Kurkistan he/him Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Moderator Note: This series of posts originally appeared in this thread as a response to this post. If Investiture cannot be created or destroyed, why can a Feruchemist 'make' seemingly infinite amounts of it through metalminds? So I'm guessing that this answer isn't enough to convince you that Feruchemy acts just like Breath in terms of where the power comes from? Was Hemalurgy itself changed to make koloss able to reproduce? Or did Harmony just find a new technique to make them? Or, what’s going on there? This is covered in the AoL version of the MAG, I believe. Either way Peter covers it all pretty well in two posts here. Edited May 22, 2015 by WeiryWriter 1
Moogle Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 So I'm guessing that this answer isn't enough to convince you that Feruchemy acts just like Breath in terms of where the power comes from? This is covered in the AoL version of the MAG, I believe. Either way Peter covers it all pretty well in two posts here. Metalminds are Invested, from what I understand. If they act like Breath, there should be an upper limit to how many metalminds you can fill. Is that what you're suggesting I should read that WoB as? My reading of that could also indicate that Feruchemy works the opposite of Lift's ability, in that your physical attributes are turned into Investiture, but you return to normal after (much like Lift can just eat another meal and be none the worse for wear). As to Hemalurgy, Peter's posts don't explain anything (and we could have guessed the breeding answer from our current WoBs - Brandon has previously said Hemalurgic sDNA is not passed down as much as natural). I don't have the AoL MAG - should it be considered canon enough on this question that I should look for it? I'm mainly interested in whether or not Hemalurgy itself (as in the system - like, will steel spikes now steal different things, or did Harmony change the bindpoints) was changed, or whether humanity on Scadrial was changed (ie. are they now more resistant to Spiritweb changes, so that the koloss spiking method still steals the same thing and is put in the same bindpoints, but now they are not changed as montrously).
Kurkistan he/him Posted May 21, 2015 Author Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) Metalminds are Invested, from what I understand. If they act like Breath, there should be an upper limit to how many metalminds you can fill. Is that what you're suggesting I should read that WoB as? My reading of that could also indicate that Feruchemy works the opposite of Lift's ability, in that your physical attributes are turned into Investiture, but you return to normal after (much like Lift can just eat another meal and be none the worse for wear). Ah, I see the problem as you see it now. I hadn't considered that Breaths are treated as finite despite creating energy; I was focusing on the fact that they create energy. But if the "energy" we're talking about is Investiture itself, then yes you're right it does sound like I'm talking about the soul being gradually siphoned off into a metalmind. I hadn't meant to imply that. It's odd because energy is energy is energy so far as I'm normally concerned, but here we have to recall that the energy represented by a rock on top of a hill is apparently of a fundamentally different type than what's contained in Breath. Feruchemy being like Lift's ability is an interesting thought. Building on my comment about the oddness of segregating different "types" of energy, perhaps it's a matter of converting the "real" energy you can non-entropically produce with Investiture (like using an Awakened rope to pull up a rock) into yet more Investiture? This runs into the issue of the new "Investiture can not be created or destroyed. It follows it's own version of the laws of Thermodynamics" WoB. As an FYI (not sure if you knew this, as I certainly forgot it for a moment) Lift doesn't create Investiture from food, she "gates" it in. Source: Argent: Does Lift turn food into investiture directly or is it similar to the metals on-- Brandon: Similar to the metals. Argent: So like a gate? Brandon: Yes. Argent: Okay, that’s good to know. Brandon: She can metabolize-- She can draw-- It’s not actually the food, it’s-- It’s not like the metals, not exactly. It’s not-- What she can do is she can metabolize into investiture instead of sugar. Does that make sense? Argent: Yeah. Brandon: We metabolize food into sugar. She can metabolize it into investiture. Does that make sense? Argent: That makes a lot of sense. So if she eats-- Brandon: She’s got to have a blood sugar spike. Argent: So if she eats like a cake it will give her more investiture-- Brandon: Faster . It will give her faster. Argent: Whereas if she eats a vegetable... Brandon: Vegetable... More calories is going to equal more. But the better comparison would be a sausage and bread. Because bread is a fast blood sugar spike and the sausage is not. And that’s how I’m working in my head. It’s kind of a magical version of a blood sugar spike and I have it happen to her faster than it could happen. Like normally you eat a piece of bread and your blood sugar spikes in a half hour, it’s going to go faster for Lift. Argent: Her’s is like five minutes. Brandon: Her’s is like five minutes, but a sausage would be slower. Perhaps Feruchemists