Long Game 12: Shadows of Elantris

[Wyrmhero he/him]

Gyorn suspect pool: M’Hael, Jain, Clanky, Dow, Araris, Piff/Em, Claincy, Ostrich, Karlin, Aonar/Wyrm, Seonid, Wonko/Sart

Odiv suspect pool: Luckat, Wilson, Kas.

And I'm going to put a vote on Wyrm. For this, I am truly sorry, brother. I would appreciate it if no one else follows me in doing so.

 

I can only assume you are voting for me because I'm on the Gyorn list? Unless there's something else you'd like to grill me about. I've no idea how I can refute that, other than to say that I have a Role (if an unimportant one) - not that I can provide any proof of this easily.

 

I'd like to hear from Ostrich, I think. He still hasn't been replaced, so he must be doing something behind the scenes.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Wyrmhero

[Kasimir he/him]

I can only assume you are voting for me because I'm on the Gyorn list? Unless there's something else you'd like to grill me about. I've no idea how I can refute that, other than to say that I have a Role (if an unimportant one) - not that I can provide any proof of this easily.

 

I'd like to hear from Ostrich, I think. He still hasn't been replaced, so he must be doing something behind the scenes.

My reasons are my own, Wyrm-cyning. I do not expect to be followed in them, and they will become readily apparent with the passage of time. For now, I prefer to hold my peace as one never needs unsay that which has not been said. (The bit where I'll look like a right fool if I'm wrong in this can pass unspoken. ) I will say this: it's nothing to do with the Gyorn list, but a completely separate matter. Just a hunch.

[Bort he/him]

Thanks for the welcome back, Hael

 

Well, that was a fun few days. Elantris is coming along quite nicely, although they do still seem to suffer from a minor grime problem. Perhaps I'll start a charity drive... Equip Elantris! Donate cleaning products to send into the fallen city. Other than that, it's a nice place. Nice people too. Now, at least.

 

My vote for Phattemer was for RP reasons. He called us all (as in, everyone outside of Elantris) 'inferior', and then threatened to have me lynched if I didn't acquiesce (basically, if I didn't do what he said and vote where he wanted). So, I made an RP comment back, and voted for him to show that I wouldn't be bullied. NOTE: THIS WAS ALL DONE IN GOOD NATURED RP. NO-ONE WAS ACTUALLY OFFENDED IN REAL LIFE. Did you see a post made by Gamma sometime in the past few cycles reminding everyone of etiquette rules? I think that was because of the exchange between myself and Phatt.

 

As for getting him hoeded, why should I care if it did? I learned the hard way in the last game that some people don't care what their objectives are, if they want to play their own game and betray their team, they do so. I had a reason to vote for Phattemer, so I did.

 

Actually, it's the same reason that makes me wonder why Wilson and Meta were so surprised to discover that people were using vote manipulation early on. Do you really expect people to listen when some of you deliberately go out of your way to screw over your own side? 

 

My reasons are my own, Wyrm-cyning. I do not expect to be followed in them, and they will become readily apparent with the passage of time. For now, I prefer to hold my peace as one never needs unsay that which has not been said. (The bit where I'll look like a right fool if I'm wrong in this can pass unspoken. ) I will say this: it's nothing to do with the Gyorn list, but a completely separate matter. Just a hunch.

 

Confirmed or not, this looks pretty dodgy. Wasn't Kas one of the ones that disapproved of people coming along and voting for someone, but not sharing their reasons? For that matter, what do we have confirming Kas as Dula? There was something iffy with one of the votes on him, as I recall, but what was done after that to confirm him? Or are we really going to take his word for it? In a game where he himself has told people 'Trust no-one'.

 

My vote is going to have to be for Ostrich. As Wyrm said, he hasn't been posting, but he hasn't been replaced, which means he is active somewhere. Since he's not sharing any signs of activity with the rest of us, we have to assume the worse.

 

Edit: Actually, I'd like to hear why Kas thinks Luckat must be Odiv if I am Gyorn. I'm not, which Meta will probably verify later on, but I am curious.

 

Edit 2: I see our hotels are still crowded... 4 guests lurking.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Bort

[Haelbarde he/him]

Thanks for the welcome back, Hael

 

You're welcome, Bort.

