Turos Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 (edited) I have been thinking. I'm not much of a facts and sources person. I listen and when I hear the same stuff enough times, I work off of my intuitions. Here's an idea based on some patterns and repeated info. But first, the thoughts leading up to it: What have we seen from all of the shardholders? Each example we have seen more closely and from Words of Brandon, the shard changes the person, to a large extent. Sometimes the intents align, but in general, it seems, the host is subject to much of what their shard is all about. Here's another thought: Hemalurgy has been said to happen in other worlds. That's funny, since Preservation and Ruin are only found on one planet. It's a magic built around both of their intents, right? I don't think it stops there. If this was restricted to Scadrial, where the said shards have an effect, the power would also be restricted, at least in origin and practice. That's the funny thing about hemalurgy, though, isn't it? As far as I am aware, there's no evidence that it is really dependent on the spiker's sDNA. Everything rests on who was killed to create a spike. Even the recipient doesn't seem to matter. Between these two points of reference, is there a similarity? In hemalurgy, a recipient of a spike becomes altered, and the more spikes, the larger the change. Powers from the spike victim's sDNA are passed along, just like with a shard. Other spiritual elements are affected as well, like with a shard. There's a difference, though, isn't there? One who is spiked recieves damage to their soul while the spike remains. Why are they twisted by this? My belief is that the residual pieces of the victim's soul are interfering with the recipient's. What if the spike didn't have a soul attached, only the powers and a bit of directive? My theory is that hemalurgy is actually a byproduct of the Shattering, and that holding a shard, and even a splinter, is a purer form of that art. As far as naming of the magic system, it makes sense it's called hemalurgy. That's a product of hemaglobin and metallurgy. Blood and the study of metals. These are things the Scadrians, specifically the Steel Ministry, understand about the magic. Their world only has one 'focus', metal. If my theory is true, hemalurgy could have a more fitting title referencing focuses in general. On a side note: If hemalurgy is happening in other worlds, whether this theory is valid or not, doesn't that mean that new hemalurgic constructs, such as kandra, koloss and inquisitors, are also possible? Have we perhaps seen evidence of any so far? Edited May 17, 2015 by Turos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 The one requirement at the foundations of hemalurgy is that someone must be doing it on purpose. It's kind of difficult to just discover it like that, and for all we know the only ones who knew of it prior to the trilogy were Ruin, Preservation, and people who had Ascended. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 The Lord Ruler tried for a thousand years to make new Hemalurgic constructs and failed, if it is possible it would almost certainly require Shardic intervention.Additionally Hemalurgy on any other planet may well require Atium to work since all the other metals steal specific things. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted May 17, 2015 Report Share Posted May 17, 2015 I'm sure physical strength is probably a commonly occurring trait in human species . . . but then again the spiritweb programming might have an effect on the results. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindrunnerRadiant Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 It also might be possible that a different version of Hemalurgy is used on other worlds. It is probably all a similar process with similar results. However, there is a WoB (not sure were) that says that the magic systems existed before the Shattering, but that the shards changed the magic and investiture on the worlds they ended up residing on. Therefor, if Hemalurgy does exist elsewhere, it is probably not the Hemalurgy of Scadrial. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 This one's going to be nit-picky, but I think important. Here's another thought: Hemalurgy has been said to happen in other worlds. That's funny, since Preservation and Ruin are only found on one planet. It's a magic built around both of their intents, right? I don't think it stops there. If this was restricted to Scadrial, where the said shards have an effect, the power would also be restricted, at least in origin and practice. That's the funny thing about hemalurgy, though, isn't it? As far as I am aware, there's no evidence that it is really dependent on the spiker's sDNA. Everything rests on who was killed to create a spike. Even the recipient doesn't seem to matter. The SHARD of Preservation and Ruin are on Scadrial, and is concentrated there, but the Power permeates the galaxy (universe?) Hemalurgy is a product of Ruin only. Investiture Powers are generally not restricted by location (Sel is special), rather the restriction is one of practical reality. Anyone who's a Mistborn is a Mistborn anywhere in the galaxy. Take a Knight Radiant from Roshar, stick them on Scadrial, and they're still a KR (but good luck finding Stormlight for them to use). The reason Mistborn (and Mistings) ONLY exist on Scadrial is because humans on Scadrial were imbued with the power of Preservation (and Ruin) when they were created. That Investiture is what makes them Mistborn, regardless of their physical location. You're absolutely right about Hemalurgy being unusual in it's global applications and it's non-fussyness about who uses it, bit I think you're wrong about who USES Hemalurgy. The person getting the BENEFIT of Hemalurgy is the Spiker, but the person USING Hemalurgy could be said to be the Spikee. On a side note: If hemalurgy is happening in other worlds, whether this theory is valid or not, doesn't that mean that new hemalurgic constructs, such as kandra, koloss and inquisitors, are also possible? Have we perhaps seen evidence of any so far? There are absolutely other creatures that can be created (Sazed states as much in HoA), but the creation is so finicky that this is unlikely to happen without a LOT of experimentaion. 