A Shard in its Natural Habitat; or, What Can't Shards Do?

[Oudeis he/him]

Nalthis is a unique place in the cosmere, seen from a deific standpoint.

 

• Scadrial had two opposing Shards, and ultimately one Shard made of two opposing Intents who has difficulty acting in a meaningful way.
• Roshar originally had two Shards who seemed to work together, but all we've ever seen has been after Odium showed up to shake things up.
• Sel had two Shards who may have worked together, may have opposed each other, or may have operated independently, but are dead now.
• Threnody and First of the Sun don't have full Shards.

 

Nalthis is the only place that has a single Shard operating without, that we know of, any directly opposing force.

 

I believe, and I think most people will agree, that Shards must follow certain rules. They are not, in fact, omnipotent. I think Nalthis might be a good place for us to try to figure out what manner of things Shard can do, and which they can't.

 

We will examine what we can deduce of Endowment's motives, which are little enough. We will search for examples of what Endowment does or doesn't do to achieve these motives. By finding things Endowment expressly doesn't do in his or her own best interest, we might be able to determine what constrains a Shard. We will compare things we have seen other Shards do in their own bailiwicks, especially the things that would have aided Endowment.

 

I have some thoughts, but first I want to open the floor, see what other people think.

[Shadowspren he/him]

Yes we do know that Shards are not omnipotent, we see that preservation can't create because it is not aligned with he shard's intent - to preserve - and thus had to work with Ruin in order to create. 

 

There obviously is some motive behind why shards do what they do, but for most of the 'good' shards we've see their actions are largely based around creating sentient life and sutaining/ protecting it from others. Preservation trapped ruin to protect Scadrial's destruction, and we see Endowment gives a breath to each individual. 

 

A shardholder is limited to the intent of their shard, and becomes more intune with that intent over time. Whereas in HoA, we see that a Shard held for a brief amount of time doesn't limit the holder as much. 

 

Odium kills because that is his intent... and yet he doesn't take other shards when he kills the holder because his motives say otherwise. 

 

Look at the 'letter', it shows that there is a greater scheme afoot, the people who initially held the shards obviously knew each other prior to their ascensions, they took the shards and were going to use them as means to an end, but become limited by the shards intent. 

 

ADDITION: And I find it interesting, a 'God' wouldn't lie or deceive or cause mischeif. But preservation tricks Ruin and binds him after they create everything. Shards can do things that are 'immoral' as long as they are within their shard's intent

Edited June 15, 2015 by Zaci-chan

[natc]

A true, absolute God in the sense that the Shards clearly aren't would be the metric of absolute truth and morality, true omnipotence. Everything they tell you to do is right, and to defy them is to sin. Calling out a 'God' for committing immoral deeds is inherently paradoxical because they can do storming whatever they want and you must agree they did nothing wrong:3

When it comes to shards, well we ought to cut superpowered mortals some slack on the morality department. Polytheistic gods tend to be morally questionable and occasionally even cremlings.

Edited June 15, 2015 by zas678
Be careful of language.

[Oudeis he/him]

Let's look at one obvious example: Just talking to people.

 

But before that, a basic question. Why do Returned, Return? We have Stennimar's POV of standing outside the world talking briefly to someone, before deciding to take the opportunity presented and come back to life to change the future. Can it be deduced from this that Endowment has the capacity to predict what is to come, and that he or she has an interest in history going one way versus the other? Why, or what these motives might be, is a question perhaps best left for another day.

 

I personally believe that yes, she (I'm just gonna say she. Y'all use whichever pronouns you wish. I concede it's just a time-saving device on my part) is trying to affect the course of history, and she does it primarily by sending dead people back to their bodies to affect the course of human events.

 

Yet, Endowment speaks only in that moment. Even when a Returned shambles around without knowing why he or she has come back, even when Lightsong loses his faith, no situation has yet been dire enough for Endowment to speak to anyone. Is this choice? A few words to Blushweaver would have warned her of her fate and convinced her to gather just a few Lifeless guards near her that evening; she'd never have been captured, and her twenty-thousand Lifeless would never have fallen under Pahn Khal control. Did Endowment choose not to give this warning, or was she unable to do so? At that point, prescience wasn't even required. Surely she should have known? Bluefingers may have kept his secrets from mortals, but did he truly manage to hide them from the eyes of Endowment?

[Paragrin she/her]

Personally, I'm calling Endowment 'Eshe' (the Aon for, sure enough, endowment (or gift)) for the moment.

