the other cosmere books and reading a few interviews for extra goodies.

[HemalurgyIsMessy]

I don't want to read too many Q & A sessions yet just because I don't want to accidentally get spoiled for future books. I'm really weird about finding out about something before I "should" while reading the books. I read the prologue to Warbreaker just now and I think I'm going to read that next. I will probably read Emperor's Way then WoK.......then probably re-read every book, haha. 

[Voidus]

Most of the Q&A's are pretty good with spoilers, mostly mistborn and TWoK spoilers really, but yes probably for the best. Hope you enjoy!

[skaa he/him]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this, but I saw another connection between the Sel and Scadrial stories as I was re-reading the Hero of Ages a few minutes ago (possible Mistborn spoiler):

 

Spook, it read. I tried to bring them back, but apparently fixing the bodies doesn't return the souls. I will get better at this with time, I expect.

 

 

Imagine Shai being hired by Harmony to make Soul Forgeries for you-know-who.   (Yes, I know that won't be a good idea. It was just a funny thought.)

 

Edited May 19, 2013 by skaa

[Aethling he/him]

It would probably be nearly impossible to forge the soul of a dead body.  It barely worked on the Emperor, and he wasn't dead.

[happyman he/him]

It would probably be nearly impossible to forge the soul of a dead body.  It barely worked on the Emperor, and he wasn't dead.

 

Yes, but making the body alive again is Harmony's job.  I'm thinking he would be pretty good at it.

[skaa he/him]

Yes, but making the body alive again is Harmony's job.  I'm thinking he would be pretty good at it.

 

Indeed. I was under the impression that when the souls didn't return after Harmony fixed the bodies, he just gave up and let the bodies die again.

Edited May 21, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Indeed. I was under the impression that when the souls didn't return after Harmony fixed the bodies, he just gave up and let the bodies die again.

He shoulda asked Endowment for tips.

[Shardlet he/him]

Good insight!  The microstructure of metals is confirmed to be essentially a miniature Aon.

 

I am kinda disappointed in this confirmation.  I am a metallurgist by education and I probably have too much info on the subject for the purpose at hand.  But the microstructure of a metal is dependent not only on the composition of the metal, but also (if not more so) on its method of manufacture. 

 

For example if you have two peices of brass having the same composition which have not been subjected to any post-casting treatment (i.e., after full solidification and cooling) but one was cooled rapidly by quenching and the other was air-cooled you would see substantially different microstructures between the two pieces even though the composition was the same (in this case the quenched piece microstructure would show a much smaller average grain size than the air-cooled piece).  If you then took one of those pieces and bent it then the microstructure would be vastly different (at the bend) from what it was originally (the grains would be twinned [visible parallel lines crossing the grains] all over the place).   

 

I hope BS has considered this when he made the confirmation you are referencing.  Missing details like that is a major pet pieve of mine.  Not that it would diminish my love for BS's work, it would just make me a little bit sad.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I am kinda disappointed in this confirmation.  I am a metallurgist by education and I probably have too much info on the subject for the purpose at hand.  But the microstructure of a metal is dependent not only on the composition of the metal, but also (if not more so) on its method of manufacture. 

 

For example if you have two peices of brass having the same composition which have not been subjected to any post-casting treatment (i.e., after full solidification and cooling) but one was cooled rapidly by quenching and the other was air-cooled you would see substantially different microstructures between the two pieces even though the composition was the same (in this case the quenched piece microstructure would show a much smaller average grain size than the air-cooled piece).  If you then took one of those pieces and bent it then the microstructure would be vastly different (at the bend) from what it was originally (the grains would be twinned [visible parallel lines crossing the grains] all over the place).   

 

I hope BS has considered this when he made the confirmation you are referencing.  Missing details like that is a major pet pieve of mine.  Not that it would diminish my love for BS's work, it would just make me a little bit sad.

 

He's probably at least put some thought into it.  A couple other gem nerds have nitpicked about stormlight archive's gemstones

http://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/1ced7z/iamstilla_novelist_named_brandon_sanderson_ama/#c9fpftb

I have a technical question here re: gemstones in The Stormlight Archive. How are the lines drawn between different types of gem? Emerald and Heliodor are both varieties of the mineral beryl. Emerald can get its color from trace amounts of chromium, vanadium and/or iron. Heliodor gets its color from iron combined with microscopic crystal defects. So, is the line between these two defined by color? If so, would a heliodor lose its usefulness if it were heated (which would turn it colorless or pale blue). Is it defined by trace elements--in which case, how do you deal with emeralds, or with aquamarine (the blue variety of beryl, which can also contain chromium or vanadium in small quantities and is mostly colored by iron). Sorry for getting so technical, but this gem nerd needs to know!