can "gate in" energy similarly? But that would run counter to its internal nature. Another option is that they do in fact make non-Invested contributions/sacrifices when storing, but it's at that point that Investiture gets gated in fill the metalmind with proportional amount of investiture... Requires some thought, I think. -- Re: Hemalurgy The AoL MAG doesn't go much beyond that on reproduction, that I recall. There was a short story (written by Brandon) that implied/kindof-stated some of the stuff Peter said, but he covers just about all of it. I see that Peter's comments on reproduction don't address your core concern about monstrosization via Hemalurgy. That is covered in the story: Across from me, atop the ridge on the other side of the canyon, a group of blue figures watched my cavern. The hulking koloss were older ones, their skin stretched and broken... [...] ...There were six of them, medium-sized koloss, their blue skin starting to pull tight across their bodies, ripping at the sides of the mouths and around the largest of muscles. [...] [(in-world) Editor's note] 33 For those confused — which includes Jak — [spiking with spikes] really is the way that one becomes a full koloss Their children are born with skin that ranges from blue to mottled grey, but not the deep blue of true koloss These children are generally human, though have some generous endowments of physical capability. Each child is offered the choice to make the final transformation when they reach their twelfth year Those who do not accept the transformation must leave and join human society By my estimation, many do leave — but just as many ordinary humans, dissatisfied with their lives in the cities, make their way to the koloss tribes and join them, accepting the transformation From there, no distinguishing is made between those who were originally humans or koloss-blooded The story ends with Jak finding a cache of charged spikes, which is of great value to the Koloss since they've been running out. Edited May 21, 2015 by Kurkistan
Moogle Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 As an FYI (not sure if you knew this, as I certainly forgot it for a moment) Lift doesn't create Investiture from food, she "gates" it in. The Lift WoB is slightly confusing, because Brandon goes on to say "well, no, it's not like the metals, exactly". Brandon has recently confirmed that all matter is Invested slightly (as I recall, the recent AMA?), so I could see the Investiture in the sugar molecules (or other things) being drawn out of them. But I agree, on rereading this WoB it does heavily favor the gating interpretation. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I remembered it as being much more unclear than it is. The AoL MAG doesn't go much beyond that on reproduction, that I recall. There was a short story (written by Brandon) that implied/kindof-stated some of the stuff Peter said, but he covers just about all of it. I see that Peter's comments on reproduction don't address your core concern about monstrosization via Hemalurgy. That is covered in the story: My core concern isn't monstrosization, really. It's how Sazed achieved this state. There are a few options I can think of: Humans are now more resistant to Spiritweb changes on Scadrial. Hemalurgy itself was changed, making spikes cause changes that are slightly different from FE-era Hemalurgy. Humans have been changed slightly, be it by changing the locations of bindpoints or causing them to react differently to spikes. Something else. My question was about which of these options Sazed used.
Kurkistan he/him Posted May 21, 2015 Author Posted May 21, 2015 (edited) The Lift WoB is slightly confusing, because Brandon goes on to say "well, no, it's not like the metals, exactly". Brandon has recently confirmed that all matter is Invested slightly (as I recall, the recent AMA?), so I could see the Investiture in the sugar molecules (or other things) being drawn out of them. But I agree, on rereading this WoB it does heavily favor the gating interpretation. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I remembered it as being much more unclear than it is. I can't locate the matter-investiture question myself, though I recall it as well. I'd be interested to see it again, at the very least. Re: Monstrsiazation Ah, I get it now. If you don't mind me saying so, I'd suggest heavily tweaking your question then, to expand to the whole realm of "make Koloss able to reproduce, make them live a bit longer when spiked, etc." - If you want my personal opinion I just came up with 10 seconds ago, I'd say none of the above, and rather that Sazed just grabbed the spikes in existing koloss and moved them over a bit to other bind points that achieve a slightly different effect. Then AoL-era koloss just perform the same slightly-modified hemaluryg (perhaps even with Harmonious guidance) on new inductees. Edited May 22, 2015 by Kurkistan
WeiryWriter he/him Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Hey do you guys mind if I split this disccusion off into it's own thread, so we don't clutter this event thread with non-event stuff? 1
Kurkistan he/him Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 Hey do you guys mind if I split this disccusion off into it's own thread, so we don't clutter this event thread with non-event stuff? Sure, sorry for being all disruptive with our Awesome.
