Haelbarde he/him Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 Revelation doesn't really deal with which nations would be doing what - that's more Daniel and Ezekiel. But yes, Revelation is one place where the events of Armageddon are discussed. And no, no fixed date (unfortunately), although it certainly does indicate that something should have happened by the end of this century (but likely much sooner).
Kaymyth she/her Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 And then you have people like me, who read Revelation as thinly-veiled political commentary that was contemporary to the time it was written, rather than actual prophecy. 2
Haelbarde he/him Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 2 minutes ago, Kaymyth said: And then you have people like me, who read Revelation as thinly-veiled political commentary that was contemporary to the time it was written, rather than actual prophecy. Well it certainly has more than a bit of political commentary, including stuff contemporary to the time it was written.
Kaymyth she/her Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Haelbarde said: Well it certainly has more than a bit of political commentary, including stuff contemporary to the time it was written. Prophecy is all in the eyes of the reader. I kind of think Nostradamus was full of crap, too, so it's not just the religion-based stuff.
Haelbarde he/him Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 4 minutes ago, Kaymyth said: Prophecy is all in the eyes of the reader. I kind of think Nostradamus was full of crap, too, so it's not just the religion-based stuff. Sure. I guess for me, that you can go through Daniel and Revelation, interpret elements in a consistent way, and have it discuss important political events, and the development of the Catholic church, as we can read on Wikipedia, or in a history book, is pretty neat.
Kaymyth she/her Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Haelbarde said: Sure. I guess for me, that you can go through Daniel and Revelation, interpret elements in a consistent way, and have it discuss important political events, and the development of the Catholic church, as we can read on Wikipedia, or in a history book, is pretty neat. The sort of flowery text you get in Important Books like that, though, tend to be rich in imagery that can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I'd also question the translators - how much is an accurate representation of the original text, and how much is colored by the translator's opinions? I think that's one of the biggest issues I've ever taken with the philosophy of taking the Bible (or any ancient religious book) literally. There is no such thing as a "perfect" translation. So unless you're fluent in and reading the original language, there are nuances of meaning that have been completely lost. 1
Haelbarde he/him Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Kaymyth said: The sort of flowery text you get in Important Books like that, though, tend to be rich in imagery that can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I'd also question the translators - how much is an accurate representation of the original text, and how much is colored by the translator's opinions? I think that's one of the biggest issues I've ever taken with the philosophy of taking the Bible (or any ancient religious book) literally. There is no such thing as a "perfect" translation. So unless you're fluent in and reading the original language, there are nuances of meaning that have been completely lost. Sure. But a fair portion, you can find other times the word/phrased is used, and get told what the writer was using it for, which you can then take and apply consistently. Translation is an issue, yeah - though referencing multiiple translations can somewhat help, or something like the NET is nice because it comes with a whole bunch of translators notes. Often it's okay, but not always... Re: Taking it literally - you certainly have to be careful. I mean, the history stuff is neither here nor there. Archaeology shows that people certainly existed, and the places are where they're meant to be and all that. But otherwise, yeah. Even after you get around the problem of translation, you've got the culture to consider too. Also, you're going to run into problems if you take self-proclaimed 'books of signs' literally, which some people do... :/
Jondesu he/him Posted July 3, 2016 Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) I heard explained not too long ago that Biblical prophecy is often understood to have up to three meanings in many cases: The immediate application, usually metaphorical, aimed at political leaders or the people as a whole in many cases, though sometimes directed to a specific individual. The spiritual guidance it provides, which isn't time-dependent at all. The future events being prophesied (this is the one we usually think of). So that would explain some of why it seems to be vague and could apply to many things. It's also sometimes not meant to be fully understood or exactly predict events (though some prophecies do, obviously), so it can often end up seeming to apply to many things. It depends largely on why the prophecy was given. EDIT: Prophecy in the Bible is a term for a message from God, not necessarily a prediction of future events. The meaning of the word has changed over time. Wikipedia gives a pretty good definition: Quote Prophecy involves a process in which one or more messages are allegedly communicated to a prophet by God or spirits and often are then communicated to other people. Such messages typically involve inspiration, interpretation, or revelation of events to come (compare divine knowledge). jW Edited July 3, 2016 by Jondesu
Darkness Ascendant he/him Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 18 hours ago, Daniyah said: Eid Mubarak to all the Muslims here! Eid Mubarak !! Ramadan is officially over (And I made a decent 115 dollars so far-through eidie) 1
Dani she/her Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Darkness Ascendant said: Eid Mubarak !! Ramadan is officially over (And I made a decent 115 dollars so far-through eidie) Lucky I don't even have any relatives here to get eidie from, just parents. Edited July 6, 2016 by Daniyah
Jo and the Bush all/any Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 What's Eid Mubarak, and can Non-muslims wish it to muslims?