 

I actually spent a long time working on this while building the world. You'd probably be amused by how long I spent on it. Chemically, many of them are actually very similar, as you pointed out. I tried doing the book originally with them all being different, not using any that were basically the same crystal with different colors, but it didn't work out. There weren't enough, and so I had to stretch to make it all work.

So, I went back to the original, and decided that color was enough to differentiate them. Just as steel and iron are very similar in the mistborn world, Emerald and Heliodor can be very similar--but produce different effects. The idea here is that the physical items (like the metals or the crystals) provide a key by which magical interaction occurs.

So, in a long winded answer, a gemstone with an impure color would be considered like a bad alloy in the Mistborn magic--it either wouldn't work at all, or would work very poorly. The chemical and color signature needs to be of a specific variety to provide the proper key to accessing the power of transformation.

[Senor Feesh]

Consider also that all mantic alloys do need to be prepared correctly. I don't know if the process is as important as the ratio (allomantically speaking) but it's worth considering.

[Shardlet he/him]

Consider also that all mantic alloys do need to be prepared correctly. I don't know if the process is as important as the ratio (allomantically speaking) but it's worth considering.

 

I would like to lean that way, but the very act of making the shavings of the metal is going to significantly effect the microstructure.

 

I doubt that this is a foundational and critical aspect of how allomancy uses metal to access shardpower.  It is just a little bit  for me.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Well, there's leeway as well. Vin mentions that pewter that's slightly off will just give you less bang for your buck.

[Isomere]

I can show a good way to make the percentage of metals important, but the way they are positioned in the alloy irrelevant: Just think of each metal atom as a glowing ball of colored light. Mix all the light together and the mixture's color determines allomantic properties. 
 
My Theory: The waves in an atom form a Surgepattern, just like an Aon on Sel forms a Surgepattern. These allow the Power of Creation to leak through and cause the pattern to "glow" (though it usually isn't visible to the human eye). The shape of the Surgepattern determines which "color" of the Power we access. Color is a good analogy because it is just a way to describe "pulse length and frequency".
 

"Some theorists describe the process [of accessing the Dor] using unfamiliar words like 'frequency' and 'pulse length'."  Paperback version of Elantris pg 372, Chapter 28

 
So assigning random colors to some metals:
Tin = red
Copper = green
Bronze = yellow 
 
If you mix 33% copper with 66% tin you would get orange light, and it wouldn't work allomantically
If you mix 50% copper with 50% tin you get yellow light and it would work perfectly for Seeking. If the hue is off a bit it works less well.
 
(Link to site with a Light Mixing toolkit since pigment mixing is so different)

[Shardlet he/him]

I am kinda disappointed in this confirmation.  I am a metallurgist by education and I probably have too much info on the subject for the purpose at hand.  But the microstructure of a metal is dependent not only on the composition of the metal, but also (if not more so) on its method of manufacture. 

 

For example if you have two peices of brass having the same composition which have not been subjected to any post-casting treatment (i.e., after full solidification and cooling) but one was cooled rapidly by quenching and the other was air-cooled you would see substantially different microstructures between the two pieces even though the composition was the same (in this case the quenched piece microstructure would show a much smaller average grain size than the air-cooled piece).  If you then took one of those pieces and bent it then the microstructure would be vastly different (at the bend) from what it was originally (the grains would be twinned [visible parallel lines crossing the grains] all over the place).   

 

I hope BS has considered this when he made the confirmation you are referencing.  Missing details like that is a major pet pieve of mine.  Not that it would diminish my love for BS's work, it would just make me a little bit sad.

 

 

Happiness and Joy! 

 

 

Quote

It's actually the molecular structure of the metal... what's going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of "this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you."

 

The WoB refers not to the microstructure of the metal, but rather to the molecular structure!  Any and all angst has fled.  There is proper consistency in my view of the Cosmere again!

 

EDIT: Note, there is a vast difference between the fixed molecular structure of a metal (basically a bunch of atoms stuck together) and the microstructure of a metal (generally several orders of magnitude larger scale than the molecular structure).

Edited May 23, 2013 by Shardlet