The South Pole

[Ugouka he/him]

The south pole of Scadrial has been mentioned here and there, and WoB confirmed it has life, and a form of allomancy/feruchemy/hemalurgy or something akin to them.--

 

Chaos2651

About the southern continent, would it be possible for other Scadrians to discover this method of using the Metallic Arts, or is it unique to the southern Scadrians?

 

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology-based rather than genetics based.

 

 

 

So, we have technology based Allomancy, formed by TLR's backup plan people. Any thoughts as to how they could make this work? Science-based magic isn't exactly new to Sanderson (Fabrials), but it hasn't really been explained yet. I'm thinking it will have to do with carving symbols out of the proper metals to use as a channeling focus (Each metal does has symbols associated with it). The major thing I'm curious about is how they actually use the investiture. This MAY be explained by another WoB..

 

2. How is Harmony balanced when a part of Preservation's power is expended on human sentience? Isn't that what caused all the trouble to begin with?

Indeed. Hm... What could Sazed be doing with that extra power... -Brandon

 

 

Well. Brandon is *hint, hinting* at us about something here. I mean, I originally thought that Ruin's counter to humanity was Koloss, inquisitors, etc. But why wouldn't Brandon just come out and say that? Then it occured to me that RUIN didn't create those creatures, TLR did. While their power is of Ruin, it was used by a creature of Preservation, not Ruin himself. So that brings about the question of balance again... Granted, if we're talking Harmony here, magic wouldn't have come to South Scadrial until after HoA, which I kind of doubt, but hey, just kind of tossing up ideas here. Perhaps this is the case, and this will be a large part of the modern Mistborn trilogy. I can see Harmony use this extra power as a source of non-genetic magic to encourage cosmere-awareness for Scadrial.

 

 

 

Maybe the "mistborn serial killer" we're hearing about is a Southern Scadrian.

 

EDIT: Formatting

Edited July 15, 2015 by Ugouka

[natc]

A bit of a tangent, but why would a Koloss or Inquisitor contain the power of Ruin in the first place anyway? The spikes just contain pieces of a spiritweb and nothing else. Human attributes might be a mix of the shards in the case of Koloss, but Inquisitor allomantic spikes would most likely be pure Preservation. The allomancy itself also draws power from Preservation except when it is drawing power from atium.

[Oudeis he/him]

A bit of a tangent, but why would a Koloss or Inquisitor contain the power of Ruin in the first place anyway?

 

Well, if a bead of lerasium gives your spiritweb a connection to Preservation that makes you a mistborn, and Vin's earring causes the mists to repel from her body, it seems logical that allomancy is somehow innately of Preservation and hemalurgy is innately of Ruin. But that's just my interpretation. That somehow, the "net" used to trap the spiritweb, and whatever mechanism joins that scrap into your own, are forged of Ruinous power.

 

On a tangent, a weird thought occurred to me just last night. We know that the magnetic "north pole" and the geographic one are far, far distant. So when he talks of people surviving at the South Pole, which does he mean? The bottom of the axis around which the world spins, or a circle directly opposite the Final Empire? The reason the Empire was so livable was that the ash had a magnetic component which caused it to concentrate around that geographic area. If the Southern Scadrians lived at the geographic South Pole, they somehow survived without the ash.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Didn't TLR do something while he still had the well's power so that the Southern Scadrians were made into a contingency in case the FE went storms up? (Don't think it was ever explained)   

[Oudeis he/him]

Didn't TLR do something while he still had the well's power so that the Southern Scadrians were made into a contingency in case the FE went storms up? (Don't think it was ever explained)   

 

Yes: This is the thing to which I refer. It's been said they were at... I think the phrase was "other end of the planet," although now I wanna look up the original quote. If it meant the pole, did it mean the geographic or magnetic pole? Luthadel was the "north pole" and that was magnetic, so presumably that's what was meant here. Basically I wanna know a lot more about the Southern Scadrians.

