Nohadon altered the how Nahel bonds work by writing Way of Kings

[Cheese Ninja]

Dalinar's vision where he sees Nohadon establishes a couple major things.

“Our own natures destroy us,” the regal man said, voice soft, though his face was angry. “Alakavish was a Surgebinder. He should have known better. And yet, the Nahel bond gave him no more wisdom than a regular man. Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.”

“I agree,” Dalinar said.

The other man looked relieved. “I worried that you would find my claims too forward. Your own Surgebinders were… But, no, we should not look backward.”

What’s a Surgebinder? Dalinar wanted to scream the question out, but there was no way. Not without sounding completely out of place.

Perhaps…

“What do you think should be done with these Surgebinders?” Dalinar asked carefully.

“I don’t know if we can force them to do anything.” Their footsteps echoed in the empty room. Were there no guards, no attendants? “Their power… well, Alakavish proves the allure that Surgebinders have for the common people. If only there were a way to encourage them….” The man stopped, turning to Dalinar. “They need to be better, old friend. We all do. The responsibility of what we’ve been given—whether it be the crown or the Nahel bond—needs to make us better.”

1. The bond between a person and a spren that grants Surgebinding abilities is called a Nahel bond, and honorspren are a subset of spren capable of forming Nahel bonds. It seems likely to me that Syl is this type of spren.

2. This scene predates Nohadon's establishment of the Knights Radiant, in fact, it is a major influence in his decision to form the Knights Radiant. He observes that Surgebinders, while powerful, are difficult to control, and that makes them dangerous to the world as a whole.

And so how do you restrain and channel Surgebinders? By imposing certain rules on the spren. It sounds difficult, but it's actually really simple, if you look at the spren researcher Geranid's interlude. In the words of Terry Prachett's Discworld: "Because of quantum" Geranid takes simple measurements of flamespren (length, height, luminosity), once a spren's characteristic is recorded, it becomes fixed. Interestingly, this only remains in effect as long as the measurement isn't erased. Flamespren probably aren't capable of forming Nahel bonds, but what applies to them likely applies to some degree towards Bondspren.

Prior to Nohadon's Way of Kings, there were no Ideals, so then why should these Ideals written in his book be important to Surgebinders? They certainly are important, we can observe that just by seeing what happens when Kaladin says the Second Ideal of the Windrunners. “I will protect those who cannot protect themselves.” He gains an immediate boost in vitality, and observes that afterwords, Stormlight works better for him. This was Nohadon's goal in the first place, he encourages Surgebinders to be better people by forcing them to observe the Ideals of their Orders, which are tied to the Divine Attributes of each particular bond. (Protecting/Leading for Windrunners) This in turn allows them greater power, perhaps even greater power than before the Ideals.

The First Ideal is the same for all the Orders: "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination." The Second through Fifth Ideals were all unique for each Order.

“Much of The Way of Kings is organized like that passage I quoted you,” Dalinar said. “A metaphor from Nohadon’s life—a real event turned into an example. He calls them the forty parables.”

4 x 10 = 40. Supposition: Each of those parables contains/represents an Ideal.

When Geranid took a measurement, it only affected one flamespren, and random likely numbers couldn't be used, it had to be an actual measurement. This raises some questions. Are there, written somewhere on Roshar, observations that limit each individual Bondspren? Where would they be, and how many would there have to be for it to force all Surgebinders to behave in the manner of Knight Radiants? Or is the existence of a single copy of Way of Kings enough to limit all Nahel spren? The efficacy of broad, sweeping statements seems extremely unlikely from Geranid's interlude. Especially in a case such as this, where it isn't clear to Dalinar just from being read the book what the Ideals are or what they are doing.

Thoughts/Criticisms?

[Voidus]

The other problem is that they all have to have actually exhibited that behaviour in order for them to be measured, recorded and bound in the manner we saw. You couldn't just write down 'Sylphrena only ever Nahel-bonds with people exhibiting protective and leading qualities' unless she actually did that first.

[Cheese Ninja]

The other problem is that they all have to have actually exhibited that behaviour in order for them to be measured, recorded and bound in the manner we saw. You couldn't just write down 'Sylphrena only ever Nahel-bonds with people exhibiting protective and leading qualities' unless she actually did that first.

Yeah, I touched on that in the last paragraph. Those would be the "hidden texts" I only mentioned in the topic description, because I don't like adding more "hidden" things to a series that is already full of hidden Blades, Plates, masterminds, Heralds, and intentions.

It doesn't seem like the Knights Radiants could have been fully bound to the Ideals without a great deal of time, energy, and difficulty recording the actions of Bondspren. We're always just told that Nohadon founded the Orders, but if I'm correct, it probably took far longer than just his lifetime for them to be fully implemented. I think the Way of Kings might be a little bit like the plates that Shai uses in the Emperor's Soul to tie together a bunch of different Essence Marks into a single stamp. What we've seen in the series isn't the true form of it, just the popularized version for people to read at home. The full text is probably more of a library, and ties each known Nahel spren to their individual Order.

Edited February 3, 2013 by Cheese Ninja

[Dros]

I like that thought process, Ninja, and I think you're definitely on the right track with it, I think. But Voidus once again, is probably right. Spren are only bound by writing down their existing measurements, at least as far as we know. If it's ever found that writing something down in a certian way, creates a spren or actually changes its behavior...well, it's a whole new ballgame.

I think Noh. needed to find a way to make people better, many spren that were capable of a Nahel Bond, were not discerning, as he said, i.e. they didn't care how you acted, they would bond with you. The reason why, or if, they chose someone was not given. So how did someone attract one in the first place? Maybe it's possible to attract a spren (one that is capable of a Nahel Bond) and capture or "trap" the bond in some way? Maybe that's how writing the measurements work to gain a Nahel Bond? I imagine if you make a fire, you can make a fire spren. Why not doing something to attract a bondspren? The problem becomes, just about anyone could do this. Why wouldn't everyone? Genetics, or something like in Elantris?

So, I think you're right that Noh. noticed bondspren, that weren't honorspren, would bond with some unsavory characters andf thus dirtbags could become Surgebinders too, which really could turn out pretty bad. I guess the question that's remaining is: which way did he solve the problem when he created the KR? Change the people or change the bondspren? Or maybe a little of both? Brandon seems to be fond of showing the technological progression of societies through research, invention, etc. Perhaps the Way of Kings is just like you said...a work that took thousands of scholars, centuries to write.

[Meg]

This was Nohadon's goal in the first place, he encourages Surgebinders to be better people by forcing them to observe the Ideals of their Orders, which are tied to the Divine Attributes of each particular bond. (Protecting/Leading for Windrunners)

I have no evidence but my gut still says that it's not confirmed that Nohadon founded the Knights Radiant. As Ninja writes it has been his goal to get the Surgebinder on a path more honorable (than fighting or provoking needless wars). But whether he himself finished this goal we don't know, though I'm fairly sure he and his book had been the basis for the Ideals and therefore for the development of the Knights Radiant and their Orders.

Spren are only bound by writing down their existing measurements, at least as far as we know. If it's ever found that writing something down in a certian way, creates a spren or actually changes its behavior...well, it's a whole new ballgame.

As about the spren:

Geranid found a way to fix a spren in place.

But, is this a "bond"? When spren were fixed this way how should/could they be around, and how could a spren process then (like we saw with Syl)? Could a fixed spren be altered in a way that it behaves in another way then before? How would this work? And that, secondly, would need a second step of re-release the spren.

Therefor I think it will (would) be very interesting to see Geranid and Axies meet one another.

[dyring]

Nohadon observes a ***spren wich bonds with an honorable individual(By accident).

Nohadon writes down ***sprens bonds with honorable individuals, and adds the persons specifik stats to make one of the orders;).

Might work.

Like the theory. Not sure if I believe it, but its nice.

[hoser]

I like the theory.

I agree that WoK contains the ideals.

I think Honor created the ideals before Nohadon. Nohadon discovered them, then wrote them down.

I believe that Urithiru and the Radiants were established during Nohadon's lifetime, which was between desolations, so the heralds wouldn't have been around.

Once the Radiants were established, they were stronger than other surgebinders and could detect surgebinding (as Kaladin detected Szeth during the Highstorm). I believe that they would have stopped unethical surgebinding. So, before long, they would have been the only surgebinders.

[Cheese Ninja]

A few points:

@hoser Dalinar's vision of Nohadon is either just after, or near the end of a Desolation.

The Desolations are well named. I’ve heard initial counts. Eleven years of war, and nine out of ten people I once ruled are dead...The others want to blame Alakavish. And true, if he hadn’t brought us to war before the Desolation, we might not have been broken this badly. But Alakavish was a symptom of a greater disease. When the Heralds next return, what will they find? A people who have forgotten them yet again? A world torn by war and squabbling? If we continue as we have, then perhaps we deserve to lose.

Nohadon did meet the Heralds.

I don't think a spren can be made to go against its nature by using observations of it, but it can be limited. We don't know at this point how wide ranging a Nahel spren's qualities can be. The only ones we've seen are the symbolheads (truthspren?) and Syl. It's not even completely clear if Shallan bonded with one particular truthspren or if the truthspren have a group existence. The spren speaks in first person, but Shallan still thinks of them as a group.

Creatures, she said in her head. Can you hear me?

Yes, always, a whisper came in response. Though she’d hoped to hear it, she still jumped.

Can you return me to that place? she asked.

You need to tell me something true, it replied. The more true, the stronger our bond.

Jasnah is using a fake Soulcaster, Shallan thought. I’m sure that’s a truth.

That’s not enough, the voice whispered. I must know something true about you. Tell me. The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond. Tell me. Tell me. What are you?

“What am I?” Shallan whispered. “Truthfully?” It was a day for confrontation. She felt strangely strong, steady. Time to speak it. “I’m a murderer. I killed my father.”

Ah, the voice whispered. A powerful truth indeed….

Shallan is mostly likely in Shash's order. (Divine attributes: Creative/Honest) Her artwork (creation) attracted the spren, but in order to grow her Nahel bond she has to sacrifice truths about herself to her spren.

There are major notable differences between Nahel bondspren and typical spren. Nahel spren are capable of much more complicated thoughts, and if they think it is in their best interests, they could make observations of themselves. Once those were recorded, they could become bound by them.

Hmm, I just realized that Rock will probably be able to see the truthspren around Shallan and Elhokar... I wonder if interaction with spren was the ancestral responsibility of people capable of seeing spren. Who better to record the qualities of spren than someone who can see them even when they want to hide themselves?

@dyring I think that's an oversimplification. All of the types of Surgebinders existed from the beginning, each fitting into one of the categories from the Ars Arcanum and capable of accessing two of the Surges from the inside book cover. Nahel bonds may be built on positive qualities, but there was no requirement that they be used for good, until Nohadon's writers forced them to be used in a beneficial manner. To use Syl as an example, I think that there were a number of observations recorded about her and what type of spren she was, then that she would fall under the Windrunner order. It's possible that she bound herself to the Windrunner order as well, and that's why she insisted that Kaladin say the Words before he made his bridge leap. He had to graduate to the Second Ideal before she could strengthen his abilities any further.

[hoser]

A few points:

@hoser Dalinar's vision of Nohadon is either just after, or near the end of a Desolation.

Nohadon did meet the Heralds.

I'm sorry if I wrote unclearly. What I meant was that I believe neither the Radiants nor Urithiru existed at the time of Dalinar's vision, which I consider to be immediately after a Desolation. As we saw from the opening scene of the book, the Heralds would have left almost immediately. Nohadon is just starting to ask the questions that will lead to understanding the ideals, forming the Radiants and establishing Urithiru. The next Desolation and the heralds won't be around until long after Nohadon is dead (unless he becomes a Radiant and Radiant longevity is greatly increased). Thus I believe that the heralds weren't involved in setting up the Radiants or Urithiru, as Nohadon helped establish them between desolations.