Moogle Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 Ah, I get it now. If you don't mind me saying so, I'd suggest heavily tweaking your question then, to expand to the whole realm of "make Koloss able to reproduce, make them live a bit longer when spiked, etc." Good advice. I made it more explicit about how it was accomplish rather than what happened. If you want my personal opinion I just came up with 10 seconds ago, I'd say none of the above, and rather that Sazed just grabbed the spikes in existing koloss and moved them over a bit to other bind points that achieve a slightly different effect. Then AoL-era koloss just perform the same slightly-modified hemaluryg (perhaps even with Harmonious guidance) on new inductees. This would make the most sense, and fit in with the theory of Shards being unable to alter their own magic systems, but I can't help but feel there's going to be only so many combinations of bindpoints that end up creating viable creatures that such a small alteration should not be possible. Other ideas: The spikes used lost most of their charge, resulting in less severe deformation. The spikes were re-spiked over and over, resulting in what happened to Human happening to a much more significant degree. (Harmony may have done this to the spikes via direct intervention.)
Kurkistan he/him Posted May 22, 2015 Author Posted May 22, 2015 Side note: It's quite disconcerting each time "I" "start" a "new" thread like this... I could see those other ideas working.
Edgedancer he/him Posted May 22, 2015 Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) To poke my head into this discussion. Do metalminds actually create Investure? I mean Investure is the power of creation and everything even physical matter is made out of Investure. So it seems to me less like they create Investure and more that they hold it in a more magical form for use in a latter moment. That is from the AMA by the way, though I think it was around longer. http://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/2ytg2h/im_novelist_brandon_sanderson_ama/crbc3kw?context=3 Edit: Thinking about it, Hemalurgy can take a person's physical strenght (and other traits) out of the spirit-web, which can then give other people the potential for more physical strenght. So how likely does it seem that Feruchemy drains from the same parts of the spirit-web, just internally and non-lethal? Edited May 22, 2015 by Edgedancer 1
Moogle Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 To poke my head into this discussion. Do metalminds actually create Investure? I mean Investure is the power of creation and everything even physical matter is made out of Investure. So it seems to me less like they create Investure and more that they hold it in a more magical form for use in a latter moment. ... Edit: Thinking about it, Hemalurgy can take a person's physical strenght (and other traits) out of the spirit-web, which can then give other people the potential for more physical strenght. So how likely does it seem that Feruchemy drains from the same parts of the spirit-web, just internally and non-lethal? The issue I have with Feruchemy draining some part of your Spiritweb is that it puts a finite limit on how many metalminds you can fill. Sazed has filled metalminds for years without negative effect, as far as I know. My current understanding of the matter (as given on the AMA), is that Feruchemists are essentially doing the opposite of what Allomancy does. You've got a nozzle that 'squeezes' Investiture from a tube out into a shape (Allomantic/Feruchemical effect), and Feruchemists are essentially just reversing the process and sticking the effect (physical attribute enhancement) back through the nozzle, and putting it into the tube - later they can draw on it1. Combined with this WoB on metalminds being "middle of the realm" in terms of how full of Investiture they are, I'm thinking a human spirit should not have that much Investiture that it can create years and years worth of metalminds without suffering something along the lines of losing your Breath. I am still not sure on the solution to this problem, but I suspect there are no long-term effects to making lots of metalminds equivalent to losing your Breath. There must be a source somewhere. 1 This suggests Allomancy can do the same thing. Given a Steelpush, it seems to me you should be able to force 'it' through some steel and get raw Investiture back (though it may be stored back in the Spiritual with the rest of Allomantic Investiture, so there'd be no real use for this trick.)
Guest Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 My core concern isn't monstrosization, really. It's how Sazed achieved this state. There are a few options I can think of: Humans are now more resistant to Spiritweb changes on Scadrial. Hemalurgy itself was changed, making spikes cause changes that are slightly different from FE-era Hemalurgy. Humans have been changed slightly, be it by changing the locations of bindpoints or causing them to react differently to spikes. Something else. My question was about which of these options Sazed used. Humans WERE changed: Sazed undid TLR's adjustments that made surviving the ash easier. At the minimum, TLR probably shifted around some nasal features (to filter the ash), resized the lungs, and probably enlarged the liver (to process toxins from the ash). That would've moved the other organs (and therefore associated bindpoints) around, making some closer together and others farther apart.