[DreamEternal]

Shards have a hard time speaking to people in general. Vin when holding preservation could only nudge Elend in the right direction, Ruin could only influence the insane and the hemalurgic spiked, Endowment only speaks with the Returned when they are returning.

Elend held a relatively large amount of Preservation's investiture by being a powerful mistborn, and Preservation seems to be a worse shard at speaking with people than Ruin.

Ruin seems to be able to slip into any sufficiently cracked mind, beffiting its goal of breaking everything apart. Plus, I remember an WoB thet said Ruin didn't manipulate writing itself, but the mind of the writer or reader, sadly, I am on mobile and can't post a link. Ruin seems to be exceptionaly good at interacting with people.

Endowment can only speak with people the moment they are receiving a splinter of her.

Odium, while not as pervasive as Ruin, can influence people in a large scale with the unmade, and in a personal scale too, as seem with Lin Davar(confirmed by WoB) and perhaps Elhokar(both are described as looking at people they love who are proto-radiants with hateful eyes, with shadows beneath the surface, only to stop looking at them that way, the darkness warded of).

[Oudeis he/him]

While I'm trying to focus on Endowment when it comes to restrictions, since any other Shard (as stated in OP) might have any number of reasons why they are unable to take certain actions, I am going to point out what they can do.

 

Preservation appeared before Elend, before he was a Mistborn. In fact, he had enough physical presence to stab Elend. Later, without being able to use spoken language, Preservation can nevertheless convey meaning through gestures. What is preventing Endowment from appearing as a spirit before Blushweaver and indicating, "you are in danger." If I were a spirit with no capacity but to show up in front of someone and make an attack, you'd think faking a few attacks would at least convince that person, "Man, am I ever going to surround myself with a LOT of guards tonight..." which is all Blushweaver would have had to do to save herself and prevent the Pahn Kahl from getting all the Lifeless she had control of.

 

In fact, while the Pahn Kahl surely had a plan to capture Lightsong himself, Lightsong's "prophetic" Visions, which may or may not be Endowment trying to communicate, led him directly to them. With his Command Phrase for the other half of the Lifeless. If his Vision had led him to decide randomly to stay at Weatherlove's palace that evening, or to be guarded by Awakeners, or, gee, I dunno, "Hey, these Pahn Kahl servants plan to kidnap you and spark a war," or something specific and useful... the Pahn Kahl played their hand by kidnapping Blushweaver before they knew they had Lightsong. Kalad's Phantoms would never have been necessary; Lightsong could have sent his half of the Lifeless to stop the half the Pahn Kahl controlled, resulting in either victory for his side or a Lifeless army reduced enough by infighting to pose no threat to the Idrians. Granted, he wouldn't have been there to heal the God King, but again, there were plenty of Returned already having Visions all around. No reason they had to successfully kidnap Susebron.

 

So, why doesn't She? Why doesn't Endowment pop up as a spirit and make vague, threatening gestures at Blushweaver? Why doesn't she just stab Bluefingers herself? The fighting got pretty close at times. Lifeless bodies are still human, and the reason they get by on only one Breath is because they obey their human bodies. Immortal Endowment could have teleported around the palace cutting into Achilles Tendons, literally crippling the Pahn Kahl ability to take the Palace and God King.

 

Why didn't she? Why couldn't she?

[DreamEternal]

Preservation had the mists, his "body" all around in the air, while the Breaths are inside of people and things. Also, maybe her intent prohibits her from taking control of Breaths to stop the lifeless, since they were given by her, so they aren't hers anymore.

So the only moment she can interact with people is the very moment they recieve splinters of her.

Edited June 15, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Moogle]

I suspect a huge part of this is "won't" rather than "can't". Sazed is basically omnipotent on Scadrial, but he doesn't stop people from murdering each other. The WoB on him is that his Intent has moved him to inaction - it seems not-unlikely that a similar thing has happened on other worlds.

 

Endowment is about giving and sacrifice. Look at the God King:

It is strange, for me, to interpret these things, for I do not see as normal men do.  I am the God King.  Everything, to my eyes, has the same beauty.

Siri frowned.  “I don’t understand.”

I have thousands of Breaths, he wrote.  It is hard to see as other people do--only through the stories of my mother can I understand their ways.  All colors are beauty in my eyes.  When others look at something--a person--one may sometimes seem more beautiful than another.

