Cosmere cloning?

[akasketch]

Well it really depends on what you think of as "soul". Are you talking in a religious sense, like the bit of you that passes out of life after you die? Or are you simply talking about someone's spiritweb?

 

Everything has spiritwebs. My keys have a spiritweb. The button on my fly has a spiritweb. It's just the spiritual aspect, like how everything has a physical aspect, a spiritual aspect, and a cognitive aspect. The spiritweb of my keys are prolly not as complicated as the spiritweb of a person, more like oh gee let's just say a stick.

 

Spiritweb and soul get used interchangably sometimes but that's not always specifically what people mean. Since we're talking about metalborn traits, I'm going to assume when you say soul, you mean spiritweb, since that's where metalborn traits are centered.

 

So. Where would the clone get its spiritweb from? Who knows. Different people have different ideas. Maybe the cell nucleus you take, which should have its own tiny, not very complicated spiritweb, develops into a larger one the way one cell becomes a whole person. Maybe not. The general sense of the spiritual realm is that it's all about connections, so maybe as the life is created, a connection appears to Miles, and one appears to the place where he's being cloned, and one appears to the person doing the cloning, maybe others from Miles's actual parents, maybe there's someone who cut Miles and stole the finger they're using to clone, all the people and things that might impact the clone all converge, and start making the new spiritweb. Who knows? Of all three realms, the spiritual one is least well known.

 

Now I want to know. If you cloned someone genetically Scadrian in Elantris, could they ever be an Elantrian? Could they ever be metalborn? To the ultimate list of questions!

 

In the quote, I feel like "soul" means the viable portion of the spiritweb, the portion with the "Identity" of Miles. The other half would still have a spiritweb; it would just not be that of living Miles. It wouldn't have his identity, and it would no longer be a carrier for his metalborn traits. You couldn't spike anything out of it. Who knows if the individual cells could be cloned to make a metalborn.

I think that the Scadrian mentioned qbove would have a good chance of being/becoming a metalborn Elantrian. Upvoted for astounding logic and possibly figuring out the spiritual realm.

[ParadoxicalZen]

I personally disagree with Scadrian/Elantrian, purely because I feel that the innate Preservation/Ruin/Harmony Investiture might act as a block to prevent the Shaod from taking place initially unless they can somehow hack the system/live long enough (given we don't know exactly how many generations/circumstances are required for the effect to take place) It is an interesting question though, especially if they had feruchemy as well

[Oudeis]

Hrm. True, simply being born there might not be enough. But, it might be. Especially in a land where the Investiture is an equal mix of Devotion and Dominion, I could see possession being nine-tenths of arcana.

 

Hrm. What if you took a Selish ovum and used it to grow the Scadrian nucleus? Even without Selish DNA, would that be enough?

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Really this is off the direction of this thread as it is now but on topic for the old line at the start.

A feruchemist uses Feruchemical gold  to survive spiking and makes a Spike to tap their Identity metal minds and maybe there gold and spiritual metalminds as well.
They stab someone with these and give them the minds claiming that if they tap them all They will become a feruchemist. Sense we know that the feruchemical charges are keyed to the person who made them are they keyed with that person's "Personality" in such a way that you could "Clone" yourself like a parasite on to someone else's spirit web and would this act adjust there sDNA to match yours?

[VindicationKnight]

It's been a while but I got a definative answer from Brandon.

 

 

2) If a person in the Cosmere built a fully sentient and sapient robot would that robot have a soul? How would it interact with Shardblades?

3) On a vaguely similar note if you cloned someone using real life technology (so not magic) would they have a normal Cognitive and Spiritual make up or be something like a Drab?

 

1. Yes. It would interact with Shardblades the same way that Spren do.

2. Cloning would most likely work like creating a twin--the body would pull Investiture for a soul, and you probably wouldn't have a drab. Though it would be possible to do it in such a way that you did create one, if you're simply working from our current cloning technology, you'd get a fully invested human being.

 

From the reddit AMA

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/ct4o7r9?context=3

[Kurkistan]

It's been a while but I got a definative answer from Brandon.