 

 

My vote for Phattemer was for RP reasons. He called us all (as in, everyone outside of Elantris) 'inferior', and then threatened to have me lynched if I didn't acquiesce (basically, if I didn't do what he said and vote where he wanted). So, I made an RP comment back, and voted for him to show that I wouldn't be bullied. NOTE: THIS WAS ALL DONE IN GOOD NATURED RP. NO-ONE WAS ACTUALLY OFFENDED IN REAL LIFE. Did you see a post made by Gamma sometime in the past few cycles reminding everyone of etiquette rules? I think that was because of the exchange between myself and Phatt.

I had wondered about that. I guess that would explain it.

 

Confirmed or not, this looks pretty dodgy. Wasn't Kas one of the ones that disapproved of people coming along and voting for someone, but not sharing their reasons? For that matter, what do we have confirming Kas as Dula? There was something iffy with one of the votes on him, as I recall, but what was done after that to confirm him? Or are we really going to take his word for it? In a game where he himself has told people 'Trust no-one'.

Kipper voted on him a few cycles back, and it came back as not counting. Could mean a few things. Kipper's a Keeper, so could have voted secretly - he denies doing so however. Kipper and Kas could be lovers, or Kas could be Dula. Pretty sure there is no other reason why someone's vote wouldn't count towards the vote count. I've been indecisive of whether or not to actually keep a vote on Kas to verify, but Kas put a vote on himself. Hero has said to me, and apparently Kas, that you can vote for yourself, and Kas' vote came back as 0. I mean, Kas could be a Keeper of the Secret Tunnels I guess. If you really wanted to be sure, someone else would need to put a vote on him. I wasn't sure if it was something I should do or not. From what we have though, it seems likely?

 

Edit: Actually, I'd like to hear why Kas thinks Luckat must be Odiv if I am Gyorn. I'm not, which Meta will probably verify later on, but I am curious.

 

That was me, actually, who suggested that. I was under the impression (I didn't go back and check this though), that when you got poisoned, Lukat got converted the same night. Wilson (and Kas, seeing as entering/leaving Elantris is the last thing to resolve at night) was then converted while you were in Elantris. If you were Gyorn, you wouldn't be able to target players outside of Elantris, and seeing as Wilson was converted, you would need an Odiv to continue your job. The only non-Elantrian convert was Lukat, so if you had been Gyorn, the only way conversions could still happen outside of Elantris was if Lukat had been Odiv. You not being Gyorn doesn't clear Lukat from being Odiv, but if we discovered you were in fact the Gyorn, we could know with certainty (provided I got the facts right) that Lukat was the Odiv. 

It wasn't a big detail, but I thought it was worth noting just in case you were Gyorn.

[Bort he/him]

Ah, thanks Hael. That has cleared up a lot for me.

 

If I were the Gyorn, that would have been one hell of a deduction.

 

Note to self: Keep an eye on Hael for future games.

[Kasimir he/him]

Actually, it's the same reason that makes me wonder why Wilson and Meta were so surprised to discover that people were using vote manipulation early on. Do you really expect people to listen when some of you deliberately go out of your way to screw over your own side?

Interesting insinuation. I'll give you a A+ for rhetoric, a B- philosopher's disapproval because rhetoric cannot replace effective reasoning. Are you trying to insinuate that Wilson and Meta have "deliberately gone out of [their] way to screw over [their] own side?" When did that happen and how? Call the presses!

Confirmed or not, this looks pretty dodgy. Wasn't Kas one of the ones that disapproved of people coming along and voting for someone, but not sharing their reasons? For that matter, what do we have confirming Kas as Dula? There was something iffy with one of the votes on him, as I recall, but what was done after that to confirm him? Or are we really going to take his word for it? In a game where he himself has told people 'Trust no-one'.

And here, you've made a glaring conceptual conflation. I am against voting without reasons. It is perfectly obvious that players may have reasons but choose to withhold them for strategic purposes. Meta did that. Storms, our Almighty GM, Hreo himself did that--in the AG. And as far as I'm concerned, I've said I do have reasons and will happily agree to be more forthcoming at a later time. Now, it would be hypocritical if I didn't expect to be called on it, as the distinction is unobvious, particularly to those who do not have access to my reasons, when in play. However, your point isn't about any of that. Your point is merely claiming that I am contradicting my own principles and there is something strange in that. My rebuttal is that it is therefore inaccurate reasoning to assume I am contradicting my own principles. I am not. That criticism lacks bite.