Edgedancer he/him Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 The issue I have with Feruchemy draining some part of your Spiritweb is that it puts a finite limit on how many metalminds you can fill. Sazed has filled metalminds for years without negative effect, as far as I know. My current understanding of the matter (as given on the AMA), is that Feruchemists are essentially doing the opposite of what Allomancy does. You've got a nozzle that 'squeezes' Investiture from a tube out into a shape (Allomantic/Feruchemical effect), and Feruchemists are essentially just reversing the process and sticking the effect (physical attribute enhancement) back through the nozzle, and putting it into the tube - later they can draw on it1. Combined with this WoB on metalminds being "middle of the realm" in terms of how full of Investiture they are, I'm thinking a human spirit should not have that much Investiture that it can create years and years worth of metalminds without suffering something along the lines of losing your Breath. I am still not sure on the solution to this problem, but I suspect there are no long-term effects to making lots of metalminds equivalent to losing your Breath. There must be a source somewhere. 1 This suggests Allomancy can do the same thing. Given a Steelpush, it seems to me you should be able to force 'it' through some steel and get raw Investiture back (though it may be stored back in the Spiritual with the rest of Allomantic Investiture, so there'd be no real use for this trick.) I don't think the spirit web is a resource that can run out per se as much as it can only create that much strenght at any given moment. Afterall once you spike someone with the extra strenght they don't get x amount of extra strenght and once they use that the charge in the spike is used up. They get more potential for having physical strenght. Seeing that a Hemalurgic spike can create tecnically an unlimited amount of he atribute it stole, why should storing it in a metalmind be different? So while Hemalurgy relocates the scource of the power Feruchemy probably drains from the strenght that gets created by the scource/spirit web somewhere in it's transition from abstract spiritual concept to actual physical phenomenon.
Arook he/him Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 A change in their personality could simply be that without Ruin to egg them on to kill, like he did to so many others TLR included and with Harmony to whisper peaceful things in their mind maybe they simply over came some problems. Harmony and Ruin could easily talk to anyone with a spike. The other thing to think about is preservation put some of himself into humanity to create them. It is possible that each person living holds a small portion of both ruin and preservation but more preservation than ruin. It was the reason he had to trap ruin is he was no longer equal in strength to ruin and had to trick him and divide his power so Vin would later be able to kill Ati and Harmony could be created. If each person alive holds a small portion of preservation than in theory with a high enough population Preservation's power goes down. Granted the number of living people needed to make a difference in preservation power is massive somewhere in the billions or trillions probably. Sorry Point was each person little bit of the shards.The Spirit web not infinite but finite. Also I don't think whats stored in a metal mind is actually investiture just a record.
Kurkistan he/him Posted May 23, 2015 Author Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) Regarding metalminds: A new thought: Perhaps the good old AoLAAA model of feruchemy could come to the rescue here? As explained most clearly that I've seen by Aaradel (though Chaos is the one to bring up up a few posts earlier), perhaps Feruchemy is best modeled by "time scuttling" the attributes that are stored: pushing them forward through time rather than storing them, in the strictest sense. This is a looser model than what I myself argued for later in that thread (that the time-scuttling was just an abstraction), but may save us now. So, following this model, what metalminds store is not raw investiture, but rather connection to moments in the past when power was "earmarked" for future use. The Feruchemist says "I'm going to use 5% of the strength-aspected investiture output I have later" and that output is pushed into a bit of a temporal limbo, waiting for future use. So what the metalmind stores is a pointer to that piece of investiture at that point in time, rather than storing the power directly. To draw out a metaphor a bit, let's say that you have a computer that's capable of a really lame version of communication backwards/forwards in time. It works just like a normal computer, except for the fact that it can pre-commit some of its processing power to be used by a future version of itself. So if on Monday it says "I'm going to save 50% of my power for later", then on Friday it can operate at 150% by using its past-selves spare processing ability. At no point during all of this does the computer, strictly speaking, "create" more processing power, nor does it really "store" the power: it just allocates it and then does or does not take advantage of this allocation at some future date. EDIT: So under this model metalminds "store" investiture by reference, rather than by value; in order to comply with metalminds still being invested, then it seems we'd have to assume that "by reference" storage of investiture is still enough to count as invested. @Arook What do you think is stored then, that allows metalminds to be invested? Edited May 23, 2015 by Kurkistan
Moogle Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 ... While I like this model, I have two issues with it: Nothing in it really explains why drawing more power from a metalmind gives diminishing returns. I certainly wouldn't predict it a priori.1 As you noted, merely being a reference has to be enough to make it count as Invested. I have major issues with this idea, as I see no reason why it should act as if it were Invested without actually being Invested. I would, for example, predict Nightblood could feed on a metalmind. If it is in fact Invested, we're still stuck on the problem of infinite Investiture. Otherwise, I find the model quite compelling and elegant, though I'd really like to get Feruchemy and Allomancy on the same level like I've been doing with my model above. 