Chronology

[mbg]

Did anyone figured if or how the Alethi dates in the Epigraphs (i.e. year 1171-1173) correlate to the events taking place in the book? Also any idea from what event they started their count?

[Cayden]

Probably from After the Hiorocracy fell, because thats when the current vorinism begins as far as i know.

[mbg]

That what I thought, untill I noticed this:

Delenar: "...sounded a great deal like what the Hierocracy had said when it had tried to conquer the world five centuries before."

[Cheese Ninja]

That what I thought, untill I noticed this:

Delenar: "...sounded a great deal like what the Hierocracy had said when it had tried to conquer the world five centuries before."

Maybe they started number the years after the so-called "Last Desolation"?

Not counting the outlying scenes (prologues, flashbacks etc.) I'd say that only 2 or so months pass during the course of the book. Dalinar only goes through 4 visions that we actually see (there were more that we didn't see, but not between the ones we do see), which happen every Highstorm, which happen roughly once a week (5 days, 10 weeks to a month). There is a date given for the map Navani drew of the Tower battle, which is "circa 1173". The dates of the epigraphs cover a period a little over two years. (1138 days total, from the 271st day of 1171 to the 409th day of 1173, there are 500 days to a year) I don't think we know an exact date for when anything happens, but we could pretend that the one epigraph out of chronological order is happening on the same day as the events it describes.

“Above the final void I hang, friends behind, friends before. The feast I must drink clings to their faces, and the words I must speak spark in my mind. The old oaths will be spoken anew.”—Dated Betabanan, 1173, 45 seconds pre-death. Subject: a lighteyed child of five years. Diction improved remarkably when giving sample.(307) [7-2-2]

That would make it more or less the last day of the book from Kaladin's and Dalinar's perspectives.

[mbg]

There is a date given for the map Navani drew of the Tower battle, which is "circa 1173".

For sometime now, I was looking something that link those dates with the events and the date and this just what I was looking for

Maybe they started number the years after the so-called "Last Desolation"?

With the above in mind, it has to be before ~700 years before the Hierocracy and 3300 after the "Last" Desolation. Only that comes to mind is 'The Day of Recreance'.

The dates of the epigraphs cover a period a little over two years. (1138 days total, from the 271st day of 1171 to the 409th day of 1173, there are 500 days to a year) I don't think we know an exact date for when anything happens, but we could pretend that the one epigraph out of chronological order is happening on the same day as the events it describes.

Its possible.

[lDanielHolm]

The Last Desolation took place 4500 years ago--we see the aftermath in the prologue. One of Kabsal's talks with Shallan places the Last Desolation "thousands and thousands of years ago".

It is more likely that it is after the Day of Recreance.

[Cheese Ninja]

The Last Desolation took place 4500 years ago--we see the aftermath in the prologue. One of Kabsal's talks with Shallan places the Last Desolation "thousands and thousands of years ago".

It is more likely that it is after the Day of Recreance.

Can't believe that I forgot that. Not entirely sure what I was thinking there. The Day of Recreance does seem pretty likely.

[dionysus]

As far as I can tell new years are marked by The Weeping. Do we know if this is a fixed period of time between Weepings?

"Five years ago Kaladin hated the Weeping. It marked the end of an old year and the coming of a new one..."

Edited November 15, 2012 by dionysus

[Lightflame]

As far as I can tell new years are marked by The Weeping. Do we know if this is a fixed period of time between Weepings?

"Five years ago Kaladin hated the Weeping. It marked the end of an old year and the coming of a new one..."

Which leads me to wonder how the Shin choose year lengths.

[Cheese Ninja]

Why do you think the Shin choose year lengths?

It's always been stated that years are 500 days long. The Weeping happens at the same time every year, seemingly from the end of Ishi to the beginning of Jes. It's a period of 2-4? weeks with a lot of light rain and one big highstorm in the middle. On Jeseses, I suppose?

[Windrunner]

I think Lightflame is referring to how the Shin calendar works when they likely don't experience weepings there because of the shelter provided by the Misted Mountains. A Shin year probably works just like ours do. Year lengths are probably one full seasonal cycle, although which day they decide is the "beginning" is probably just a cultural thing.