16 known metals, 8 known bind points, unlimited number of spikes possible in a creature, virtually limitless spike placment options. Assuming we know all of the metals, and all of the bind points, that's 128 spikes we can work with... but we can double/triple/quadruple up on them for extra power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Investiture Powers are generally not restricted by location (Sel is special), rather the restriction is one of practical reality. Anyone who's a Mistborn is a Mistborn anywhere in the galaxy. Take a Knight Radiant from Roshar, stick them on Scadrial, and they're still a KR (but good luck finding Stormlight for them to use). I actually don't know if a KR would be able to Surgebind off of Roshar without some hacks. I've written up my thoughts on this here. I suppose it depends on how you define 'KR', but your post did deal with whether or not magic systems were universally usable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindrunnerRadiant Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Brandon has said that different forms of investiture can be used to replace the one from someone's origin world. <Words of Radiance spoiler> We know that Vasher is on Roshar - he trains the use of shardblades and plate if I remember correctly. But he needs breaths to survive. With this, he can use Stormlight to replace breaths. Brandon said it is more difficult to do (if I remember correctly) but it is certainly possible. Also <another spoiler here> Nightblood is on Roshar as well, and seems to be doing fine without using Breaths - also theoretically due to replacing it with Stormlight. On the other hand, I don't know what sort of investiture a surgebinger would be able to use on Scadrial. I would guess that a Feruchemist would have to store the identity to the extent that it is zero and then store investiture and a surgebinder could use that, but it seems like a lot of work to go through. Now I have to wonder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turos Posted May 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Would they draw upon the mists? It's the closest thing to Stormlight, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arook Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Would they draw upon the mists? It's the closest thing to Stormlight, I think. No if I understand correctly to use the mists you need to have some kind of link to preservation other wise all mistings and mistborn would have used the mist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Would they draw upon the mists? It's the closest thing to Stormlight, I think. The mists are self-aware, and currently part of Harmony. Vin used the mists because of a combination of her being chosen by them and Leras having very little mind of his own left. I wonder if they got a bit of Lerasium, would they be able to burn metals to power surges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 This also raises the question of where the investiture channeled throught the external metals goes, directily to the target or first to the body of the allomancer, and then to the target Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 It would have to go through the Allomancer, otherwise Breeze couldn't have selected which emotions to dampen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindrunnerRadiant Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 The mists are self-aware, and currently part of Harmony. Vin used the mists because of a combination of her being chosen by them and Leras having very little mind of his own left. I wonder if they got a bit of Lerasium, would they be able to burn metals to power surges? Possibly. However, I have started to assume that people on Scadrial have some innate investiture within them and that the metals just dictate how it is released. There isn't any explicit support for this, I just think it likely because Feruchemists and Nicrosil ferrings are able to store investiture. Also, as soon as they ate Lerasium, they would become a full Mistborn in addition to being a surgebinder, so I'm not sure they would have to worry about using surgebinding on Scadrial. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Possibly. However, I have started to assume that people on Scadrial have some innate investiture within them and that the metals just dictate how it is released. There isn't any explicit support for this, I just think it likely because Feruchemists and Nicrosil ferrings are able to store investiture. Also, as soon as they ate Lerasium, they would become a full Mistborn in addition to being a surgebinder, so I'm not sure they would have to worry about using surgebinding on Scadrial. They definitely do have innate Investiture, from both Preservation and Ruin (tiny bit extra from Preservation). Scadrial is unique in that we have "confirmation" (Sazed's writings) that the humans there were made specifically by the Shards, from their power. All the other planets we've seen, we don't know if the humans came about "naturally" and then the Shards began guiding them, or if something else happened. Mistborn can't regrow limbs/control gravity/construct illusions. So a Surgebinding Mistborn would we pretty super-awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turos Posted May 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Doesn't Lerasium rewrite the spirit web? Wouldn't this erase surge binding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 Doesn't Lerasium rewrite the spirit web? Wouldn't this erase surge binding? Since it also turns normal people into mistborn I'd think it's less rewriting and more that the flood of power awakens the dormant potential to the point of blowing a hole in your soul big enough to burn anything. With a tad of rewriting. Surgebinding shouldn't be genetic. In fact snapping into a mistborn might guarantee the possibility of a spren bond's success due to the spiritual damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindrunnerRadiant Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Doesn't Lerasium rewrite the spirit web? Wouldn't this erase surge binding? Also, Lerasium doesn't directly effect a person's personality. They might change due to their new found power, like a leader turning corrupt after being in office, but it doesn't directly change them. Surgebinding is tied to the Nahel bond, which needs a certain type of person. What I mean is that as long as Kaladin stays honorable, being a Mistborn wouldn't effect his Surgebinding abilities. And lets be honest, we all kind of want to see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 (edited) Doesn't Lerasium rewrite the spirit web? Wouldn't this erase surge binding? More like "adds on". So I'm writing this sentence [edit] and add this part [/edit] [edit] and then edit again to add this information, without deleteing anything[/edit] Edited May 22, 2015 by LabRat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.d41b1ca865930ccf5f63b08a839f908e.png){kind=logo}
Recommended Posts