In fact, you mustn't have been paying very much attention to the thread, huh? Twice, a vote vanished on me. Once from Kipper, and once my own vote. I could not have been a Keeper as there was no extra vote appearing in the tally yesterday. Like it or not, I am the Dula, darling xoxo

Edit: Actually, I'd like to hear why Kas thinks Luckat must be Odiv if I am Gyorn. I'm not, which Meta will probably verify later on, but I am curious.

Well, I'm not the only one who would like to hear from Elantris. Don't suppose one of our Seon-holders has a direct line? And it's interesting you credit that view to me since I specifically credited the M'Hael with pointing it out to me. He noted that since a conversion external to Elantris happened, either Luckat must be the Odiv, or you cannot be the Gyorn. Now:

In strict terms of propositional logic, the two statements are not logically equivalent. Fortunately for us, because we know of the Gyorn's targeting restrictions, they do conveniently come out equivalent: to say that either Luckat must be the Odiv or you cannot be the Gyorn is therefore equivalent in this case to saying if and only if you are the Gyorn, Luckat must be the Odiv.

Edit: Ninja-ed by the M'Hael. Alas. Such is life.

Edit 2: In retrospect, I would not represent the logically equivalent statement with a biconditional. I think I'd stick to the simple hook since it's obvious there could be cases where Luckat is the Odiv yet Bort not the Gyorn.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Kasimir

[Haelbarde he/him]

Note to self: Keep an eye on Hael for future games.

Bother. I'm going to need to compile a list of people's lists that I've made it on. :/

 

In strict terms of propositional logic, the two statements are not logically equivalent. Fortunately for us, because we know of the Gyorn's targeting restrictions, they do conveniently come out equivalent: to say that either Luckat must be the Odiv or you cannot be the Gyorn is therefore equivalent in this case to saying if and only if you are the Gyorn, Luckat must be the Odiv.

 

Yay, formal logic, but not true. iff (if and only if) means that the statements are completely reversible. But we could not say that Bort = Gyron iff Lukat = Odiv, because another player as Gyorn could have made Lukat Odiv, and only one of them did converts.

 

The way I worded it was a bit weird though - If Bort = Gyron, then Lukat = Odiv (but words) would have been better.

 

Edit: Ninja-ed by the M'Hael. Alas. Such is life.

 

Ha. My turn for once.  

[Kasimir he/him]

Yay, formal logic, but not true. iff (if and only if) means that the statements are completely reversible. But we could not say that Bort = Gyron iff Lukat = Odiv, because another player as Gyorn could have made Lukat Odiv, and only one of them did converts.

 

The way I worded it was a bit weird though - If Bort = Gyron, then Lukat = Odiv (but words) would have been better.

Sorry, I ninja-ed you there when I realised I shouldn't have used the bi-conditional and should've stuck to the simple conditional. This happens when you do too much modal logic and Graham Priest: your basic propositional logic starts to get funky

Edited June 8, 2015 by Kasimir

[Wyrmhero he/him]

My reasons are my own, Wyrm-cyning. I do not expect to be followed in them, and they will become readily apparent with the passage of time. For now, I prefer to hold my peace as one never needs unsay that which has not been said. (The bit where I'll look like a right fool if I'm wrong in this can pass unspoken. ) I will say this: it's nothing to do with the Gyorn list, but a completely separate matter. Just a hunch.

 

If I am right in how you are thinking, my response is that you are not wrong.

[Haelbarde he/him]

Sorry, I ninja-ed you there when I realised I shouldn't have used the bi-conditional and should've stuck to the simple conditional. This happens when you do too much modal logic: your basic propositional logic starts to get funky

Aww... Also, big words D:. I've only come across iff in mathematical proofs.

[Kasimir he/him]

Aww... Also, big words D:. I've only come across iff in mathematical proofs.

We can pretend I did not ninja you, if it makes you feel any better Also, they're just technical terms because I don't trust myself to remember the actual symbols and truth tables correctly. Yes, I'm doing advanced formal logic...but that doesn't mean I'm not completely pants at it

[Haelbarde he/him]

We can pretend I did not ninja you, if it makes you feel any better Also, they're just technical terms because I don't trust myself to remember the actual symbols and truth tables correctly. Yes, I'm doing advanced formal logic...but that doesn't mean I'm not completely pants at it

It's great for making one sound smart thought.