This is not so for me.  I see only the color.  The rich, wondrous colors that make up all things and gives them life.  I cannot focus only on the face, as so many do.  I see the sparkle of the eyes, the blush of the cheeks, the tones of skin--even each blemish is a distinct pattern.  All people are wonderful.

He erased.  And so, when I speak of beauty, I must speak of things other than these colors.  And you are different.  I do not know how to describe it.

 

Take for a moment as given that this way of viewing the world also extends to Endowment, except in Endowment's case this is turned to 11. Endowment thinks all people are wonderful, then. (I admit this interpretation may not be solid, since the God King seems to speaking mainly of aesthetics, rather than people's personality.)

 

In this case, why would Endowment favor Blushweaver over the men of Pahn Kahl? Endowment is about giving, not necessarily giving to those who 'deserve' it. Stopping the men of Pahn Kahl would seem counter to the idea of discretionless giving. Its mind is wholly different than a regular human's. Ruin may have seemed vaguely human, but even Vin notes he had major cognitive blocks going on. I wonder just how changed every Shard's mind is...

 

There is also this WoB, which speaks of Endowment's Intent: "The nature of the Warbreaker magic is tied to the shard of Endowment, which is about giving. There are, therefore, things you cannot do for yourself."

 

Just because Endowment is about giving does not mean Endowment needs to give of itself, much like Preservation did not seek to preserve itself. Endowment, it seems likely, wishes to encourage sacrifice, or perhaps just reward it. Perhaps this is why it chooses to act through the Returned (if Endowment is even acting towards any goal - those who Return may just be treated to a vision of something they would like to work towards and Endowment doesn't care), rather than directly contacting people.

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

I think part of the inaction might be built in to the power itself as Moogle says above, but it may have to do with rules governing the individual shards. Honor, in one of the visions says to Dalinar:

 

"I wish I could do more... He is bound by some rules. All of us are." TWoK ch. 75.

"I have said that I cannot be of much help to you" TWoK ch. 52

Depending on how you understand "All of us" (either the 3 shards on Roshar or all 16 shards), it could be saying that the shards have some rules they have to follow regarding contacting humans, cannot give outright help.

 

But then I remember Ruin taking control of Marsh and my conclusion seems wrong.

[DreamEternal]

Ruin seens to find it easier than most shards to influence people, as I pointed above. Makes me wonder if the only reason Odium was considered more dangerous is because Ruin was trapped with Preservation, who trapped part of Ruin's power in the atium and was amazing at seeing the future, because except for the proven capacity to splinter shards Odium doens't sound anywhere as dangerous as Ruin by itself. Or Rayse is just much worse than Ati

Edited June 15, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oudeis he/him]

I think part of the inaction might be built in to the power itself as Moogle says above, but it may have to do with rules governing the individual shards. Honor, in one of the visions says to Dalinar:

Depending on how you understand "All of us" (either the 3 shards on Roshar or all 16 shards), it could be saying that the shards have some rules they have to follow regarding contacting humans, cannot give outright help.

 

But then I remember Ruin taking control of Marsh and my conclusion seems wrong.

 

This is basically what I'm talking about; we also have Vin's thoughts from early in Hero of Ages. The Shards are incredibly powerful but definitely obey certain rules. I'm wondering if a study of Nalthis specifically, where a single Shard exists, presumably unfettered by anything but those rules, might tell us more about them.

 

You bring up an interesting point. Ruin's influence, in his case an ability to talk to people, is easy with anyone who partakes of his specific power. You would think, therefore, that someone with many Breaths, or even a Returned, would be someone Endowment could specifically talk to.

 

Instead, we have this annotation talking about how apparently the best way for Endowment to pass notes before study hall is for someone with many Breaths to be influenced by 'the Tones' (which may or may not be Endowment, or at least related to Endowment), paint a picture, and have that picture end up going to a specific Returned, who will see it and receive some manner of message. That's... oddly specific and kind of complicated. Is it really such a unique trait for a being well worth worship to have the least capacity to actually talk to one of her flock? One already so strongly filled with her power?

[DreamEternal]

Maybe it is because Endowment's intent makes it harder for her to interact with the breaths that she has already given.

[Kelek's Breath he/him]

The Shards are incredibly powerful but definitely obey certain rules. I'm wondering if a study of Nalthis specifically, where a single Shard exists, presumably unfettered by anything but those rules, might tell us more about them.