1 I have no idea if footnotes make me look like a pretentious jackass, but I notice I always go off on ridiculous tangents inside parantheses, so this should clean up my posts. The idea of there being a storage of Investiture which is piped out, if we assume Investiture follows some variant of fluid mechanics, does in fact allow for power losses. The Darcy-Weisbach equation states that losses due to friction are proportional to the square of flow rate. So, if we draw on 2x strength rather than 1x strength, requiring 2x as much Investiture, we lose 4x as much to whatever "friction" exists along the Feruchemical pipe. This matches somewhat with the books. Other possibilities include the fact that flow rate is proportional to the square root of pressure - which, perhaps, might be better expressed as the fact that kinetic energy is proportional to the square root of velocity. To get 2x the flow from a pewtermind, I need to essentially give every Investiture-particle 4x as much kinetic energy. If the metalmind's own energy is drawn to power the flow, then we end up with the same diminishing losses as well. (A full treatment of the idea of potential energy in reference to this will have to wait for another post.) Either way, I find this naturally fits my prior model, where Feruchemists take a shaped-Investiture relating to the attributes of their body, and shove it reversed through the nozzle of a metal to wait for it to be drawn. I don't know if it fits the time-shuttling model, though I suppose you can still see the metalmind as a pipe. ... I think I've argued myself out of my original objection.
Arook he/him Posted May 23, 2015 Posted May 23, 2015 (edited) @KurkistanI agree with your post about what happens but the user never touches the investiture in feruchemy the investiture acts as a gate keeper. Think ram memory on a computer while powered information is available to be used but when power lost information lost. The energy used was the user's energy investiture bonds with it in the metal and stores it then releases it back to the user never interacting with the user. When stored energy is burned by a twin born then investiture is burned with and amplifies the type of energy stored.I hope that made sense. That is how I have always thought of feruchemy Edit: Fixed kurkistans' name Edited May 24, 2015 by Arook
Kurkistan he/him Posted May 24, 2015 Author Posted May 24, 2015 (edited) @Moogle For diminishing returns, I'd actually prefer to refer you to Aaradel's point that I linked to last post. I think it sounds perfectly sensible to say that connecting up to more than one past time at once takes some more energy to do, thus explaining quotes from Brandon about how you need to spend energy "compounding" together smaller intervals of storage. I'm also disturbed still by metalminds being registered as invested, but... maybe we can get away with it? Brandon's hinted that Shardic power, at least, is enough for time travel. So it's not wholly inconceivable that metalminds are just a smaller manifestation of this possibility, wedging open a little pipe into the past. If so then I wouldn't be surprised if Nightblood would be able to feed through this conduit like it was a straw, without the power necessarily needing to be right there "at the surface", perhaps? EDIT: Here we take up the perhaps dubious stance that Nightblood wouldn't feed on the investiture itself, at least directly, but rather on its "output", leaving the base investiture alone and still firmly attached to the Feruchemist, though expended and in need of the usual retrieval ala how Breath normally works. --- Regarding Feruchemy possibly being similar to Allomancy, I will caution you a bit on that hope by recalling to you that the two were designed for entirely separate worlds, at least at first. It's quite possible they had the same background workings the whole time, or that Brandon retroactively tweaked them to be more similar, but it's a thought worth keeping in mind as we perhaps begin to evaluate models on the grounds of how much it does/does not look like Allomancy. P.S. I lied when I said that I was talking about time-scuttling as an abstraction later in the thread I linked to. The thread instead dissolved into the eventual definition of "surging". The larger discussion I was thinking of occurred in this thread. @Arook First of all, I am not a geo-cultural region. On topic: An interesting way to think of it... One concern, though, is that even with this model we still seem to run afoul of the "infinite investiture" problem, since it looks like we're still getting arbitrary amounts of new investiture being bound to the metalminds alongside the energy from the attributes themselves. Edited May 24, 2015 by Kurkistan
Moogle Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Regarding backwards time travel... I'm not sure I want to open that particular can of worms. Brandon's been suitably coy about us only seeing time travel forwards, which makes me hopeful that the possibility of backwards time travel never materializes. Either way, it's not an issue for Feruchemy, since it would be forward time travel anyways. I also find this idea of Nightblood dereferencing the Feruchemical powers to be dubious. I briefly misinterpreted what you said, and thought about Nightblood feeding on a metalmind would cause the Feruchemist to keel over, grey and dead, in the past, but it became much more sensible and less of a paradox on a reread. As to how Feruchemy originally being from a different world... not sure that it matters significantly in this case. I sincerely doubt the actual powers of the magic systems are at all representative of their underlying workings. If Brandon wanted, I have no doubt Feruchemy's powers could have replaced Awakening on Nalthis, the difference being you give your attributes to other people to fit with Endowment or something (and obviously you wouldn't use metal). The underlying mechanics should be suitably abstracted away. Because of this, I would hope all the Metallic Arts share a common underlying system, though I will grant you that it shouldn't be a prime criteria for evaluating a model. As a new train of thought, then: We observe the following: A Feruchemist stores an attribute. Temporarily, they are bereft of it. Investiture is created linearly(?) with time. After, the Feruchemist has their attribute return to normal. Extended metalmind storing does not seem to have permanent effects. We know that Feruchemy is internally powered. It is end-neutral. Given that Invesititure cannot be created or destroyed, merely turned into different forms, the only consistent explanation is that Feruchemists are losing Investiture. To fit with the final observation, it seems they must regain it from elsewhere. However, there is a problem: Nalthians don't regain lost Breath. Why can Feruchemists? What are possible ways to harvest Investiture from the environment?