Stormgate he/him Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 On July 2, 2016 at 10:29 PM, Kaymyth said: And then you have people like me, who read Revelation as thinly-veiled political commentary that was contemporary to the time it was written, rather than actual prophecy. The Apostle John, who wrote Revelation, was part of a religion that gave no heed to borders or governments. In fact, all of his companions were systematically killed for their beliefs. Though he was in exile at the time, neither he nor the founder of his religion, Jesus, offered any sort of political commentary unless cornered by their opponents. If you look in Revelation, you will read a description of helicopters, by someone who had no idea what it was, "And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months" A helicopter. Don't say it wasn't prophecy. 1
Mestiv he/him Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 12 minutes ago, Stormgate said: "And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months" A helicopter. Don't say it wasn't prophecy. More like a manticora to me 1
Kaymyth she/her Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 13 minutes ago, Stormgate said: The Apostle John, who wrote Revelation, was part of a religion that gave no heed to borders or governments. In fact, all of his companions were systematically killed for their beliefs. Though he was in exile at the time, neither he nor the founder of his religion, Jesus, offered any sort of political commentary unless cornered by their opponents. If you look in Revelation, you will read a description of helicopters, by someone who had no idea what it was, "And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months" A helicopter. Don't say it wasn't prophecy. Funny, I would think that a group that eschews government and is persecuted by it would be among the first to criticize it. That description sounds to me like what would happen if a harpy and a manticore got together and had babies. That's the thing about flowery language; it can be easily interpreted into a number of different directions. You could give that description to 100 different artists, and each one would come up with something completely different. In short, I can absolutely say it wasn't prophecy. Because I don't believe that it was. 1
ThirdGen Posted July 6, 2016 Posted July 6, 2016 27 minutes ago, Stormgate said: The Apostle John, who wrote Revelation, was part of a religion that gave no heed to borders or governments. In fact, all of his companions were systematically killed for their beliefs. Though he was in exile at the time, neither he nor the founder of his religion, Jesus, offered any sort of political commentary unless cornered by their opponents. If you look in Revelation, you will read a description of helicopters, by someone who had no idea what it was, "And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months" A helicopter. Don't say it wasn't prophecy. Somebody in that time who was given an accurate vision of a helicopter would have seen some major differences between these winged armored scorpion men and helicopters: - They have (presumably long, flowing) hair. - They have iron or iron-like breastplates, they're not made entirely of iron. - They have wings. - They have scorpion tails with stingers. The poison is described as taking five months to recover from. As opposed to a propellor, which simply chops you up. Some other missing features that would indicate a helicopter: - Bullets or anything resembling them. - Missiles or anything resembling them. - Containing people, weapons, etc. - Hovering rather than swooping like a bird. I don't need to say it wasn't prophecy. But I can plainly see that's not a helicopter. 3
Dani she/her Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 7 hours ago, The Only Joe said: What's Eid Mubarak, and can Non-muslims wish it to muslims? Eid Mubarak is wishing someone a happy eid (Eid means "celebration" and Mubarak means "blessed"). And yes, they can
Delightful Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 14 hours ago, Darkness Ascendant said: Eid Mubarak !! Ramadan is officially over (And I made a decent 115 dollars so far-through eidie) 14 hours ago, Daniyah said: Lucky I don't even have any relatives here to get eidie from, just parents. Eid is the end of Ramadan, right? Or is it the name of any festival and one just happens to be now? pretty cool that you get money (do you mind my questions? :l )
Delightful Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 6 hours ago, ThirdGen said: Somebody in that time who was given an accurate vision of a helicopter would have seen some major differences between these winged armored scorpion men and helicopters: - They have (presumably long, flowing) hair. - They have iron or iron-like breastplates, they're not made entirely of iron. - They have wings. - They have scorpion tails with stingers. The poison is described as taking five months to recover from. As opposed to a propellor, which simply chops you up. Some other missing features that would indicate a helicopter: - Bullets or anything resembling them. - Missiles or anything resembling them. - Containing people, weapons, etc. - Hovering rather than swooping like a bird. I don't need to say it wasn't prophecy. But I can plainly see that's not a helicopter. To a certain degree I believe that there are biblical prophecies, but I'm with Kaymyth and ThirdGen here. That doesn't sound like a helicopter. Some elements I can see but only some. As in, I believe there is truth to the Bible (/Old Testament), but I don't believe we can necessarily interpret accurately, particularly not to something that hasn't yet happened. Cant work out out how to edit with a quote. :l
Dani she/her Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 2 minutes ago, Delightful said: Eid is the end of Ramadan, right? Or is it the name of any festival and one just happens to be now? pretty cool that you get money (do you mind my questions? :l ) There are two Eids in a year. The one that's now is "Eid al-Fitr" which is celebrated after Ramadan is over (you're right ). The other one is called "Eid al-Adha" and it's celebrated at the end of Hajj (this year it's going to be in September). (Oh I don't mind)
Delightful Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 15 minutes ago, Daniyah said: There are two Eids in a year. The one that's now is "Eid al-Fitr" which is celebrated after Ramadan is over (you're right ). The other one is called "Eid al-Adha" and it's celebrated at the end of Hajj (this year it's going to be in September). (Oh I don't mind) (Awesome) I thought Haj was a pilgrimage to Mecca. What's Hajj?
Haelbarde he/him Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 6 hours ago, Stormgate said: The Apostle John, who wrote Revelation, was part of a religion that gave no heed to borders or governments. In fact, all of his companions were systematically killed for their beliefs. Though he was in exile at the time, neither he nor the founder of his religion, Jesus, offered any sort of political commentary unless cornered by their opponents. If you look in Revelation, you will read a description of helicopters, by someone who had no idea what it was, "And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months" A helicopter. Don't say it wasn't prophecy. See, I'd interpret that section (Revelation 9:1-11) as referring to the Muslims from ~637AD until caliph al-Radi around ~940AD. As far as descripions of "future tech" goes, I'd instead point at verses 17-19 of that chapter pointing to the cannons used by the Ottoman Turks in their siege of Constantinople. Quote [17] And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. [18] By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. [19] For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Dani she/her Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 4 hours ago, Delightful said: (Awesome) I thought Haj was a pilgrimage to Mecca. What's Hajj? You can spell it as Haj or Hajj, it's the same thing
Delightful Posted July 7, 2016 Posted July 7, 2016 12 minutes ago, Daniyah said: You can spell it as Haj or Hajj, it's the same thing What I'm asking is, is it a yearly holiday, or a once in a lifetime holiday? I thought Haj was once a lifetime?
Recommended Posts