 

It amuses me deeply that you interpret 9 days since the thread being posted as "awhile" to settle a cosmere question.

[VindicationKnight]

It amuses me deeply that you interpret 9 days since the thread being posted as "awhile" to settle a cosmere question.

 I'm used to more harsh forums when necroing a thread.

 

I do find his comments on potential A.I's interesting though...Robo Cosmere confirmed for Mistborn 3? 

[ParadoxicalZen]

 I'm used to more harsh forums when necroing a thread.

 

I do find his comments on potential A.I's interesting though...Robo Cosmere confirmed for Mistborn 3? 

 

Would be interesting to see if it could have innate Scadrian Investiture (or perhaps even become a Misting/Ferring/Fullborn)

[VindicationKnight]

Would be interesting to see if it could have innate Scadrian Investiture (or perhaps even become a Misting/Ferring/Fullborn)

I kept thinking of Age of Ultron and whether he'd have the necessary Investiture to stop Vin pushing on his internal components. It also raises all sorts of interesting components about body-soul relationships, if an A.I has a soul what happens when it moves between two servers or copies itself? What if it's stored and not active, is that like death or sleep? If you upload a human mind onto a machine does that move the soul or make a new one a'la Shai?

 

It's so rare to have fantasy do the whole transhumanism thing so now there are some hints of how the Cosmere might do that side of things I'm all excited. 

[Kurkistan]

 I'm used to more harsh forums when necroing a thread.

 

As a rule I've found that it's perfectly fine (if not even encouraged) to necro old theory/discussion threads when a new WoB comes to light that answers the question at hand. Necroing for the sake of necroing not so much, but for the sake of new information is all to the good.

[Oudeis]

It's been a while but I got a definative answer from Brandon.

 

 

From the reddit AMA

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/ct4o7r9?context=3

 

Hrm. I thought we didn't have an answer yet on what specifically a "soul" was. I'm currently under the impression that it's just a way of saying "spiritual aspect", as in, Stick has a cognitive aspect and a spiritual aspect, so Stick has a "soul". So the robot would have a soul simply by virtue of being an object.

 

Do we have a WoB somewhere that in the cosmere, "soul" is defined as... actually, how do you define a soul in this context, exactly?

 

And he says a Shardblade would interact with it as with a spren... how do Shardblades interact with spren? Have we seen someone stick a Shardblade into a flamespren? Per Kaladin's mom, rocks have spren, and we know Shardblades cut through rocks just fine. Is that just his way of saying, a Shardblade would cut through the robot, and both halves would have a spren, the way you cut through a rock, and both halves would have spren?

[StormyAngel]

Does anyone know how spren interact with shardblade's definitively? Does this mean a robot would or wouldn't be cut by a shardblade? Because if it's the latter...that could have some pretty big implications for future Roshar.

 

I'm picturing a robot army takeover by the Scadriali Imperial Galactic Empire. Take that Knights Radiant.

 

Edit: Oh hey there Oudeis! Fancy seeing you here...

Edited July 16, 2015 by StormyAngel

[natc]

Robots all get lashed to space or take Division to the face. Or get soulcast, etc.

Would it be possible to spike the android with allomancy or feruchemy? Can he burn his own parts or store in them?

Edited July 16, 2015 by natc

[ParadoxicalZen]

I kept thinking of Age of Ultron and whether he'd have the necessary Investiture to stop Vin pushing on his internal components. It also raises all sorts of interesting components about body-soul relationships, if an A.I has a soul what happens when it moves between two servers or copies itself? What if it's stored and not active, is that like death or sleep? If you upload a human mind onto a machine does that move the soul or make a new one a'la Shai?

 

It's so rare to have fantasy do the whole transhumanism thing so now there are some hints of how the Cosmere might do that side of things I'm all excited. 

 

I'd probably say it would be similar to situation of cutting Miles in half and only one side can regrow back. The soul could only inhabit one body but it probably transfer itself from body to body. I think it would be more like one long blink that death or sleep, depending. As for human mind, that is an interesting idea but i'd still say one soul. It is rare for fantasy and sci-fi to blend altogether. I have faith the Supreme Sanderson overlord will pull it off with storms and colours.

