Combat Lurchers are insane

[Mr Atmos]

Why on Scadrial would a Lurcher go into combat as a Lurcher?

 

In the original trilogy in the misting teams they were expected to pull any and all of the various dangerous pointy objects towards themselves and rely on an over sized wooden shield to protect themselves. This doesn't sound to me like the safest of jobs in all honesty doesn't even seem that necessary to a team of mistlings (who should generally be able to dodge/deflect/ignore/shield themselves from any coinshots, and coinshots can already knock away any extra metal held). Still, I can see there is an advantage to having one about, especially against a hostile mistborn.This changes in Alloy of Law.

 

Pull must have some kind of death wish. He flies about by pulling himself towards things, heavy metal things, at high velocity... Anyone else see a flaw here? Also his main tactic with bullets isn't the ever so conventional idea of dodging them, but wear full plate and see how many bullets to the chest it can take. He specifically pulls bullets towards his chest to maximize the number of shots on target I guess? No need to aim when fighting Pull, any near thing would probably be pulled on target... Why does he even bother doing this I wonder? Head shots are pretty uncommon which are the only thing it protects against (assuming his funky armour can be made as full body armour).  On that topic, how is his breastplate so conveniently bullet resistant anyway and why doesn't everyone wear one (or everyone who can afford one at least)?

 

Surely a much better way of using the power in combat would be subtly and not go around flying at tall buildings and acting as a bullet magnet, especially in one on one combat. Say act as a perfectly normal grunt until bam, you steal their gun/ there ammo/ metal or drag them out of cover or something.

 

So am I missing something or is going into combat as a Lurcher really as silly as it sounds to me?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

There are several ways to use ironpulling that we don't see.

For example, you could use ironpulling combined with a sling to get a lead bullet up to ridiculous speeds, and use your allomancy to help time the release precisely. Needs more skill than just shooting coins, but slings IRL get ranges of almost half a kilometer. You could probably shoot with more force than your average coinshot

On that topic, how is his breastplate so conveniently bullet resistant anyway and why doesn't everyone wear one (or everyone who can afford one at least)?

The idea is you can't wear full plate of the required thickness - it's too heavy. But if you just wear a single chest plate that's four inches of solid steel, that's entirely possible to carry. Edited April 12, 2013 by Phantom Monstrosity

[Observer]

Lurching is a much more difficult skill than Coinjumping, thanks to their really screwed up flying abilities, so you'd need a rigged stadium to do the back and forth bullet deflection thing.I think they might be better off with a plate on the back as well.

 

If they set theselves up like a slingshot and a 3-way pull, Lurchers can fling themselves. It would be pretty impressive to watch, and even more inpressive to see how they survive it.

[Khmauv]

There are several ways to use ironpulling that we don't see.

For example, you could use ironpulling combined with a sling to get a lead bullet up to ridiculous speeds, and use your allomancy to help time the release precisely. Needs more skill than just shooting coins, but slings IRL get ranges of almost half a kilometer. You could probably shoot with more force than your average coinshotThe idea is you can't wear full plate of the required thickness - it's too heavy. But if you just wear a single chest plate that's four inches of solid steel, that's entirely possible to carry.

It would be possible to carry but a plate that is 4 inches thick assuming it is 12" square that would be ~150lbs. That would be extremely cumbersome.

[Kurkistan]

Why would it need to be a square foot? Go Batman on it and have a fairly small plate just where your center of mass is. Also, I don't think you'd need a full 4 inches to stop a bullet: unless I mis-remember, a specific thickness wasn't mentioned in AoL, so I think Phantom is just exaggerating for effect.

[Khmauv]

I would not want one smaller than a square foot. You have to spread out the impact over a larger area or you will just punch a larger hole in your chest. The more surface area that absorbs the impact the batter IMO.

 

As for 4 inches thick...I agree that is probably overkill but even at 1 inch thick that's a 40lb plate (I am assuming it's steel). That would wear on you if you are trying to move around quickly. 

 

As for the whole idea of pulling bullets to your chest...I think it's reckless and I imagine he has accumulated a very large bruise under that plate not to mention what happens when he faces a coinshot?

 

I am Atmos on this. there has to be a better way. We need a lurcher with some finesse.