[Shardbearer he/him]

I believe that in the past, Ruin's surplus power was redirected to the Pits of Hathsin. That's why there was so much more atium then lerasium. 

 

Also, the atium geodes took about 300 years to regrow. AoL is set about 300 years after the era 1 trilogy...

 

I believe the prevailing theory is that Harmony is still redirecting Ruin's extra power into atium, which means that a new source of atium should just now be reforming...

 

And of course, it is said that the Pits of Eltania contain an unknown metal...

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Yes: This is the thing to which I refer. It's been said they were at... I think the phrase was "other end of the planet," although now I wanna look up the original quote. If it meant the pole, did it mean the geographic or magnetic pole? Luthadel was the "north pole" and that was magnetic, so presumably that's what was meant here. Basically I wanna know a lot more about the Southern Scadrians.

 

Hmm, I always assumed the Well was atop the magnetic North Pole and Ruin's shardpool/Investiture spawn point would have been the geographical one, going from near proximity to each other in the vague description I remember from Alendi's journal and then comparing to FE, I would say the Well/Luthadel is the magnetic where the Pits of Hathsin would be the geographic, considering they weren't that far out from Luthadel itself

[WeiryWriter he/him]

I believe that in the past, Ruin's surplus power was redirected to the Pits of Hathsin. That's why there was so much more atium then lerasium. 

 

Also, the atium geodes took about 300 years to regrow. AoL is set about 300 years after the era 1 trilogy...

 

I believe the prevailing theory is that Harmony is still redirecting Ruin's extra power into atium, which means that a new source of atium should just now be reforming...

 

And of course, it is said that the Pits of Eltania contain an unknown metal...

 

I see this argument pop all the time, and personally I just don't buy it.  First of all we don't know how Kelsier came up with that time frame.  Secondly there is zero reason for Harmony to continue their existence, they were put in to place by Preservation to forcefully siphon of some of Ruin's power in order to maintain the balance.  Harmony is in control of both Shards, he doesn't need that mechanism.

 

Hmm, I always assumed the Well was atop the magnetic North Pole and Ruin's shardpool/Investiture spawn point would have been the geographical one, going from near proximity to each other in the vague description I remember from Alendi's journal and then comparing to FE, I would say the Well/Luthadel is the magnetic where the Pits of Hathsin would be the geographic, considering they weren't that far out from Luthadel itself

 

Keep in mind Rashek basically re-did most of Scadrial's geography during his Ascension.  While the Well was originally relatively close to the Geographic North Pole, Rashek dragged it to a more southerly position consequently taking the Magnetic Pole with it.  The Geographic Pole actually lies outside of the boundaries of the Final Empire. I believe he mentions in the Annotations how due to the lack of the ferromagnetic ash the Geographic Pole is actually hotter than the lands in the Final Empire.  But it is fairly obvious from the text that Luthadel is nowhere near the Geographic Pole as it experiences a conventional day/night cycle.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Aye, I couldn't remember what Rashek actually did to the geography other than to hide and move the well specifically so i assumed he would have had to move both. I have yet to actually read the annotations of any of the books (it is on my list) so i was just going on from a picture i saw of the geographic/magnetic poles but that may only have applied pre and post FE. Interesting. I wonder in regards to Ruin/Preservation on their meta-plane if were able to see the southern continent or if Rashek and his meddling created a kind of block round there, which would explain why there's still people on it after the climax of HoA. 

Edited July 16, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Oudeis he/him]

My personal theory is that Rashek used mechanical allomancy and cadmium to trap them in a time bubble underground so that only 16 years seem to have passed for them; this would keep them largely safe and prevent them from advancing in the thousand years Rashek knew it would be before he could check in on them again. This would also explain from whence they got the inspiration for mechanical allomancy, which a thousand years of the Final Empire and three hundred years since have not revealed.

