On the Morality of Investiture

[Kairos he/him]

Who makes moral judgements in the Cosmere? We know of one entity that decisively deals with evil. Nightblood. His command to Destroy Evil, makes a judgement whenever used. What's the theory here, though? Well, we know Sanderson has in-world different languages, as proven by WoR. The one example we have is that Nalthean and Rosharan are different. Why is that important? Because, I postulate that Nightblood 's Command, rendered in Nalthean, could also be translated as Consume Evil. Obviously, that's pure speculation, but it has precedent. In English, consume and destroy could be used as poetic synonyms. We know that words often have multiple interpretations, and this could be a legitimate possibility. This leads to some interesting implications, when combined with what Nightblood does. He consumes Investiture. This leads to my conclusion that Adonaisium was shattered because it was evil. Nightblood consumes Investiture because it is evil. Thoughts?

[natc]

Nightblood's only infamous characteristic is not knowing what evil is.

[Comatose he/him]

The diversity of the shard's intents, to me, seems to indicate that they are morally neutral when combined, but that could be an unsubstantiated assumption on my part. 

 

Like natc said though, the question isn't really what IS evil, but what Nightblood perceives to be evil. 

 

I like the linguistic analysis, and the play on the words "consume" and "destroy".  Both words, you will notice, fit with Ruin's MO, and he is essentially the shard most closely associated with destruction. 

 

Perhaps the evil (or what Nightblood sees as evil) is not investiture itself, but how it is being used or what form it takes?  Maybe the brokenness of Adonalsium is seen as evil (at least by Nightblood), rather than Adonalsium itself. 

 

Very interesting way of thinking of things. 

[Curiosity he/him]

I like the thinking that went into this. However, Nightblood may also have been given the command "Chop wood" and, as a Type IV BioChromatic entity (sentient, non-living host) he would still consume Investiture in order to chop wood. I personally think this is because sentient BioChromatic entities consume Investiture in order to survive (i.e., the Returned). 

[Kairos he/him]

I don't think it is only what Nightblood perceives to be evil, though. You'll note that someone good will feel sick around Nightblood. These aren't people Nightblood perceives to be good, they are good.  In addition to that, Nightblood doesn't just consume evil Investiture, or Investiture used for that wrong purpose. He consumes any Investiture. 

 

Interesting point, Comatose. I think they also fit Odium, but as little as we know of Odium, that's really speculation. Does fit Ruin nicely, though. I see what you mean about the brokenness of Adonalsium. That could be the case, but it seems even less of a possibility, especially since that still would mean it's what Nighblood perceives. I wonder if he's Cosmere-aware. 

 

In response to the issue that it's due to his nature as a Type IV BioChromatic Entity, I would point to Shardblades. Admittedly, they are quite different, but Sanderson has said that Nightblood is like a twisted Shardblade. They're the same thing, with different commands. 

[natc]

I don't think it is only what Nightblood perceives to be evil, though. You'll note that someone good will feel sick around Nightblood. These aren't people Nightblood perceives to be good, they are good. In addition to that, Nightblood doesn't just consume evil Investiture, or Investiture used for that wrong purpose. He consumes any Investiture.

Interesting point, Comatose. I think they also fit Odium, but as little as we know of Odium, that's really speculation. Does fit Ruin nicely, though. I see what you mean about the brokenness of Adonalsium. That could be the case, but it seems even less of a possibility, especially since that still would mean it's what Nighblood perceives. I wonder if he's Cosmere-aware.

In response to the issue that it's due to his nature as a Type IV BioChromatic Entity, I would point to Shardblades. Admittedly, they are quite different, but Sanderson has said that Nightblood is like a twisted Shardblade. They're the same thing, with different commands.

But how do you determine if those people are good? It's entirely subjective. Nightblood seems to have an arbitrarily broad definition of evil due to being an utter imbecile regarding does things, so anyone he doesn't designate as evil will be good to him.

And considering how easy it is to get marked as evil by him (all you really have to do is consider the thought of picking him up really) you'd have to be pretty damnation virtuous to fall into the not-DESTROY category.

[Kairos he/him]

The problem is that Sanderson has yet to show us how evil is determined. Like I said, though, people who are good have an aversion to Nightblood. This points to a more universal determination of evil, outside of Nightblood's perception. There's a difference between what Nightblood may think is evil, and what is evil. 

 

True, but as I said, there is an outside determination. And besides, when he does that, he's not destroying evil. 