Also, in the book, it's said that the first day after the Weepings end, and presumably the first day of the year is called Lightday. Not sure if that takes the place of Jeseses though.

[CabbageHead]

I think Lightflame is referring to how the Shin calendar works when they likely don't experience weepings there because of the shelter provided by the Misted Mountains.

We know the Shin don't get Highstorms because of the mountains. However, I'd imagine that the seasons there are similar to everywhere else. The mountains blocking the storms doesn't make it stop being winter, etc.

[Windrunner]

I said that exact thing in the second half of that same paragraph...

I think Lightflame is referring to how the Shin calendar works when they likely don't experience weepings there because of the shelter provided by the Misted Mountains. A Shin year probably works just like ours do. Year lengths are probably one full seasonal cycle, although which day they decide is the "beginning" is probably just a cultural thing.

[CabbageHead]

I said that exact thing in the second half of that same paragraph...

So you did, sorry. It's late at night, my brain is slowing down.

[mbg]

There is a date given for the map Navani drew of the Tower battle, which is "circa 1173".

This is the missing link I was looking for. With that in mind, the event dated at 0, should be between the Hiorocracy(500 years ago) and "Last" desolation(4500 years ago). From what we know 'Day of Recreance' is the only major event in that period of time.

ETA: additionally in one of the sources it said 2 years before the true desolation.

The dates of the epigraphs cover a period a little over two years. (1138 days total, from the 271st day of 1171 to the 409th day of 1173, there are 500 days to a year) I don't think we know an exact date for when anything happens, but we could pretend that the one epigraph out of chronological order is happening on the same day as the events it describes.

It is possible and it would be nice to figure it out, but it wouldn't offer us much more detail, considering the text(Brandon don't go overboard with this like George Martin)

Edited November 19, 2012 by mbg

[dionysus]

I think Lightflame is referring to how the Shin calendar works when they likely don't experience weepings there because of the shelter provided by the Misted Mountains. A Shin year probably works just like ours do. Year lengths are probably one full seasonal cycle, although which day they decide is the "beginning" is probably just a cultural thing.

Also, in the book, it's said that the first day after the Weepings end, and presumably the first day of the year is called Lightday. Not sure if that takes the place of Jeseses though.

Except seasons don't work the same on Roshar.

"His forehead dripped with sweat from the Eastern summer humidity, and it stung as it seeped into his wound. Hopefully, they'd have some weeks of spring rain soon. Weather and seasons were unpredictable. You never knew how long they would go on, though typically each would last a few weeks."

"Fortunately, seasons generally lasted only a few weeks. Unpredictability. That was the way of the world."

So spring can immediately follow summer and a season is only a few weeks, so maybe 20-40 days with no way to know the exact length. From this I conclude that where there are highstorms it is impossible to build a calendar off of seasons.

Now the Shin are interesting, because they have earth-like plant life. I would guess they have to have normal seasons to have such plant life, or at least normal in that spring -> summer-> fall-> winter. As a gardener I can tell you out of season weather is death to food crops, so they must not have the crazy temperature swings implied in the rest of Roshar.

My point is that without the weeping and without the same seasonal craziness that the rest of Highstorm Roshar has, the Shin calendar could be completely different.

[Windrunner]

Well the rest of Roshar has crazy seasons, but it just wouldn't work on Shinovar. What do all the deciduous trees do, lose their leaves every time it's winter for a coupe of weeks? (Most all the leaves on the trees up here were gone in days) Lets look at strawberries; it takes about 14 weeks for them to grow from seed (8 from an already established plant). If I'm remembering right, TWoK mentioned how 6 weeks of one season was a long time. Those strawberries wouldn't take well to getting frozen. And many crops take even longer then that to grow. I just don't think there's anyway for the crazy seasons to be in force in Shinovar if they're growing Earth-like food.

[dionysus]

Sounds like we agree with each other Windrunner. I was just pointing out that a seasonal based calendar for the Shin wouldn't have the same seasons as the rest of Roshar. Also, this is unlikely but it is possible that the Weeping does not correlate to 1 revolution of Roshar around the sun.

Roshar with the exception of Shinovar is really very alien to Earth. So we should be very careful when we apply Earth-based truths to Roshar, especially when it comes to climate, nature, etc. I am not saying we can't use our Earth knowledge to speculate, just that we should be aware of our premise and that it could prove to be untrue. In particular climate does not seem to be based on natural phenomenon at all, but instead based upon the various properties of highstorms. The lifecycle and food chain is also very different. For example, decay plays no role as there is no soil.

[mbg]

As far as I can tell new years are marked by The Weeping. Do we know if this is a fixed period of time between Weepings?

"Five years ago Kaladin hated the Weeping. It marked the end of an old year and the coming of a new one..."

There is a reference to his sixteen weeping day as well. Also fixed or no, this is the only baseline we have for reference, regardless two years ago are still two years ago.

There is a very nice theory about the calendar and 500 day year, but I don't think this was confirmed by Brandon.

Edited November 19, 2012 by mbg

[PeterAhlstrom]

You're assuming Shinovar has seasons.

[CabbageHead]

You're assuming Shinovar has seasons.

I think we all were assuming that, yes. A country with no major variations in weather would be something almost completely outside our experience. But now that you say that, climate patterns on on Roshar are completely erratic, unlike earth, where they are firmly tied to the seasonal variations of exposure to the sun due to axial tilt.... Roshar could have a tilt small enough for a completely stable natural climate, leading other factors to provide the variations.

[11thorderknight]

The continent could also be at Roshar's equator, which would mean no seasonal variation once you remove the influence of highstorms.

On a more interesting note - what does the 500+ day year imply for human age? We're told at one point that Shallan is 18 and Jasnah is 34, and their physical descriptions match those ages in Earth-years....but on Roshar, that would make Shallan 25 in earth years, and Jasnah 46. The latter is completely at odds with how she's described. Do Rosharans live longer to match their longer year? Are their days shorter? Are the given ages an out-of-world convention used in description but not accurate in-world?

[RenegadeShroom]

The continent could also be at Roshar's equator, which would mean no seasonal variation once you remove the influence of highstorms.

On a more interesting note - what does the 500+ day year imply for human age? We're told at one point that Shallan is 18 and Jasnah is 34, and their physical descriptions match those ages in Earth-years....but on Roshar, that would make Shallan 25 in earth years, and Jasnah 46. The latter is completely at odds with how she's described. Do Rosharans live longer to match their longer year? Are their days shorter? Are the given ages an out-of-world convention used in description but not accurate in-world?

If I remember correctly, Brandon said somewhere that one Rosharan year is roughly equivalent to 1.1 Earth years, which would make Shallan about 19 and Jasnah around 37. Would that be right? I'm not a big math person, but I just guessed that you multiply a person's given age in the book by 1.1.

Anywho, I was thinking that Roshar's seasons couldn't be based on the planet's axial tilt or whatever if Shinovar is stable; otherwise Shinovar somehow defies those planetary factors and remains remarkably stable, at least, I think so. So that leaves the question, what is the cause of Roshar's seasons? Specifically, since I'm guessing it's the highstorms, what do they change that causes seasonal change?

Edited November 20, 2012 by InsurrectionistFungus

[lDanielHolm]

:o/>

I think we all were assuming that, yes. A country with no major variations in weather would be something almost completely outside our experience. But now that you say that, climate patterns on on Roshar are completely erratic, unlike earth, where they are firmly tied to the seasonal variations of exposure to the sun due to axial tilt.... Roshar could have a tilt small enough for a completely stable natural climate, leading other factors to provide the variations.

Countries located near the equator have no major variations in weather; temperature is generally high all year round. Shin could benefit from the same with the rest of Roshar suffering the effects of the highstorms.

[name_here]

Highstorms throw such a wrench into weather patterns and the jet stream that it's surprising they have identifiable seasons period.