[Kurkistan]

I'm not sure why a larger plate would help with surface area. The bullet is still bullet-sized and still hitting one section of the plate, so far as penetration goes. If you're worried about the force of the bullet hitting the plate pushing the plate back, you could just add some more lightweight padding under and around the main section of plate, or suspend it on some kind of lattice that distributed the force over your torso.

 

Pulling the bullet to your chest is one option among many, I agree, but I think that it is certainly one worth having. The next trilogy will probably involve Lurchers using riot shields and whatnot as a first line of defense, and I'm certain Lurchers in the AoL era can do some clever things before relying on the breastplate but, if it were me, I'd definitely want that plate there as a last resort.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Khmauv]

I'm not sure why a larger plate would help with surface area. The bullet is still bullet-sized and still hitting one section of the plate, so far as penetration goes. If you're worried about the force of the bullet hitting the plate pushing the plate back, you could just add some more lightweight padding under and around the main section of plate, or suspend it on some kind of lattice that distributed the force over your torso.

 

Pulling the bullet to your chest one option among many, I agree, but I think that it is certainly one worth having. The next trilogy will probably involve Lurchers using riot shields and whatnot as a first line of defense, and I'm certain Lurchers in the AoL era can do some clever things before relying on the breastplate but, if it were me, I'd definitely want that plate there as a last resort.

Some very good points.

[Pechvarry]

To the original topic of Combat Lurchers being insane:  If you're Double Iron and have a gun, it seems you'd be able to fire a gun and immediately start storing as much weight as possible while pulling on the bullet.  

 

This sounds like a fantastic way to get around fast.

 

It also seems like you'll only do it once.

 

The safer (boring) version is to carry small metal shot-put type paper weights (probably a couple pounds each) and lug them in different directions immediately before tanking your weight and pulling yourself towards them.

[kroen]

Twinborns are rare though, and same metal Twinborns are even rarer.

[Khmauv]

Twinborns are rare though, and same metal Twinborns are even rarer.

This is what makes them interesting. A good reason to write a story about them.

 

edit: 

Pechvarry, I like your style. towing yourself behind bullets...awesome.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Khmauv

[Phantom Monstrosity]

To the original topic of Combat Lurchers being insane:  If you're Double Iron and have a gun, it seems you'd be able to fire a gun and immediately start storing as much weight as possible while pulling on the bullet.  

 

This sounds like a fantastic way to get around fast.

 

It also seems like you'll only do it once.

 

The safer (boring) version is to carry small metal shot-put type paper weights (probably a couple pounds each) and lug them in different directions immediately before tanking your weight and pulling yourself towards them.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/2383-qa-with-brandon-sanderson/page-6

3) Could an iron twinborn "fly" by drastically increasing his weight, pulling hard on a counterweight so it flew above him, then decreasing his weight drastically and pulling himself up by the counterweight, and repeating?

It's plausible. It's kind of a 'Thor-like' way to fly, isn't it? (For those unaware, he throws his hammer and it carries him with it, and STOP THINKING.) I played with this idea, but the trick is not getting hit by the counterweight as you pull it to yourself. If you could stop that, you might be able to manage it, but it felt pretty hard to pull off to me.

[Pechvarry]

I think there would be a rubber band effect where you would fly after the bullet but it continues to get further away. As it loses energy, you would start gaining on it. You would need to "let go" just before this occurs.

And wear an oven mitt. You'll likely collide with your molten bullet but it shouldn't be a devastating impact if you let go before it reversed directions.

[KChan]

Provided the battlefield has the proper setup for this sort of thing, maneuverability can arguably be a Lurcher's biggest strength in combat. Pulling yourself out of the way of an incoming blow, Pulling yourself over to assist a teammate, or even Pulling yourself at your target with a knife in your hand all spring to mind.

Not to mention, double-iron Twinborn could basically function human wrecking balls by crashing into people, knocking them over and likely momentarily stunning them as well.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

1) Take a whip

2) Put a nice sharp blade at the end

3) Enjoy your impossible-to-predict allomantic flail of doom.

[Observer]

I want to see a two-face lurcher who makes coins land his way with allomancy

[KChan]

Hope he's real good friends with a Smoker. Just sayin'.

[Kadrok]

I'd stand behind a solid wall and just pull everything towards me while my metal-less team pounds the bandit/s. Yeah it's a bit boring, but I get to read a book or two while my team cleans up the disarmed foes.

