Cosmere Afterlife

[StormAtlas]

Hey guys, I'm knew here so I apologies if this has already been discussed or that its already been confirmed/dispelled but I got to thinking the other day whether there might an afterlife transcends all of the Cosmere?

Warbreaker talks a little about or rather implies that an afterlife does exist with a chance of reincarnation.

The Stormlight Archives describes in great details the Vorin religion and the Tranquiline Halls which seem to me very similar to the Norse religion and Valhalla.

And the Misborn series describes a great deal of religions that where once practiced.

So my question is, do you guys think that there is an afterlife that reconnects all the different worlds of the Cosmere?

or perhaps do you think that the religions that people have created on the various worlds are simply a result of their interactions with the different shards and that there is no real afterlife in the Cosmere?

[Lightflame he/him]

In Hero of Ages, Kelsier's spirit is able to talk to Spook, and Sazed talks to the spirits of Vin and Elend. There has to be an afterlife, and it's probably Kelsierland.

[Windrunner he/him]

There is confirmed to be an afterlife in the cosmere

DALENTHAS (15 OCTOBER 2008)

Did Sazed leave information about how his new religion should be run for Spook and the others to find? His note to Spook implies that there is an afterlife...

BRANDON SANDERSON (16 OCTOBER 2008)

Sazed didn't immediately leave this, as he was too focused on other things. The next period of time will be difficult for Sazed, as he essentially sees himself as an avatar of deity—the force of Preservation—and not God with an upper case letter. He's still not sure what Truth is 100%. And there is an afterlife, but it's probably not what you're thinking. In other words, Sazed has not touched Heaven or Hell, and actually doesn't yet know what the final beyond contains. He has, however, run into some people who have been sticking around something of a middle place. It's related to the larger cosmology, and I'm afraid that I'll need to RAFO anything further.

Source

My personal theory is that people go onto this afterlife because they've lost their Physical aspect, and cannot exist for long in a universe where it seems that everything has all three aspects.

[Lady_Yasha she/her]

^ I know you guys have talked about aspects in excruciating detail before in the chat, so I'm avoiding any of that lest we start arguing about talking trees.

I also wanted to point out that it's confirmed in Hero of Ages that an afterlife exists in the cosmere and that Shards are unable to affect them.

At least, Sazed wasn't able to return Elend and Vin to their bodies.

Which kind of makes me think Adonalsium was a construct either born of necessity or created by something else to manage life in the cosmere and the physical and spiritual aspects.

[Straff Venture he/him]

My assumption was that they 'fell' through the realms, and after dying their consciousness only existed in the spiritual realm without any physical aspect or influence on the physical realm.

[Yados]

Sounds like if you were fighting a Shard, the afterlife would be an ideal place to store your army.

[StormAtlas]

There is confirmed to be an afterlife in the cosmere

My personal theory is that people go onto this afterlife because they've lost their Physical aspect, and cannot exist for long in a universe where it seems that everything has all three aspects.

Ah, that quote makes it sound like Brandon is talking about a limbo

and I must admit that I have yet to read the last novel of the mistborn series otherwise I guess I would have known that lol.

Do you guys think that the 10 Heralds hid in Limbo during the inbetween time of the conflicts?

[spacemonkey he/him]

I recall Brandon saying something about how souls can stick around in the Spiritual Realm for a while after they die, which was the case with Kelsier.

Also, the Returned clearly prove that it is possible to revive the dead, at least for Endowment. That happens shortly after death though, so presumably they're still in the Spiritual Realm at that point and haven't yet moved on to the afterlife.

[Aethling he/him]

Doesn't Sazed say that Vin and Elend are happy wherever they are and at peace? That doesn't sound too much like a limbo.

Endowment does interfere with the the afterlife. He gives the people a chance to return to do a task. Sazed may be able to do the same thing eventually. Endowment does have more practice time with his powers.

I am not sure I would include the tranquiline halls legend as an afterlife, at least originally. To me it reads much more like a drive to retake lands that they were forced from. This drive might take on a religious feel over time, particularly several thousand years, but I have always thought of it as more and equivalent of Troy. History has proven that Troy actually existed, just not in they way it was made out to be. You might also think of it as Eden, except Eden has a roadmap for its location that is fairly well described. Don't forget that Sanderson was a big fan of the WoT when he was growing up. What does someone preparing to retake lands they think of as stolen from them sound like?

[lDanielHolm he/him]

Not everyone goes through to the afterlife. Kelsier, for instance, hung around. Likely, the people who become Returned are similar -- they hesitate before going through, and Endowment can step in to give them visions of the future, then offers them the chance to go back.

[happyman he/him]

I would say that it is clear that there is some kind of afterlife, but there are intermediate states as well. It seems extremely likely that Kelsier, the various Returned, and perhaps others (like the Herald's) never go "all the way," but only come back from some kind of intermediate state.

I'm also interested with the possibility that it's not Endowment that gives the dead the ability to see the future. After all, if the death quotes are any indication, it's possible that the primary qualification is to be in (or perhaps near) this intermediate state. Certainly that's what the followers of the Iridescent Tones believe. This would also explain why Kelsier stuck around to meddle. If it is true, he would want to interfere in order to stop his revolution from having all the nasty side effects it may have ended up with otherwise.

Edited November 5, 2012 by happyman

[Windrunner he/him]

Well, the "intermediate" state you're referencing seems to be the Cognitive Realm. Brandon's stated that's where Kelsier was waiting for Preservation's power, and at least one person with the death visions described Shadesmar.

[Yados]

Well, the "intermediate" state you're referencing seems to be the Cognitive Realm. Brandon's stated that's where Kelsier was waiting for Preservation's power, and at least one person with the death visions described Shadesmar.