 

I swear I posted this theory once elsewhere but I can't find it for the life of me.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

I'd argue against Cadmium purely because of Preservations tinkering, although we don't actually know exactly just everything that he did. Then again, it could be his Sliver state allowed him a greater access to the nuances of Allomancy so I wouldn't be surprised if mechanical Allomancy was involved somehow, mainly due to the recent WoB that was posted in the AMA thread

[Oudeis he/him]

Yes, while I was out tonight I remembered the cadmium thing, and realized I should have added it. It's my understanding that the whole "removed from the wheel" thing was just, who would make mistings. i.e. it was not originally built into the system that people could be Seers, so he took out Pulsers and replaced them. The effect cadmium could have was still a viable power, but there was never going to be a cadmium misting. I realize we're a bit far out on a speculative branch now, and believe me, this is not the most fragile house of cards in my whole theory. Not gonna lie, I will be at least a little surprised if my model turns out to be even mostly correct.

 

That said, I haven't seen another model which adequately handles the problems I've addressed.

[VindicationKnight he/him]

I see this argument pop all the time, and personally I just don't buy it.  First of all we don't know how Kelsier came up with that time frame.  Secondly there is zero reason for Harmony to continue their existence, they were put in to place by Preservation to forcefully siphon of some of Ruin's power in order to maintain the balance.  Harmony is in control of both Shards, he doesn't need that mechanism.

 

Well remember, part of the reason that Preservation needed to siphon of the excess power was because of Ruin outweighing him in raw power after he Invested in granting mankind his power. That power is still in the people of Scadrial so in order to keep a balance of the two Shards he holds he might be dumping a portion of Ruin's power into a safe vent, like the Pits.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Well remember, part of the reason that Preservation needed to siphon of the excess power was because of Ruin outweighing him in raw power after he Invested in granting mankind his power. That power is still in the people of Scadrial so in order to keep a balance of the two Shards he holds he might be dumping a portion of Ruin's power into a safe vent, like the Pits.

 

But thing is that Preservation was removing that power by force, IIRC Brandon has described it as being similar (but distinctly different from Splintering) though I'm not finding that WoB at the moment.  Frankly I think it is illogical for Sazed to be essentially taking a knife to himself to carve out the extra Ruin.  Now that isn't to say he isn't storing that extra power in atium form, I just do not believe that the Pits are a necessary part of that, he should just be able to spontaneously manifest it as needed.

[natc]

Even if he could it has to go somewhere, surely.

I don't think it would all fit in Marsh's pocket or anything.

[Shardbearer he/him]

Well, I'm guessing that in order for Sazed to keep the two Shards "in harmony" he has to keep the powers balanced. If so, he would definitely need to do something with that extra Ruin power. Why not the Pits?

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Well, I'm guessing that in order for Sazed to keep the two Shards "in harmony" he has to keep the powers balanced. If so, he would definitely need to do something with that extra Ruin power. Why not the Pits?

 

I'm not denying that Sazed must be doing something with that extra power, and that storing it in the form of atium would be a reasonable choice.  I just do not believe that the Pits are necessary part of that.  My point is that the Pits were a mechanism put in place by Preservation to siphon power away from Ruin who was not a willing donor.  Sazed however is in direct control of that power, the Pits should not be necessary for him to create atium, he should just be able to manifest it spontaneously whenever and wherever he deems fit.

[DreamEternal]

Why can't Sazed just give humans equal amounts of Ruin and Preservation? Isn't just having the extra investiture enough to make them sentient, no matter where it comes from? It is just that Ati was unwilling to expend that extra power, wasn't it?

[Kaymyth she/her]

Why can't Sazed just give humans equal amounts of Ruin and Preservation? Isn't just having the extra investiture enough to make them sentient, no matter where it comes from? It is just that Ati was unwilling to expend that extra power, wasn't it?

 

Well, to be blunt, if he put more Ruin into humanity they would become more destructive by nature.  That would be somewhat unpleasant.