Edgedancer he/him Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 As a new train of thought, then: We observe the following: A Feruchemist stores an attribute. Temporarily, they are bereft of it. Investiture is created linearly(?) with time. After, the Feruchemist has their attribute return to normal. Extended metalmind storing does not seem to have permanent effects. We know that Feruchemy is internally powered. It is end-neutral. Given that Invesititure cannot be created or destroyed, merely turned into different forms, the only consistent explanation is that Feruchemists are losing Investiture. To fit with the final observation, it seems they must regain it from elsewhere. However, there is a problem: Nalthians don't regain lost Breath. Why can Feruchemists? What are possible ways to harvest Investiture from the environment? Maybe we can diferentiate between one solid batch of Investure and Investure that is moving through the system. To compare it to the human system, we might get suddenly weak if we don't eat enough and lack the nutrition to to do any heavy work but that doesn't mean that the humans capability to digest nutriens into energy and from there power the muscles suddenly changes or disappears. To again draw a comparision with Hemalurgy, once spiked the recipent is constantly drawing on the charge in the spike. Yet, as long as hemalurgic decay doesn't weaken the charge, the charge could last for an infinite amount of time and with that effectively create an infinite amount of the atribute in the recipent. To me that seems like there's a difference between the consistent investure in the spirit web that allows for potential of the attribute and the actual Investure/energy or whatever you want to call it that ultimately takes an effect in the physical world.
Arook he/him Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 @Kurkistan Oops stupid phone sorry @Moogle I am a little confused by one thing your saying that a person with a charged spike is drawing on said spike. I do not see that as being a good explanation of how hemalurgy works. So in my understanding hemalurgy steal a attribute tied with investiture. Then when outside a body that bleeds of slowly, then after being placed in a New spirit web it bonds to and enhances that web. So in the case of taking allomancy it's not allowing you to draw on the spikes charge to power the allomancy but enhances the the amount you can draw on from the metals. Spiking someone should create about as much investiture as chaining a misting to someone. Side thought any one know if a sentient awakened object made of scadrial metal could be used for hemalurgy or would there be no space for the hemalugic charge?
natc Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Good luck getting ninth heightening and a thousand breaths to test that question :3 It might even just be Nightblood 2.0 and become a shardblade, where it just vaporizes you or worse. btw Scadrial metal is 100% normal.
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Side thought any one know if a sentient awakened object made of scadrial metal could be used for hemalurgy or would there be no space for the hemalugic charge? My understanding is that the metal forming Nightblood is "full" of Investiture, but that the metal he's made from would be capable of Hemalurgy if there was any space left for storage. As Natc said, Scadrial metal is 100% normal. An Allomancer could burn Rosharan steel no problem, since at the Atomic scale they make the same patterns.
Arook he/him Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 For some reason I thought I heard it needed to be scadrial metal
Guest Posted May 24, 2015 Posted May 24, 2015 Thought just popped into my head! If Nightblood's metal us "Full", does that mean it stopped absorbing Breath before the Awakening completed?? Assuming I'm wrong and Nightblood is fully Awakened, if a Shardblade-sized sword was Awakened, would it have "space" left for Hemalurgy??
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