 

Slightly off topic, I had a couple other ideas for Elimination games, and this time, when I checked, you didn't already have a game that did the same thing. So now I've just got to hope you don't ninja me in posting them.

[Claincy he/him]

Just an FYI. I am very sick and basically incapable of analysis at the moment. (Even ignoring my exam tomorrow.) Hopefully I'll recover reasonably quickly (it is theoretically possible at least) but if I don't and remain unable to participate for too long I'll step aside and ask for a pinch hitter to replace me. I really hope it doesn't come to that though.

Sorry

Edited June 8, 2015 by lord Claincy Ffnord

[Bort he/him]

 

Interesting insinuation. I'll give you a A+ for rhetoric, a B- philosopher's disapproval because rhetoric cannot replace effective reasoning. Are you trying to insinuate that Wilson and Meta have "deliberately gone out of [their] way to screw over [their] own side?" When did that happen and how? Call the presses!

****************************

And here, you've made a glaring conceptual conflation. I am against voting without reasons. It is perfectly obvious that players may have reasons but choose to withhold them for strategic purposes. Meta did that. Storms, our Almighty GM, Hreo himself did that--in the AG. And as far as I'm concerned, I've said I do have reasons and will happily agree to be more forthcoming at a later time. Now, it would be hypocritical if I didn't expect to be called on it, as the distinction is unobvious, particularly to those who do not have access to my reasons, when in play. However, your point isn't about any of that. Your point is merely claiming that I am contradicting my own principles and there is something strange in that. My rebuttal is that it is therefore inaccurate reasoning to assume I am contradicting my own principles. I am not. That criticism lacks bite.

In fact, you mustn't have been paying very much attention to the thread, huh? Twice, a vote vanished on me. Once from Kipper, and once my own vote. I could not have been a Keeper as there was no extra vote appearing in the tally yesterday. Like it or not, I am the Dula, darling xoxo

**************************

Well, I'm not the only one who would like to hear from Elantris. Don't suppose one of our Seon-holders has a direct line? And it's interesting you credit that view to me since I specifically credited the M'Hael with pointing it out to me. He noted that since a conversion external to Elantris happened, either Luckat must be the Odiv, or you cannot be the Gyorn. Now:

In strict terms of propositional logic, the two statements are not logically equivalent. Fortunately for us, because we know of the Gyorn's targeting restrictions, they do conveniently come out equivalent: to say that either Luckat must be the Odiv or you cannot be the Gyorn is therefore equivalent in this case to saying if and only if you are the Gyorn, Luckat must be the Odiv.

Edit: Ninja-ed by the M'Hael. Alas. Such is life.

 

I added stars to the quote so I could easier respond.

 

Your first point. Not Wilson or Meta. The third SE mod - Gamma. He was a 'villager', but turned traitor and helped the Spies. If a mod of all people can just play their own game, screwing over the other innocent players in a game, for a laugh, why can't others? Interesting note, if Gamma hadn't betrayed everyone in MR6 (I think it was MR6 anyways - the Great House War), then in the interests of a villager victory, I probably wouldn't have voted for Phatt, but Gamma opened my eyes to the idea of playing my own game in SE, and Phatt gave me a reason to vote for him, so I thought, 'Why not?'

 

Your second point. You're right. I haven't been paying as much attention to thread the past few cycles while I was in Elantris. Scanning through it to see what is happening, sure, but detailed analysis, I didn't. Unfortunately, that may also have included paying attention to exactly who said what. Someone complained about people just adding votes onto someone without sharing their reasons, but if it wasn't you, who was it? And will we hear from them again because you've not said anything about why you want to vote for Wyrm.

 

And, fair enough, dearie. Multiple vote shenanigans do support you being Dula.

 

Third point. As I said to Hael, that was some good logic there. Shame it's wrong.

 

Edit: It was MR6 I was thinking of - A Venture in Atium.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Bort

[Haelbarde he/him]

Well, I think for the moment, I'm going to put my vote on Ostrich, because it really has been long enough. 

[Bort he/him]

Just checking...

 

Hero, since it's not in the your write up, am I right in thinking this cycle will end at 4am Wednesday (9 or 10pm Tuesday to you guys in the States, I think)?

 

Edit: Wow. 7 people viewing the thread, and I can see who 6 of them are!!! That's some kind of new record.