[Caladcholg he/him]

Nightblood's determination of evil is interesting in the fact that he doesnt seem to consider Szeth or Naln as evil.  And by interesting, I mean they are both rather homicidal.

[Moogle]

Nightblood does not work off of some sort of "objective morality" detection.
 

But we’re not there quite yet. Before that we have the first real interaction between Vivenna and Vasher. He gives her what he likes to think of as the Nightblood test. One nice thing about having a sword that “cannot tempt the hearts of those who are pure” is that when someone like Vivenna touches it, she gets sick. I didn’t want Nightblood to come across as a “one ring” knockoff. He doesn’t turn people’s hearts or corrupt them. However, in order to be able to do his job and fulfill his Command, he needs the ability to determine who is good and who is evil.

 

This, of course, isn’t an easy thing to determine. In fact, I don’t think it’s a black or white issue for most people. When Nightblood was created, the Breaths infused in him did their best to interpret their Command. What they decided was evil was someone who would try to take the sword and use it for evil purposes, selling it, manipulating and extorting others, that sort of thing. Someone who wouldn’t want the sword for those reasons was determined to be good. If they touch the weapon, they feel sick. If others touch the weapon, their desire to kill and destroy with it is enhanced greatly.

 

Nightblood himself, unfortunately, doesn’t quite understand what good and evil are. (This is mentioned later in the text.) However, he knows that his master can determine who is good and who is evil—using the sword’s power to make people sick, or through other means. So, he pretty much just lets whoever is holding him decide what is evil. And if the one holding the sword determines—deep within their heart—that they are evil themselves, then they will end up killing themselves with the sword.

[natc]

Yeah, not sure what part of "Nightblood doesn't know what evil is" people didn't understand . . .

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

 

 

In response to the issue that it's due to his nature as a Type IV BioChromatic Entity, I would point to Shardblades. Admittedly, they are quite different, but Sanderson has said that Nightblood is like a twisted Shardblade. They're the same thing, with different commands. 

 

Counter point. Honorblades. Honorblades consume Investiture at around the same rate as Nightblood.

[Unhinged he/him]

Nightblood's determination of evil is interesting in the fact that he doesnt seem to consider Szeth or Naln as evil.  And by interesting, I mean they are both rather homicidal.

I think that this has something to do with Naln's personality he doesn't think about whether what he's doing is right or wrong he carries out justice and that's it, as far as he is concerned anyone who breaks the law is evil. I think that his ability to not be killed by Nightblood has something to do with the way he perceives himself as a bringer of justice who follows the law to perfection and doesn't seem to think he's done anything wrong.

[natc]

Or he just plain doesn't want the sword.

That's the usual trigger of the Nightblood takeover. Nightblood can't tell the difference between good and evil.

[Kairos he/him]

Well, I guess that quote debunks this theory. Oh, well. Back to the drawing board. Although, it is quite interesting that Naln and Szeth can both handle Nightblood without stabbing themselves. I wonder if Odium could? Someone should ask Sanderson if the amount of Investiture in a being helps them control Nightblood. 

 

 

 

I still think Adonalsium could be evil. 

[Rybal]

Who makes moral judgements in the Cosmere? We know of one entity that decisively deals with evil. Nightblood. His command to Destroy Evil, makes a judgement whenever used. What's the theory here, though? Well, we know Sanderson has in-world different languages, as proven by WoR. The one example we have is that Nalthean and Rosharan are different. Why is that important? Because, I postulate that Nightblood 's Command, rendered in Nalthean, could also be translated as Consume Evil. Obviously, that's pure speculation, but it has precedent. In English, consume and destroy could be used as poetic synonyms. We know that words often have multiple interpretations, and this could be a legitimate possibility. This leads to some interesting implications, when combined with what Nightblood does. He consumes Investiture. This leads to my conclusion that Adonaisium was shattered because it was evil. Nightblood consumes Investiture because it is evil. Thoughts?

 

Are you suggesting that Nightblood shattered Adonalsium? That doesn't fit the timeline, since Nightblood was created LONG after that point.

[natc]

No, he isn't.

I'm not sure how you got that out of it.

[Kairos he/him]

Definitely not suggesting Nightblood caused the Shattering. I know the timeline better than that. The original theory was that we could use the way Nightblood acts, in conjunction with his command, to determine that Investiture was evil. However, that has been debunk by a WoB. 

 

natc, I'm not sure what you mean there. It was a bit of an off the wall theory to begin with. It was a result of me thinking too much about Nightblood. 

[natc]

I was talking to Rybal.

Quote button doing funky things on my tablet.

Edited April 26, 2015 by natc