 

I'm not denying that Sazed must be doing something with that extra power, and that storing it in the form of atium would be a reasonable choice.  I just do not believe that the Pits are necessary part of that.  My point is that the Pits were a mechanism put in place by Preservation to siphon power away from Ruin who was not a willing donor.  Sazed however is in direct control of that power, the Pits should not be necessary for him to create atium, he should just be able to manifest it spontaneously whenever and wherever he deems fit.

 

Probably not necessary, but if he needs to siphon it off somewhere and doesn't want to release it to the general population, tucking it away into the Pits is as good a place as any.  Especially if he's moved them somewhere less accessible.

[Seonid he/him]

I had actually been under the impression that the extra bit of Ruin had gone into making the koloss a true-breeding race.

[DreamEternal]

Well, to be blunt, if he put more Ruin into humanity they would become more destructive by nature. That would be somewhat unpleasant

I doubt the intent of the shard has so much influence on the beings it creates. Is Nightblood concerned about endowning things? Is Torol Sadeas more honorable or creative than Straff Venture? Are the people of Sel more concerned about conquest and domination than the avarage Alethi highlord? Wouldn't the extra ruin and preservation even out in the end?

Edited July 19, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[natc]

I doubt the intent of the shard has so much influence on the beings it creates. Is Nightblood concerned about endowning things? Is Torol Sadeas more honorable or creative than Straff Venture? Are the people of Sel more concerned about conquest and domination than the avarage Alethi highlord? Wouldn't the extra ruin and preservation even out in the end?

We don't really even know if any of those other humans were shard-created or if they descended directly from humans of the Adonalsium era.

Edited July 20, 2015 by natc

[DreamEternal]

We don't really even know if any of those other humans were shard-created or if they descended directly from humans of the Adonalsium era.

Adonalsium is dead. Gone. Shattered and scattered across the universe. Their inate investiture must come from somewhere else now. Unless there is a big "unused primal investiture" pool out there that for some reason only beings directly descending from those created by Adonalsium can acess I am not sure if that makes so much difference.

[Oudeis he/him]

Adonalsium is dead. Gone. Shattered and scattered across the universe.

 

Stormlight, Elantris

 

Something similar could be said of Devotion and Dominion, yet the people of Sel seem to have Innate Investiture.

 

And aren't we told somewhere that there are spren of Adonalsium, not of Honor, Cultivation or Odium? It's referenced in the Reply wherein the writer comments on how the worlds still feel the touch of Adonalsium.

 

If an engineer builds a toaster, then dies, the toaster doesn't stop working. If Adonalsium begets a race which runs on his Investiture, his shattering shouldn't stop those people from having his Innate Investiture. Every Shard runs on the power of Creation, anyway. Isn't that force just as pervasive as it ever was, and wouldn't a system set up by Adonalsium continue running in his absence?

[DreamEternal]

Stormlight, Elantris

Something similar could be said of Devotion and Dominion, yet the people of Sel seem to have Innate Investiture.

And aren't we told somewhere that there are spren of Adonalsium, not of Honor, Cultivation or Odium? It's referenced in the Reply wherein the writer comments on how the worlds still feel the touch of Adonalsium.

If an engineer builds a toaster, then dies, the toaster doesn't stop working. If Adonalsium begets a race which runs on his Investiture, his shattering shouldn't stop those people from having his Innate Investiture. Every Shard runs on the power of Creation, anyway. Isn't that force just as pervasive as it ever was, and wouldn't a system set up by Adonalsium continue running in his absence?

the problem was that Adonalsium was both the creator and the power source. Spren of Adonalsium are self contained and don't reproduce, so they aren't affected, but if humans are born every day, where does their investiture come from, and why couldn't preservation tap into it? Is there a big cicle in wich investiture is recicled and only those with the right "key" can have it?

Edited July 22, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern