Nightblood + Skybreakers [Spoilers for WoR]

[MitchBade]

I apologize if these question have already been answered, just link me to them if they have .

 

So I have been reading some other threads and people keep talking about the Skybreakers and how Szeth is one of them and will get their surges eventually after bonding with Nightblood and saying the oaths and whatnot. I have a few points of confusion regarding this that I would love to have cleared up; first of all, Nightblood may count as a shardblade but it is not one from a spren related to honor, so how would Szeth be able to bond it and gain skybreaker surges? Does being on a different planet change the fundamental mechanics of Nightblood? Does it make him into a Skybreaker spren? Would a spren that creates the Skybreaker bond even choose Szeth whiel he is wielding Nightblood? Second, are the Skydreakers featured in WoR even the actual Skybreakers? None of them displayed the ability to use surges, I'm pretty sure Nale was using a regular dead-spren shardblade and not his Honorblade. I was under the impression that it was simply a group named after the Skybreakers who went around killing protoradiants to try and stop the desolations from returning. Lots of questions, but everyone seems to take these for granted and I'm sitting here like "whhaaaaa???"

[Moogle]

• Szeth is not a Skybreaker yet, but he may well be. He seems to fit the personality traits. If the highspren start bonding again, he'd be on my list of top candidates.
• Bonding with Nightblood might give him powers (WoB is that a Seon bond would give you powers on Roshar, and there are numerous WoBs suggesting Nightblood bonds its user). Bonding with Nightblood will almost definitely not give him the Skybreaker Surges.
• Being on a different planet does seem to affect things, based on the Seon thing (the WoB says that you only get the Seon bond benefits if you go to Roshar). This has links to Elantris, where promixity to Arelon determines the strength of AonDor.
• Skybreaker spren seem to be highspren, based on Syl's comment about them caring about what's legal.
• Nalan's Skybreakers are not "actual" Skybreakers, as in they are not Surgebinders as far as we know. The highspren don't seem to be bonding, though they might now that it is a Desolation.
• Nalan may very well have been using his Honorblade. We know Heralds cannot Surgebind without them, and Lift thinks he takes in Stormlight. WoB is that Brandon doesn't think his eyes changed color when he summoned his Shardblade (which may be a property of all Honorblades), so I lean towards him having a dead Shardblade in any case.
• Just because the Skybreakers aren't Surgebinders might not mean they're "fake", or whatever. Nalan might seem corrupted/wrong, but it's possible the Skybreakers were all like that. When the highspren start bonding (if ever), I'd not be surprised if they bond some of Nalan's Skybreakers. That is speculation of mine, however, so don't take it as fact.
  • The fact that Jasnah went to the highspren for information on Desolations suggests the Skybreakers did not take part in the Recreance, which is what I'd expect based on how Szeth did terrible things because he was following his personal code. I find this suggests the highspren are cooperating with Nalan, though I grant there's not a direct logical link to that. I'm not very confident in that assertion.

Here's a few WoBs:

Outis

If an Elantrian bonded to a Seon and traveled to Roshar, would that act as a Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

It would act very very similarly, yes. But it would be like… it wouldn't necesarily do the exact same things. It would be treated the exact same way, but wouldn't grant the same powers.

(source)

Another note here is that Nightblood can sense where Vasher is. This is because Nightblood has ingested and fed off Vasher’s Breaths in the past. When he does that, it connects him to someone. It’s also, by the way, one of the secrets as to why Vasher doesn’t get sick when holding Nightblood, even though he’s a good person. It’s not simply familiarity (though that is part of it). Nightblood has a built-in test. If he feeds off you and you survive, then you become somewhat immune to his powers.

(source)

Question

How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do?

Brandon Sanderson

It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds.

(source)

 

---

 

As a final note, be careful of assuming what you read here is fact. Some common theories are thrown around as fact when they are not. A flaw of communities like this is how quickly and easily a theory can grow to be "commonly accepted" while not being on that solid of ground.

 

I'm not above making mistakes myself on these things, so try not to take what I say as fact either. Always check the sources, or ask for them if it's at all important. Make sure the sources say what the person posting thinks they say.

[Blaze1616]

A flaw of communities like this is how quickly and easily a theory can grow to be "commonly accepted" while not being on that solid of ground.

 

Truer words have never been spoken.

[MitchBade]

@ Moogle

 

Thanks for the in depth response! I wasn't assuming they were correct, I was actually thinking they weren't, but then again we don't really know. If the Skybreakers didn't take part in the recreance they could have kept their bonds and the order may still exist with bonded knights. Also your ideas on the Skybreaker spren seem pretty legit, though I would have thought that honor spren would be highspren seeing as they are named after Honor haha.

 

On a side note, Nalan's killing off every protoradiant he finds is definitely going to come back and bite him in the chull if he is still sane enough to join the fight against Odium. He kind of ruined Dalinar's ability to collect all the protoradiants and rebuild the 10 Orders.

[Moogle]

My personal speculation is they are called 'highspren' because they look like comets (or starspren?). But I admit to being biased because I find the idea of a little comet zooming around Szeth's head, maybe bumping into things, to be the most adorable thing ever.

 

My other personal speculation is that the Skybreakers didn't take part in the Recreance, but the highspren agreed with Nalan that Surgebinders lead to bad things and so chose to not bond any new members, leading to the current lack.

 

I agree that Nalan killing off Surgebinders has lead to a suboptimal situation now. It's possible that if he hadn't hunted down Surgebinders that the Desolation might have come earlier, though? I'm not sure on whether or not Surgebinders actually cause Desolations, but Nalan doesn't seem insane and he'd be one of the few people who know (or be in a position to know). I don't think things are ruined, though. Jasnah mentions the spren like to bond en masse just before Desolations, so I think we'll be seeing a ton of new Radiants.

[Arook]

 

Jasnah mentions the spren like to bond en masse just before Desolations, so I think we'll be seeing a ton of new Radiants.

 

I thought that was the implication of Lopen gaining the ability to breath in storm light after the Dalinars talk with the storm father. Who Syl implies she was disobeying bonding to Kaladin in the first place.

[Moogle]

I thought that was the implication of Lopen gaining the ability to breath in storm light after the Dalinars talk with the storm father. Who Syl implies she was disobeying bonding to Kaladin in the first place.

 

Bridge 4 (including Lopen) are likely 'squires'. Windrunners are known to have an abnormally large amount, and it is suspicious that multiple Bridge 4 members started taking in Stormlight the very day Kaladin swore the Third Ideal. Lopen hasn't seen any special-seeming spren, so I doubt he's a Surgebinder.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

NIghtblood fed on breath, so this suggest he feeds on power/magic. I am betting stormlight will get drained by the blade, the thing is that shard blades are spren, fragments of powers. SO could the blade potentially feed on them.

 I am betting this herald want to use tha assain in white to take out some shard users, as nightblood would do great against plate and blade.

[Arook]

Bridge 4 (including Lopen) are likely 'squires'. Windrunners are known to have an abnormally large amount, and it is suspicious that multiple Bridge 4 members started taking in Stormlight the very day Kaladin swore the Third Ideal. Lopen hasn't seen any special-seeming spren, so I doubt he's a Surgebinder

Surgebinders I believe have to have a spren bound to them to pull in stormlight. Lopen tried every day to suck in stormlight and in fact was not near any other current surge binders so I find it unlikely that its some form of training to get a spren. Sqires would make more sense for what Kaladin is. Him not being a Radiant yet per Syl. As for when Lopen started it was after the stormfather bonded Dalinar having agreed to the need for the Knights Radiant again. hours after the bond formed knowing how Stormlight is supposed to be pulled in unlike all the others who had to learn by instinct. 

 

 

NIghtblood fed on breath, so this suggest he feeds on power/magic. I am betting stormlight will get drained by the blade, the thing is that shard blades are spren, fragments of powers. SO could the blade potentially feed on them.

 I am betting this herald want to use tha assain in white to take out some shard users, as nightblood would do great against plate and blade.

 

I don't think he could the investiture would mess with the Blades being drained but his bond should grant the power to draw in stormlight to feed him. Although who knows what a Shardblade and Nightblood interaction would be could blow the whole place up for all I know. i personally think that Nightblood could only be countered by Blade and Plate. That being because Nightblood can vaporize walls.

[.S.A.M.K.M]

shard plates can shatter, they need storm light to repair themselves. So it will break like ordinary plate, if drained. i wonder if night blood can unbind a linked blade. So it is potentially possible to take a blade with out killing them.

[natc]

I don't recall Nightblood ever draining investiture out of things other than the wielder. They never live long enough to be checked for breath removal, and Nightblood is really just a (somewhat broken) shardblade, so I'm skeptical.

I reckon he would have as much luck draining investiture out of a materialized blade as he would draining out of a block of atium. Or a human soul. There really loose investiture in those kinds of things to just drink up.

[Arook]

The storm light leaking out of the armor is similar to that of wounds being healed by a surge binder. The level of investiture in plate is why the blades don't cut them. Night blood would defiantly have at least the same level of damage to plate as a shard blade.

I think they talk about the bodies being drained of their breath and being gray with black around the wounds but I could be wrong.

[natc]

I'm sure dead people don't have breath anyway, being dead.

Gray seems common for shardblade shenanigans, and black might be along those lines . . .

Sheathed Nightblood is strange.

[TheBrian]

Hi Arook, as I understand it squires tap into the bond between a radiant and a spren.  So the relationship between Kaladin and Syl makes Kaladin a (proto)radiant and some members of Bridge 4 are able to piggyback off of that because of their relationship to Kaladin.  The consensus here seems to be that squires will be able to use stormlight to strengthen their bodies and heal, but not use any of the surges.

 

As much as I enjoy reading about The Lopen, I don't think he is on the path to becoming a radiant.  Otherwise, he would be having awesome conversations with a spren of his own.

[StormingTexan]

On this topic the coppermind says this below. I think this is kind of misleading and too definitive when it should be phrased more speculative. 

 

 

• Szeth has become a Skybreaker after losing his Honorblade

   

[Blaze1616]

On this topic the coppermind says this below. I think this is kind of misleading and too definitive when it should be phrased more speculative. 

 

But he is a Skybreaker. That's Nalan's group. He's just not the Radiant Skybreaker, necessarily.

[Arook]

Hi Arook, as I understand it squires tap into the bond between a radiant and a spren. So the relationship between Kaladin and Syl makes Kaladin a (proto)radiant and some members of Bridge 4 are able to piggyback off of that because of their relationship to Kaladin. The consensus here seems to be that squires will be able to use stormlight to strengthen their bodies and heal, but not use any of the surges.

As much as I enjoy reading about The Lopen, I don't think he is on the path to becoming a radiant. Otherwise, he would be having awesome conversations with a spren of his own.

Is there WoB on the squire thing?

[Blaze1616]

Is there WoB on the squire thing?

 

Unfortunately no. We know they exist via WoB, and we know Windrunners get an abnormal amount (and said abnormal amount may or may not be more powerful than the generic squire) via WoB, but they have yet to be fully explained (or even partially explained) by Brandon himself.

[StormingTexan]

But he is a Skybreaker. That's Nalan's group. He's just not the Radiant Skybreaker, necessarily.

 

 

Then maybe an asterisk needs to be added that it is Nalan's group of Skybreakers not necessarily the KR order of Skybreakers. Its on wiki page for the KR order of Skybreakers. If it was on Szeths page I guess it wouldn't be a big deal. I think it is a little misleading. 

[Arook]

Unfortunately no. We know they exist via WoB, and we know Windrunners get an abnormal amount (and said abnormal amount may or may not be more powerful than the generic squire) via WoB, but they have yet to be fully explained (or even partially explained) by Brandon himself.

 

See in most cases squires are on the path to be a knight not just testing to see if they can. Jasnah's description of the Knights Radient flood of new members  sounded like she was talking about large amounts of new bonds by the spren not just random people showing up saying hey I want to join. And i reread the part today where syl says that no honor spren had bonded but her because even she was disobeying the storm father. So it is very likely that with his consent Honor spren started bonding again.

 

A more important point is that Kaladin is half a continent away when Lopen breaths in storm light. I have a hard time believing that Kaladin can grant those kinds of powers from that far subconsciously. If he was with Kaladin the ya I could see that. 

[Master_Moridin]

See in most cases squires are on the path to be a knight not just testing to see if they can. Jasnah's description of the Knights Radient flood of new members  sounded like she was talking about large amounts of new bonds by the spren not just random people showing up saying hey I want to join. And i reread the part today where syl says that no honor spren had bonded but her because even she was disobeying the storm father. So it is very likely that with his consent Honor spren started bonding again.

 

A more important point is that Kaladin is half a continent away when Lopen breaths in storm light. I have a hard time believing that Kaladin can grant those kinds of powers from that far subconsciously. If he was with Kaladin the ya I could see that. 

 

 

I can't find anything that directly confirms or references it, but it seems to be general consensus that the Nahel bond is spiritual in nature due to connections being a thing of the Spiritual Realm, and according to WoB location doesn't really have much meaning in the Spiritual.

 

 

TREVORADE (REDDIT)

It has been explained that all things exists between three realms: Physical, Spiritual, and Cognitive.

I have surmised that different things "exist more" in a certain realm than another though all things have some presence in the three. Humans appear to "exist more" in the Physical realm. Spren appear to "exist more" in the Cognitive realm (Shadesmar in SA). Investiture appears to have various forms in the Physical Realm (e.g., alomantic metals, mist, stormlight).

Question 1: Does investiture have a consistent form (regardless of magic system and its Physical form) in one of the other realms?

Question 2: Vasher has shown us that he can substitue his need for Breath with another investiture (presumably Stormlight). To what extent is investiture interchangeable between magic systems?

Question 3: Is investiture finite? Hemalurgy and a Return's need to consume breath seems to show us that it can be destroyed. If it is finite, is the Cosmere's magic source doomed to the law of entropy?

BRANDON SANDERSON (REDDIT)

1. It's consistent in the Spiritual Realm. Location isn't particularly important there.

2. Very interchangeable, but not always simple to apply.

3. Investiture can not be created or destroyed. It follows it's own version of the laws of Thermodynamics.

(Relevant part bolded for convenience)

(source)

 

So at the least Kaladin being far away most likely wouldn't have any impact on his ability to grant Stormlight usage to his squires.

[Arook]

Umm, no, storm light and investiture are spiritual in nature not the bond. The bond is cognitive and defiantly has a distance limit. Syl can not travel far from Kaladin without the bond dissolving see when she went to get the leaf. Still that is something he would need to think of doing not something he would do by instinct. I Still don't see why they would have that power I'm positive we would have heard of it in legend. Even if knowledge of it was lost what about all those other times people are working with the Radiants and not having power I mean if its not weakening you that would be something to give out freely to fight the void bringers. Other wise the Radiants are totally stupid and deserve the crap they get.

[Master_Moridin]

According to WoB you can steal a Shardblade using Hemalurgy (or at least that it's theoretically possible), which works by ripping off bits of spiritweb, so it at the very least heavily insinuates the bond is spiritual in nature.

 

 

 

KURKISTAN

Can Hemalurgy be used to steal Shardblades directly, transferring ownership from the victim to the spike's recipient without a need for the recipient to physically take the Shardblade first?

BRANDON SANDERSON

A novel use of Hemalurgy which is not outside the sphere of its powers.

(source)

 

On the bonds having distance limits it could just be different types of spiritual connections react differently based on distance.

 

What I currently hypothesize at least.

 

I really don't have much else to say on the subject (mainly cause I can't think of much else at the moment).

[Arook]

Yes it could steal a blade but a spirit web is not the same as investiture nor is a surge binder bond and the shard blade bond the same. to form that bond you need a gem of storm light to bond a bladei would imagine a spike could steal the connection to the blade not blade it's self.

[bedmonds]

You are blatantly ignoring the fact that it took Kaladin around 10 months to form a bond song enough with Syl to draw in Stormlight. This is inherent in spren transitioning from the cognitive realm to the physical realm, it takes time for them to regain their memories and form the bond with their radiant. Before this The Lopen had been trying to suck in stormlight everyday if he was forming a bond with a spren it would have been mentioned (not to mention that rock would have noticed his spren because it would have had to start when he first joined up).

 

So we've established it has to take time because of the inherent nature and not do to the disobedience and since we have no evidence of him having a spren the only alternative is that he is a Squire of which as mentioned in the books wind runners normally have a great number.

 

There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.

-From Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3

 

Furthermore the Nahel bond binds a spren to a person by entwining itself in their spiritweb. Since the spiritweb is the spiritual aspect of person the bond itself is of the spiritual realm

 

A Surgebinder's Nahel bond with a spren may work in a similar way, a spren becoming spiritually attached to a certain point on a person's Spiritweb, sort of like a non-invasive form of Hemalurgy.

-from the coppermind

Edited May 1, 2015 by bedmonds