 

Does anyone know how spren interact with shardblade's definitively? Does this mean a robot would or wouldn't be cut by a shardblade?

 

I don't actually know. We know Shardblades don't cut each other and Spren are more Cognitive. Could this mean that A.I's would be considered Cognitive entities and lack very little Physical presence? Hmm, this is fascinating

 

 

 

Robots all get lashed to space or take Division to the face. Or get soupcast, etc.

 

"There are no strings on me"  then a Wind/Spacerunner crewman in a spacesuit quips "Maybe so, but you do have Lashings on you!" (sounded waaaaaaaaaaay better in my head)

 

Edited July 16, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[natc]

If we're taking Roshar into the space age like Scadrial, we'll need reverse lashing fabrials in the spaceships . . . really strong ones.

Adhesion is useless in space though, so the best cosmere astronauts would be coinshots and skybreakers.

Assuming the soul is purely spiritual (well duh) then "inhabit" may not be the correct term, since distance and location is supposedly irrelevant in the spiritual realm. Perhaps it just identifies with the largest piece of "me"?

[StormyAngel]

This is completely off topic here now, but I personally feel the cosmere has to eventually take all of the shardworlds into the space age. If the story extends so far that Scadrial's done it, then the rest of the worlds should at least be somewhat developed by then.

 

And Scadrial's totally going to run into them too. Like, "Whoa! There's people here already! Well let's go find some other perfectly habitable planet to colonize...". Since that's pretty much how it went down for the Listeners...

 

Edit: Typos...

Edited July 16, 2015 by StormyAngel

[VindicationKnight]

Does anyone know how spren interact with shardblade's definitively? Does this mean a robot would or wouldn't be cut by a shardblade? Because if it's the latter...that could have some pretty big implications for future Roshar.

 

I'm picturing a robot army takeover by the Scadriali Imperial Galactic Empire. Take that Knights Radiant.

 

Edit: Oh hey there Oudeis! Fancy seeing you here...

 

My first RAFO Does this make me a 'True Fan™'?

If you don't mind clarifying then the only questions I have left atm are: How does a Shardblade interact with a Spren?

And if full uplifting is practically impossible then are more minor intelligence alterations (like Taravangian) feasible?

Uplifting isn't quite as impossible as I might have implied. It would be easier, say, than making Nightblood. But, of course, making Nightblood was VERY hard.

Shardblades cut on all three realms. I'm not going to say too much here, though I might note that it's possible a robot like you say would act more like nightblood than anything else--depends on what is involved in the creation, and how you determine the difference between a robot and a golem for these purposes.

 

This was the clarification I got if it helps.

[VindicationKnight]

This is completely off topic here now, but I personally feel the cosmere has to eventually take all of the shardworlds into the space age. If the story extends so far that Scadrial's done it, then the rest of the worlds should at least be somewhat developed by then.

 

And Scadrial's totally going to run into them too. Like, "Whoa! There's people here already! Well let's go find some other perfectly habitable planet to colonize...". Since that's pretty much how it went down for the Listeners...

 

Edit: Typos...

I believe there's a WoB that we will eventually see Shardbearers in space...

 

[–]mistborn

1 month ago  

I don't know 40k well enough to say. But you will see Shardbearers in space some day.

 

I knew this from reading about the future timeline but reading you say it just got me excited for books I probably won't read for another 10 years.

 

 

wait WHAT

stormING WHAT.

that's amazing. You've got high sci-fi fantasy coming? That'll be amazing.

Uh... Now I've got this image of Kaladin in modified shardplate(hell, can shardplate just serve as a spacesuit?) floating about in space and Syl appearing with a little bubble helmet.

 

[–]mistborn 9 points

1 month ago  

The cosmere (the shared universe of my epic fantasy books) is interconnected, and eventually there will be space travel between them. Those books are quite a ways down the road, though.

Edited July 16, 2015 by VindicationKnight