Religion and magic---are they inextricably linked?

[Sol Invictus he/him]

Ah! Ok! Thanks! That relieves me. Sometimes non-atheists depict atheists and skeptics as bitter, angry people, when the fact is, most are not in any way, shape or form.

Edited June 29, 2015 by Sol Invictus

[Oudeis he/him]

Mr. Sanderson researched atheism as well as he researches anything (partly why we still don't have Rithmatist 2) and spent a lot of time on atheism boards to accurately portray one. While I'm not atheist myself, I've heard that he's gotten positive reviews from actual atheists who read the books.

[king of nowhere]

I understand Mr Sanderson himself is religious and I respect that, but....atheism isn't about hatred or holding a grudge. All it is is lack of belief.

Yes. But you can disbelief that something is divine without disbelieving the thing.

Take, as an example, lightning. the ancient greeks said that lignthning was sent by zeus. so if one did not believe in zeus, does it mean that he rejected the existence of lightning? Not at all. you believe the lightning is real, you just don't believe there iss a zeus up in the sky throwing it. or if there is a zeus up in the sky, you don't think he's god. he may have supernatural powers that you cannot comprehend, but that does not make him holy. after all, all the marvel superheroes have superpowers, but not many people are worshipping them as gods because of it.

And yes, jasnah is an amazing character and brandon did a wonderful job at describing her. I would have never thought someone as religious as brandon could do such justice in describing an atheist. he said he lurked into atheist forums ("but not church haters or angry people", he said) to get more insight on atheistm.

Yes, you should definitely read the stormlight archive.

[natc]

So in the future, when we have the technology to terraform planets, will we be Gods? Jasnah's point is, just because someone is powerful does not make them an object of worship. Should the people on Sixth of the Dusk worship the Ones Above? They can do all manner of things the backwater people cannot.

Compared to the Christian God I believe in, the Gods of Olympus aren't all that terribly powerful. What, fundamentally, makes something a God rather than a being who simply possesses abilities you do not?

Oh, I agree. They could do without worship.

I'm just saying that Jasnah had a tendency to undersell the importance and power of non-god entities since she admittedly doesn't have a reason to do otherwise yet. Spren are her only available model for such things and she had not met one that can actually do things when that opinion was formed. Spren and shards are quite far removed from each other on the power scale.

Her opinion is probably a tad different now.

[king of nowhere]

well, jasnah believes that the stormfather and the nightwatcher are possibly real, and if so, they are very powerful spren. that's because all she had for proof were vague voices of people who visited the nightwatcher or that had seen the stormfather. she certainly has no reason whatsoever to suspect the existance of shards, or their actions and scope.

a good scientist should balance a willingness to change opinion in the face of new evidence with a healty dose of skepticism - after all, for one einstein who revolutionized his field, there are hundreds of people who made claims to revolutionary discoveries which later turned out to have been genuine mistakes or hoaxes.  jasnah is drawing the conclusion that any good scientist should draw with the evidence she has. she cannot be blamed for not knowing things she has no way of knowing.

[natc]

Not blaming her either.

This began as a description of her atheism.

[Voidus]

Thanks, everyone! Who is Jasnah, by the way? And how can you be an atheist in a world where the supernatural is blatantly true. In the Cosmere, there's even a Realmatic Theory depicting the Spiritual Realm which very easily function as an afterlife. In the real world, lack of evidence of any sort paves the way for atheism and skeptic, but evidence of such things abounds in the Cosmere!

As was pointed out even were she to accept that there were supernatural elements in the cosmere (Which is not necessarily intuitive, we know as readers that that is the case but in-world it could just be perceived as an as-yet-unknown but perfectly natural phenomenon) that does not necessarily equate to believing in gods. Jasnah herself said she might believe in the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher, just not that they are gods.

 

Don't get me going... at first, I was excited to see a well written and intelligent Atheist, but then I realized that within the book she's wrong and ignoring reality so now it just annoys me.

She's a character in Stormlight Archive.

As an atheist (Which really shouldn't be capitalized, sorry, pet-peeve) I found her character to be incredibly true to life and well rounded, sure she has flaws, but so does everyone, she's mistaken in her beliefs but I have no problem with that, much like I'm sure many religious people don't mind reading about religious characters who are emphatically wrong in their belief.

 

Mr. Sanderson researched atheism as well as he researches anything (partly why we still don't have Rithmatist 2) and spent a lot of time on atheism boards to accurately portray one. While I'm not atheist myself, I've heard that he's gotten positive reviews from actual atheists who read the books.

He certainly gets one from this atheist

[Zenith]

Well, this thread has drawn me out of my long semi-lurk

A couple of thoughts:

(WoR Spoilers):

In the last chapter, Hoid implies he believes in a god. Not any of the shards, for sure, and perhaps not even Adonalsium (although, maybe), This may mean he is religious, but I...don't know.

I don't think Jasnah's Atheism holds any less weight because of the Shards. Shards are certainly not gods imo, just beings of tremendous power. Even Adonalsium was not a god, as something was able to shatter him, and if his shards are any indication, his was not omniscient or omnipotent. Shards such as Odium can't kill always kill someone directly (Hoid is a good example of this), nor can they always direectly influence the physical world. They have vulnerabilities, and are often simplistic by nature (their intent or predominate emotion (Honor, Ruin, Preservation etc) overpowers all other feelings to the point that they can't think of much else. Ati (Ruin's Shardholder), was kind and generous, according to Hoid, and he tried to destroy an entire world. Even Harmony is influenced in such a way that he finds it hard to act sometimes.

 

Magic is often tied to religion not because religion = Magic, but because Magic brings a supernatural power not available to others. The Returned and Elantrians were worshipped because of the way they came to be; Returned literally come back to life after being killed, and Elantrians are made by a secret process in the night that makes them glow and able to perform magic. The Returned warp color around them, never age, never get ill, and are usually inhumanely attractive and strong. Elantrians can make food from nothing, teleport, create supernatural lighting, etc.

 

Alloy of Law Scadrial shows that magic and religion are not forcably linked. The religion there is based off of events from the original trilogy, and while those events involve magic, the religion is more because of charisma, planning, etc. Magic has become everyday to the people, and they just don't hold it in the same light as it once was.

...I've rambled waaay to much. Anyway, yeah, that's what I think