I'm wondering if knowing the future is one of those things that is possible for all Shards, but some may not be able to pass on their knowledge due to their Intent which would forbid it, i.e Honor (it isn't honorable to know the outcome of your actions, since it would influence your behaviour, thus altering your actions, so you act with as much honor as you can)

Honor, in the visions says that he can see the future if not as well as Cultivation, but he is forbidden about speaking of the future.

[natc]

Getting Lightsong kidnapped in the end wound up restoring Susebron's tongue, so perhaps the god king was needed for something more important than the war and commanding the Phantoms. He is the most Heightened being on Nalthis, the highest concentration of Endowment's power outside of the shard itself. That's probably going to be important in the future.

It's not like anybody other than Lightsong the Bold would've done the same in that situation.

[Guest]

Maybe it is because Endowment's intent makes it harder for her to interact with the breaths that she has already given.

Compare Hemalurgy to Breath. One is literally ripping a whole in the soul, creating a path for communication, while the other is additive, likely strengthening the soul against intrusion. It's possible the only opportunity Endowment has is as the soul is leaving the body, because the Breath(s) in the Soul are rejoining Endowment.

[Moogle]

Regarding issues with the whole mental communication thing: Harmony still only communicates mentally with people with Hemalurgic spikes. Vin and Kelsier could only do it to people they had an immense personal connection with (Elend and Spook), but apparently not others.

 

If a Shard can communicate with anyone who partakes of their power, Harmony should have no problem speaking with Wax due to his being an Allomancer. He shouldn't need the earring. Hemalurgic spikes are low-Investiture, after all, so clearly it's not a matter of "get a lot of Investiture, get a strong bond with the Shard".

 

Obviously Harmony could just do the mist spirit thing, or write a message onto a wall. So, despite this, it's more that he's choosing not to speak (since he could if he really wanted).

 

One might be tempted to think Endowment can't alter the environment like Harmony, but the Well shows that Preservation's power had no compunctions about altering the world at a whim despite being of a Shard all about stasis (it just had problems with murder). Endowment could, if he/she/it wanted, most likely repeat the same feat. What may be in the way of Endowment is how thoroughly the Intent has taken them over. I don't know if Preservation could have used the Well like Rashek did after thousands of years of his mind being warped.

 

So again, my conclusion has to be that Endowment doesn't want to do any of the things that you'd think they might want to do. It is perhaps uninteresting, but there you go.

 

---

 

Regarding one final thing on Honor: he says that "all of us [are bound by some rules]", but I'm still not confident he was referring to the Shards as a whole. It may make more sense to refer only to Cultivation/Honor/Odium being bound. I'd certainly expect Cultivation to be acting in a rage at Odium by giving more superpowers to the Radiants, if nothing else, as opposed to apathy. It suggests Cultivation is quite restricted to me.

 

There's also the problem with a Shard all about oaths/rule following claiming all the other Shards have to follow rules. Ruin believed Preservation was helping him destroy everything, so clearly you become incapable of seeing others except through the lens of your Intent after a while. Someone like Honor would likely believe everyone was following certain rules... which isn't to say that he's wrong, but perhaps that he's exaggerating a great deal.

[Oudeis he/him]

So again, my conclusion has to be that Endowment doesn't want to do any of the things that you'd think they might want to do. It is perhaps uninteresting, but there you go.

 

How then do you explain the Visions, and the destinies? Stennimar died. He saw a vision of what was to come, and heard a voice talk to him.

 

"And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity. To Return." Chapter 57.

 

There was a presence giving Lightsong the chance to go back and make things better. Something or someone sends him visions. When people with enough Breath channel the Tones, they can create works of art that speak to the Returned.

 

You think Endowment is simply ultimately apathetic, that she doesn't want to do anything. Well, there's SOMEONE supernatural who has an agenda and is actively pursuing it. Do you have any guesses as to who that might be?

 

Also; I cannot now locate it, but I thought I knew a WoB where Mr. Sanderson explains that the Shards are like Greek Gods; that there are limits to their power, they aren't omnipotent. It's not simply Honor saying, "Oh, I can't do this, it wouldn't be to my personal code of ethics," that some things are simply beyond their power. I believe it's the Hero of Ages himself who tells us the history of the power he holds, that Leras wanted to make humans, but couldn't alone. Admittedly, this is why Nalthis is a better example; it could be that he was too close to Ruin who would counter any effort to create life. The implication, I believe, however, was that the power of Preservation was simply never going to be strong enough on its own to create life.

[Moogle]

How then do you explain the Visions, and the destinies? Stennimar died. He saw a vision of what was to come, and heard a voice talk to him.