That's weird. Maybe it was an unintended side effect of Survivorism-- that Kelsier still existed as a concept in the minds of others let his soul hang on in the cognitive realm?

[Aethling he/him]

Sanderson said Kelsier was just a profound meddler. Vin and Elend probably could have hung around, but they wanted a chance to be together in peace.

[Windrunner he/him]

I've had similar thoughts Yados, we were discussing that in my Shardic Constructs topic, if you want to look at what everyone had to say and add your opinion. Aethling, you can't just decide to stick around, there's specific ways that you need to be tied to the Physical Realm to stick around after death.

[Yados]

I've had similar thoughts Yados, we were discussing that in my Shardic Constructs topic, if you want to look at what everyone had to say and add your opinion. Aethling, you can't just decide to stick around, there's specific ways that you need to be tied to the Physical Realm to stick around after death.

Well, if Kelsier's Survivorism gambit was enough to let his spirit stick around, would the Steel Ministry, a much more prevalent religion, be enough to let Rashek stick around? Unknown specifics of being a splinter aside, he would have had similar means and purpose as Kelsier for remaining as a ghost.

[Vortaan he/him]

Well, if Kelsier's Survivorism gambit was enough to let his spirit stick around, would the Steel Ministry, a much more prevalent religion, be enough to let Rashek stick around? Unknown specifics of being a splinter aside, he would have had similar means and purpose as Kelsier for remaining as a ghost.

You would think he would have hopped onto Preservation's power then, since he was more familiar with it than Kelsier, knew about Ruin, and had a thousand year plan to keep Ruin trapped.

[StormAtlas]

Maybe it has to do in the way a person dies? Like giving up their own lives for something else ( Im thinking Kelsier, Vin, Warbreaker series etc etc)

Or maybe its how good/bad the person was?

[Nepene he/him]

I suspect that dead souls hang around in the cognitive realm for a bit, but they have an option to carry onto a final afterlife from which they cannot return. This afterlife is probably similar to the Mormon afterlife. A generally good place to be, where you don't have to be a believer to get in.

Edit. Poorly received post.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Nepene

[happyman he/him]

If Brandon can't come up with his own type of afterlife for his own universe, he is nowhere near being the author I know him to be.

[StormAtlas]

I was just thinking... what do you guys think happens to a shard holder after they die? Would they still go to the same place as everyone else do you think?

and if so, do you think the Lord ruler and Kelsier duke it out every once and awhile in the afterlife?

[Windrunner he/him]

I think they probably go to the same place as everyone else does, after all that's what happens to Vin.

Kel and TLR probably won't be doing any fighting, considering Kel didn't go on to the afterlife, and is just chilling in Shadesmar for now. Perhaps he's aboard Hoid's zeppelin

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

So, is anybody else uncertain what happened to the Emperor's soul from the Emperor's Soul?

I'm assuming that the Spiritual aspect is what goes on to the afterlife, unless it's some odd mix of the Spiritual and Cognitive aspects. I assume Brandon's got some established rules for the afterlife, but we haven't gotten them in great detail yet. It can't be as ridiculous as the piecemeal ideas that people make up about an afterlife in this world. (I don't believe in that sort of crazy stuff.)

Did the Emperor go on to the afterlife after the assassination, since it made him brain dead? Or was he still bound to his body as long as it was still alive? (The Physical Aspect) If he did go on to the afterlife, then what about the soul stamped personality (The Forged Soul)? Will it go on to the afterlife as well? There were a few lines in the book that made me think that the repeated application of the soul stamp might generate a being that counted enough to earn an afterlife.

Copy an image over and over on a stack of paper, Shai thought, and eventually the lower sheets will bear the same image, pressed down. Deep within.

If any of you have read "Thief of Time" by Terry Pratchett, there's a character who doesn't have a soul to start with, but at the end when they die they have gained one.

[Aethling he/him]

That is what she thought could happen, but even she was only speculating on that. The need to be redone periodically seems like the original soul eventually reasserts itself. But that throws into doubt the stamps she made for herself as her escape.

[Cheese Ninja he/him]

I think the need to be redone on a daily basis is just a necessary requirement of Soulstamping any living being. Her own stamps would have required that as well. (Even the Escapist one, it required her to Soulstamp herself on a daily basis.) I don't think there's any "original soul" left to reassert itself. If there was, it should have been uncovered merely by fixing the body. Which may have been an initial possibility, but maybe Ashravan's soul made a conscious decision to pass on to the Afterlife? The Cosmere probably has some sort of soul/brain connection like some old real world philosophers believed in.

Although I do wonder whether it's alright for the Soulstamp to lapse on the Emperor, or if he would reset to zero. (The First Stamping after the accident.) She said that she inserted the ability for growth into the Soulstamp, but she didn't go into details on how it worked.

“It won’t be him,” Shai said. “Even if I succeed, it won’t truly be him. You realize this, of course.”

He nodded.

“But then . . . sometimes a clever Forgery is as good as the real thing,”

It was uncanny. This was Ashravan; a Forgery so keen, so perfect, that Gaotona would never have guessed the truth if he hadn’t already known. He wanted to believe that the emperor’s soul had still been there, in his body, and that the seal had simply . . . uncovered it.

That would be a convenient lie to tell himself. Perhaps Gaotona would start believing it eventually. Unfortunately, he had seen the emperor’s eyes before, and he knew . . . he knew what Shai had done.

I feel like this might make a good question for Brandon, because it's impossible for us to be sure what has happened simply from information given in the book. I want to believe that the Forged Soul gets an afterlife as well.