 

 

EDIT: Whoops, sorry. Didn't mean to dig up an old thread.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Kadrok

[Kurkistan]

Sorry K, no way to escape your punishment now: ()

 

[Kadrok]

Sorry K, no way to escape your punishment now: ( )

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Kill it with fire!

[skaa]

Ah, allow me to play with this zombie thread before it dies again.

I have a theory about the Lurchers' metal armor in Alloy of Law. I think those metal plates are made of Allomantic-grade steel. When a Lurcher Ironpulls on a bullet, the Allomantic power flowing from his center of gravity somehow affects the steel plate, producing a Steel bubble-like effect on its surface. The instant that the bullet hits the plate, the Ironpulling effect is replaced by a Steelpushing effect that is just strong enough to divert most of the bullet's force away from the Lurcher's body. That's why we don't see Lurchers get knocked backwards (as a normal person would) when bullets hit their metal plate with a force increased by Ironpulling.

 

I basically got this idea from how aluminum's Allomancy-negating Allomantic power can manifest externally. If there's an obvious flaw in the theory, feel free to point it out. And if there's another explanation for this phenomenon, I'm definitely all-ears.

Edited June 6, 2013 by skaa

[Kurkistan]

Ah, allow me to play with this zombie thread before it dies again.

I have a theory about the Lurchers' metal armor in Alloy of Law. I think those metal plates are made of Allomantic-grade steel. When a Lurcher Ironpulls on a bullet, the Allomantic power flowing from his center of gravity somehow affects the steel plate, producing a Steel bubble-like effect on its surface. The instant that the bullet hits the plate, the Ironpulling effect is replaced by a Steelpushing effect that is just strong enough to divert most of the bullet's force away from the Lurcher's body. That's why we don't see Lurchers get knocked backwards (as a normal person would) when bullets hit their metal plate.

 

I basically got this idea from how aluminum's Allomancy-negating Allomantic power can manifest externally. If there's an obvious flaw in the theory, feel free to point it out. And if there's another explanation for this phenomenon, I'm definitely all-ears.

 

I doubt it, though there's a slim glimmer of hope at the end of a very long tunnel, depending on how exactly the Southerners go about "mechanically" using Allomancy.

 

Such an effect isn't really necessary, though, given that people are not, in fact, "knocked backwards" when impacted by a bullet. It's a gun, not a cannon. Mythbusters had a whole episode about this: if the bullet was strong enough to actually knock someone backwards, it would a) knock the shooter back just as much, if not a bit more and b.) break the shooters hand, arm, and body in the process as the gun did it's level best to kill them on the recoil. So we can just say a Lurcher braces himself a bit to avoid being staggered and call it a day.

Edited June 6, 2013 by Kurkistan

[skaa]

Such an effect isn't really necessary, though, given that people are not, in fact, "knocked backwards" when impacted by a bullet. It's a gun, not a cannon.

 

That's an awesome real life info right there. Have an upvote, Kurkistan!

 

Edit: I have a couple of questions, though. Won't the act of Ironpulling somehow accelerate the bullet further, causing it to hit the plate harder? Won't the force at least make the Lurcher flinch and stop Ironpulling for a few moments, making him vulnerable to multiple shots fired in rapid succession?

Edited June 6, 2013 by skaa

[Phantom Monstrosity]

Won't the act Ironpulling somehow accelerate the bullet further, causing it to hit the plate harder? Won't the force at least make the Lurcher flinch and stop Ironpulling for a few moments, making him vulnerable to multiple shots fired in rapid succession?

It should, and probably.

 

Really the whole 'pull bullets to you' thing is less useful than 'screw up their aim enough for a miss'

[skaa]

It should, and probably.

 

Really the whole 'pull bullets to you' thing is less useful than 'screw up their aim enough for a miss'

 

Okay, but the Pull guy in AoL didn't seem to have any problem with that.

 

He emptied it, firing all six rounds in rapid succession. The Lurcher turned, angling his chest toward Waxillium, sparks flying as the bullets hit his breastplate.

Chapter 18, the Alloy of Law

 

It seems like something funny is going on with that Lurcher armor. Or, I dunno, maybe the Pull guy just had a lot of determination (a Lurcher/Pinnacle Twinborn?).