 

"And he remembered a voice, calm and comforting, offering him an opportunity. To Return." Chapter 57.

 

There was a presence giving Lightsong the chance to go back and make things better. Something or someone sends him visions. When people with enough Breath channel the Tones, they can create works of art that speak to the Returned.

 

You think Endowment is simply ultimately apathetic, that she doesn't want to do anything. Well, there's SOMEONE supernatural who has an agenda and is actively pursuing it. Do you have any guesses as to who that might be?

 

To be clear, I'm not proposing that Endowment is apathetic per se. I am proposing that in the areas where we would expect Endowment to have acted more forcefully (for, example, stopping the new Manywar), Endowment is not picking a side and so doesn't help. As I said earlier, I suspect Endowment is okay with helping everyone.

 

The Returned as a whole do not seem to be actively working towards any particular goal. I do not see an "agenda" in the actions of the Returned. One Returned came back to heal their daughter. Blushweaver came back because she saw invaders attacking T'Telir. In other parts of the world, corpses of people who die being heroes are purchased so that rich people can use Returned for healing. (I have a hard time believing that last one fits in with any plan of Endowment's.)

 

So, I suppose I disagree with your interpretation of what the art and Returning is doing. I think you're assuming that Endowment returns people with the goal of manipulating world events, based on Lightsong being spoken to. I think you also think the art is a way for Endowment to communicate with the Returned. However, from my reading of the annotations, it just seems to me that the pre-Returned sees the future after they die (not a vision sent by Endowment in particular - just general future seeing powers, as can be seen in other parts of the cosmere) and head to the after-afterlife, and meanwhile Endowment is offering the particularly noble people who died in a sacrifical way the chance to Return.

 

When they view art, I don't think they're communicating with Endowment. I think the art is just a way to activate the Returned's special ability to see the future/past. All the annotation says is that it can "speak" to the Returned.

 

Of course, it's also possible we're both wrong. WoB is that Endowment is "erratic". It may be that there's a plan, or not a plan, based on how chaotic Endowment is feeling that day.

[ARARITA he/him]

I think Endowment communicates via dreams

[kaellok he/him]

This is basically what I'm talking about; we also have Vin's thoughts from early in Hero of Ages. The Shards are incredibly powerful but definitely obey certain rules. I'm wondering if a study of Nalthis specifically, where a single Shard exists, presumably unfettered by anything but those rules, might tell us more about them.

 

You bring up an interesting point. Ruin's influence, in his case an ability to talk to people, is easy with anyone who partakes of his specific power. You would think, therefore, that someone with many Breaths, or even a Returned, would be someone Endowment could specifically talk to.

I'm frustratingly on mobile, so cannot post link, but there is a WoB that says that when Ruin created humans on Scadrial with Preservation, he created a "back door" in them to allow easier access and influence. None of the other shard world humans were created by their resident Shards, so far as we know.

I also would not be surprised if Endowment is capable of interacting with the living world mostly in ways that are a rather literal interpretation of the Sharp's intent: by giving its power to others. The exception being when people are not in the Physical realm.

I do think that it's rather interesting how much influence Endowment seems to have over those who have died; more, by far, than other Shards we have seen.

[DreamEternal]

Interesting point about Ruin. So that explains why he seems to have had it easier than any other shard to control people.

[Moogle]

...

 

I'd appreciate a link to that WoB when you can manage it. I don't recall reading that one before.

[kaellok he/him]

Found it again, and on re read, i may be reading more into it than is there.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Odium has killed at least one more Shard than the ones we know about.

TAGS

shards, odium,

27

INTERVIEW: Dec 6th, 2014

Orem Signing Report - Zas678 (Paraphrased)

ZAS678

Can Odium influence people the same way that Ruin can?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

[misunderstands question as a question about kandra/koloss/parshendi] Well, you see, the kandra and the koloss have a "hole" in them that allows Ruin to come in and take over. The Parshendi naturally are protected from this, but when they expose themselves to the storms, and the spren come in, many of these spren have that kind of "hole" in them, and that’s what allows Odium to take control of them.

ZAS678

No, I'm talking about how Ruin was able to push people, place things in their minds, stuff like that. Can Odium do the same thing?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Well, Odium wasn't around when those people were created [Here it sounded like the mankind that's on that planet, not the specific generation], so it's a little different for him than Ruin. So if he influences people in that way, it's through the Unmade.