 

Edit 2: It's always the guests that leave after a comment like that. I always have to wonder who they are.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Bort

[Kasimir he/him]

Interesting note, if Gamma hadn't betrayed everyone in MR6 (I think it was MR6 anyways - the Great House War), then in the interests of a villager victory, I probably wouldn't have voted for Phatt, but Gamma opened my eyes to the idea of playing my own game in SE, and Phatt gave me a reason to vote for him, so I thought, 'Why not?'

I'm trying to follow the implications of your reasoning here. So, by your own admission, you're following the playstyle of someone who betrayed the Village and crossed over to play as an Eliminator for lulz. This is the precedent you are using as justification for your actions. You are, in effect, claiming that like Gamma, you have decided to play against Team Arelon. Is that it? Because I gotta say, that pretty much sounds like an upfront admission that you've decided to go off and be an Eliminator, no matter what your initial PM from Hreo said.

Someone complained about people just adding votes onto someone without sharing their reasons, but if it wasn't you, who was it? And will we hear from them again because you've not said anything about why you want to vote for Wyrm.

First, if such a person does exist, please provide your link to the source post. And then I'll leave it to them to defend their reasoning as I cannot speak for whether they, too, perform the same conceptual conflation you are still making. Talk without links is cheap, and in the long press of the game, it can be easy to misattribute what someone said to another person. I myself have accidentally done that with Kipper.

And Kipper: I know this sounds strange, but could I ask if you would be so kind as to demonstrate your 1337 Keeper powers by putting that secret vote on Claincy please? Then we can confirm you on the non-Gyorn list, for one.

[Bort he/him]

I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to say I was going off to be an Eliminator, only that matters of village obviously mean less to some people, so if I have a reason to vote for someone, I'll vote for them, regardless of their roles or powers.

 

Such a person does exist, and I will provide a quote for you. It may take a while, as I'm at work, but in my spare time, I'll go through the main thread and try to find the quote I'm talking about.

 

Can I just say here, thanks again Hael. Your links will come in very handy for this.

[Haelbarde he/him]

And Kipper: I know this sounds strange, but could I ask if you would be so kind as to demonstrate your 1337 Keeper powers by putting that secret vote on Claincy please? Then we can confirm you on the non-Gyorn list, for one.

To be clear, Kipper, you'd need to public vote someone to truly demonstrate that. You may put your vote on me if you wish. 

 

Can I just say here, thanks again Hael. Your links will come in very handy for this.

 

Your welcome . 

 

GM Question: Can I designate an heir for 'Official Quick Link Poster'?

[Guest]

I will secret vote for Claincy, and my normal vote is on little wilson, just because I don't think anyone else will vote for her.

Edit: Secret vote sent.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Guest

[Kasimir he/him]

I will secret vote for Claincy, and my normal vote is on little wilson, just because I don't think anyone else will vote for her.

Edit: Secret vote sent.

Much appreciated, Kipper. Thank you very much

[Guest]

No problem.

Kasimir, I would like to know why you vote for Wyrm and ask no one else to. Obviously something will happen. Do you suspect that he is another Dula?

[Kasimir he/him]

So much for being closed-mouthed about my reasons, huh? Alright, Kipper, you win

Ren and I have suspected for some time that there is a second Dula. It's more a hunch than anything, partly to do with player numbers and the way Hreo phrased responses to some clarifications about the Dula and love triangles, both to me and pre-game (for the latter.)

If there is a second Dula, we've narrowed them to the set of <M'Hael, Aonar/Wyrm, Claincy, Karlin, Seonid, Meta.> This is the set of people who have never been voted on. For obvious reasons, we may want to exclude Meta from there, which is why he is at the back of the priority list.

Since the M'Hael started with poison, I had hoped to quietly test the two likeliest candidates--Wyrm and Claincy--and try to clear two people (Dula #2 and yourself) at one shot. I guess that wasn't really gonna happen, huh?

Edit: I should clarify that the overall set is not in terms of priority/likeliness. Meta was put at the end, though extremely unlikely, mostly as an afterthought and as part of a desire to be thorough.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Kasimir

[Guest]

Oh, sorry. I thought that it was pretty obvious from the way you were evasive about your reasoning. My aplogies. It ain't really a problem though, right?

[Haelbarde he/him]

Bah. I had figured from your Wyrm vote was a Dula test, but I didn't work out the list. I was guessing that it could be maybe a list of who's most likely to have a Seon. I didn't want to comment on either though. 

Edited June 8, 2015 by Haelbarde