[Cheese Ninja]

That sounds about right. I don't think Radiants get a lifespan bonus, but we can't be sure yet.

[TalenelStonesiniew]

It's an interesting theory, it would depend on if the spren have always existed. I've wondered if spren is more of a recent development as a result of honor dying. Theory that is commonly accepted is that the Highstorms is a result of Honor's death, and as a result, the Highstorms allow spent gems to be replenished with Stormlight. I think I lean towards spren being a natural phenomenon that has always existed on Roshar as a visual manifestation of the forces of nature which are at work on Roshar. However, Honor's death very well could have more of an affect on the world other than manifestations of Highstorms.

Another concern I have with the Way of Kings text defining the Nahal bond is that wouldn't that mean that the Radiants would be stronger than the Heralds? I'm more inclined to believe that the Way of Kings is a thesis that extrapolates on the Oathpact. Until that happened, people outside the Heralds themselves had no access to the Nahal bond. In other words, when Kaladin says the words, and felt a surge of power, he is repeating the words that the original Heralds said long ago when they chose to follow the Oathpact that Honor created. The Way of Kings is a text that makes the words of the Oathpact available to everyone and allowing the formation of the Radiants. The parables that are in the Way of Kings is a teaching instrument to a deeper understanding of what following the Oathpact truly means.

TL:DR version - Oathpact is the event that originally manipulated the spren. Surgebinding was/is possible without saying the words (as evidenced by Kaladin, he clearly had surgebinding powers before he said the words) but by saying the words, the bond between spren and the surgebinder grows in strength, but also mandates the surgebinder acts in an honorable way. The Way of Kings made the words available to everyone, which lead to the Radiants, which meant acts of unethical surgebinding would eventually die out due to being less powerful and being prosecuted by the Radiants.

[Meg]

It's an interesting theory, it would depend on if the spren have always existed. I've wondered if spren is more of a recent development as a result of honor dying.

They did, at least during Nohadon's lifetime:

Alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren.

Cheese Ninja quoted this in the OP too.

What respectively when do you mean with "a recent development?"

Theory that is commonly accepted is that the Highstorms is a result of Honor's death, and as a result, the Highstorms allow spent gems to be replenished with Stormlight.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, I misunderstand you or I missed something significant: Do you have a reference about "commonly accepted is that the highstorms are a result of Honor's death." I'd appreciate to get this reference or to be taught what I missed.

Another concern I have with the Way of Kings text defining the Nahal bond is that wouldn't that mean that the Radiants would be stronger than the Heralds?

Why should they be stronger? The Heralds are kind of divinities, surely stronger even than the KR with their Nahel bond.

And one more question: You say the Oathpact manipulated the spren. And you wondered if spren are a more recent event after Honor died. This implies that Honor was dead when the Oathpact was formed.

Please don't feel offended because of my comments and requests.

[TalenelStonesiniew]

I'm not offended. To be honest, my thoughts on this are primitive and the way I expressed it wasn't very clear. As far as the spren goes, that was more of a musing on my part, unrelated to the theory I espoused later in the paragraph. Personally, I think spren have been around as long as Roshar has been around, though the fact there is evidence as yet of spren in Shin lands (where the Highstorm is very weak) is interesting.

As far as the highstorms being a result of honor, I thought I had read that here, but I either must have imagined it or read it on a different forum. It somewhat makes sense to me, because looking at it from the viewpoint of honor - He knew or at least suspected that Odium would kill him. He needed a way to impart his power after his death. In the case of the heralds, what if they were each directly invested with a splinter of the shard of Honor (before his death) and had a direct link to stormlight that didn't require the use of gems infused during highstorms? The Honorblades themselves could be actually shards of the Shard of Honor that not only could be used as weapons but as the fuel required for the lashings and surgebinding of the Heralds. Anyway, so honor is dying, he needs a way to give his power after his death. He makes it so either he causes the Highstorms or he dies and shatters in the Sea of Origination and the highstorms serve as a delivery mechanism for stormlight (aka Honor's power), in this way he still can combat Odium's intent after his death.

Now, about the Nahel bond - First, you said that the Heralds are divinities of sorts. Do we have evidence of that? From what we do know, as far as I understand, the only difference between the Heralds and the Radiants is that the Heralds have to follow the Oathpact and return to a place of torment between desolations. Additionally, their shardblades are probably different than the Radiant's blades. Aside from that, they could be just as human as the Radiant's, only directly invested with Honor's power.

Now, about power levels. We see evidence that Kaladin's surgebinding ability grows stronger after he recites the second ideal - "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves." In correlation to that, Syl is the one that urged him to say the words, suggesting to me that Syl is able to provide Kaladin with stronger surgebinding power as a result of him doing so. This, along with the research of the old ardents, indicates to me that the symbiotic relationship between spren and surgebinder is strengthened or weakened depending on how you define not only the spren, but the surgebinder as well. There is a cognitive agreement between the two. We know the ideals comes from the Way of Kings. I merely postulate that the ideals from the Way of Kings is a reaffirmation of the ideals of the Oathpact. The Way of Kings provides a way for the formation of the Knights Radiant that follow the same ideals and provides the same strength of symbiosis between spren and surgerbinder as the Heralds had access to, with the benefit of restricting the Knights Radiant to following the ideals of the oathpact and preventing a misuse of surgebinding power. Therefore, the difference between Heralds and Knights Radiant could be as simple as the types of shardblades they had and where they got their stormlight power/fuel. (Heralds directly from honor, possibly from the Honorblades and the Radiants from highstorm infused gems)

Please feel free to criticize my admittedly very fledgling theory and and flaws and strengths it may have.

[Meg]

First I apologize for my late answer. And I'm adding my disclaimer: I'm not native English speaking so I might be hard to understand and surely I sometimes misunderstand others.

Personally, I think spren have been around as long as Roshar has been around, though the fact there is evidence as yet of spren in Shin lands (where the Highstorm is very weak) is interesting.

Here comes my first request: I've thought about this sentence now a few times but I don't get it. Is there a "no" missing (... the fact there is no evidence ...)?

The Honorblades themselves could be actually shards of the Shard of Honor that not only could be used as weapons but as the fuel required for the lashings and surgebinding of the Heralds. Anyway, so honor is dying, he needs a way to give his power after his death. He makes it so either he causes the Highstorms or he dies and shatters in the Sea of Origination and the highstorms serve as a delivery mechanism for stormlight (aka Honor's power), in this way he still can combat Odium's intent after his death.

"Shards of the Shard of Honor" would be Splinters if I'm not totally wrong. This is an interesting idea, indeed.

Now, about the Nahel bond - First, you said that the Heralds are divinities of sorts. Do we have evidence of that?

Ah, yes, I wrote "a kind of" but looking up "of sorts" I see this fits better. I got this from the Prelude.

"They see us as divinities,"

Kalak said to Jezrien. I didn't want to claim that the Heralds are divinities, but they are (seen as) divinities of sorts.

From what we do know, as far as I understand, the only difference between the Heralds and the Radiants is that the Heralds have to follow the Oathpact and return to a place of torment between desolations. Additionally, their shardblades are probably different than the Radiant's blades.

One big (large?) difference is, that the Heralds are immortal. But both, Heralds and KR are humans. When the Heralds die they were cast back into damnation. IIRC this would happen after they left the Oathpact, too. And I think it's what people on Roshar think.

... all save the Heralds themselves must dine with the Nightwatcher.

(TWoK, Chapter 58)

And the Honorblades are different from Shardblades (also from the Prelude):

These Blades were weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique.

Aside from that, they could be just as human as the Radiant's, only directly invested with Honor's power.

I don't have an idea :-).

Now, about power levels. ...

I've to admit that this passage is bit "too much". So for now only one -- presumably -- wrong note: About Kaladin and the Words I'm not that convinced than most or some others here. But I'm far too tired to be able to argue about that conclusively now.

Please feel free to correct or/and rebut me :-).