FaeMofo Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 My friend and I have been arguing over this for weeks. In a fair fight who would win? Dakhor monk or atiumless mistborn?
Voidus Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 Probably best for things like this to go in the cosmere section in future, since this will probably have spoilers for Mistborn. We don't really have enough to say for sure since we have no idea as to what powers the Dhakor possess. Given their current abilities I'd say mistborn because their range and agility gives them the edge, in close combat, the Dhakor probably.
Straff Venture he/him Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 A normal dakhor monk would probably be outmatched from what we know so far, as they wouldnt be immune to the pushes and pulls of an allomancer, who could stay out of their reach easily too.
FaeMofo Posted October 7, 2012 Author Posted October 7, 2012 That's what i thought as well since all a mistborn would have to do is stay out of reach and riddle him with coins until he was weak, but my friend thinks that a monk would be clever and fast enough to effectively fight a mistborn.
Observer Posted October 7, 2012 Posted October 7, 2012 This goes under Cosmere Theories since it's not just dealing with Elantris things. However, think of it this way: Mistborn has pewter to keep going, monk has rediculous strength that makes them similar to a pewter savant's power Mistborn can hit from a very large distance away, Dahkor has to get close Mistborn has effectively infinite ammo since they can pull it back Mistborn can "fly" and stay out of reach for a long time Dahkor has immunity to emotional allomancy and is basically walking aluminum Depending on what era we're talking, a Mistborn would also have amazing timestop powers that would allow for some interesting things Anyways, my money's on the Mistborn, which will in turn give him more ammo to kill the Dahkor with.
RenegadeShroom Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Even in close combat, I think a Mistborn could easily win; a pewter-enhanced punch augmented with duralumin? The Dahkor monk would go down fairly quickly. Plus, the Mistborn could always just riddle the monk with coins before attacking. Going off what we know, the Mistborn seems to have a rather large advantage. I'm curious, what makes your friend think the Dahkor monk could win?
Observer Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Even in close combat, I think a Mistborn could easily win; a pewter-enhanced punch augmented with duralumin? The Dahkor monk would go down fairly quickly. I beg to differ on this point. Seems to me the Dahkor are stronger than a pewter burner, and I think they'd survive a duralumin-pewter punch. Durapewter probably can't deflect a sword slice, but a Dahkor can. Mistborn would probably have to win long-distance.
name_here Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Durapewter probably could block a sword, it's certainly up to withstanding the force of flinging open the cache doors, which is considerable. Vin's durapewter headbutt made a Thug's head outright explode, so I expect even a Dakhor monk would go down with shattered ribs from a punch.
Aradel he/him Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Sel has a lot more power available than Scadrial does due to splintering. Remember Kelsier's fight with the inquizitor more powerful than he was? Fighting a Dahkor would be much harder. It would be possible, but only through cleverness and/or duralumin. Vin could do it, but she's as skilled a mistborn as we're ever going to see.
Straff Venture he/him Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 It doesn't make sense that Kiin would have been able to kill that monk then, but he did it without any of the powers from Sel.
Windrunner he/him Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Sel has a lot more power available than Scadrial does due to splintering. Remember Kelsier's fight with the inquizitor more powerful than he was? Fighting a Dahkor would be much harder. It would be possible, but only through cleverness and/or duralumin. Vin could do it, but she's as skilled a mistborn as we're ever going to see. I think you misunderstand how Splintering works. Devotion and Dominion have been broken up into tiny fragments, instead of being one massive piece (Admittedly I don't know how the Dor fits into this). That doesn't make the users of their system any stronger. Elantrians, Dakhor monks, people using ChayShan, or (almost certainly) Forgers aren't holding Splinters of the Shards. Those are probably the Seons and Skaze. Am I misunderstanding you, or have I forgotten something?
Voidus Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 We do have WoB that Scadralian magic is comparatively weaker than the others we've seen, but no confirmation on what caused this as far as I know, and considering Endowments not splintered (As far as I know ) it seems unlikely that that's the cause. On close quarters combat I think the dhakor gain significant advantage, they don't have to worry about running out of power, if a mistborn Dura-pewtered and then didn't kill them then they're going to have it tough finding time to down some more metals before the Dhakor clobbers them. I think once we know more about the Dhakor then we'll be better equipped to answer. Considering though the Elantrians power and that the Dhakor are unlikely to be too significantly weaker than the Elantrians I think there is probably a lot we haven't seen yet, Wryn even managed to get some form of precognition going so they might even get an atium-equivalent.
Vortaan he/him Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 If Elantrians very many miles away from Elantris can take out Dakhor monks en masse, I think that a Mistborn would be able to in a duel. It would be extremely difficult, probably akin to fighting koloss. Then again, towards the end, neither Elend nor Vin have any trouble beating a koloss one on one.
Observer Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Iron and Steel burn very slowly, I doubt the Mistborn would run out before the monk was dead. And screw Allomancy being supposedly weaker than other systems, it doesn't matter. All that ever meant is that they rely more on tricks than anything else, and right now the only trick they need is a large spray of coins. The only time magical strength matters is in a fistfight of sorts, which this is not.
dyring Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Also, Dakhor uses metal swords. An unarmed dakhor vs a mistborn then, cause the metal would be gone. He might have a chance in melee if he gets his hands on an obsidian axe or something. But unarmed? Kiin could kill one with a huge battleaxe. Betting flared pewter will put them on equal grounds. Thou its possible you could boost a dakhor monk much further by adding more powers. But we don´t know that yet.
name_here Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 I think the answer to why Scadrial's magic system is weaker is that it straight-up does not have any form of supplement to the original user. AonDor has a power-boosting Aon the size of an entire city, Dakhor powers require death, as many as fifty for a counter-magic glyph and presumably dozens per monk, Awakening requires Breath, and for more powerful uses lots of it, and Surgebinding gobbles down Stormlight. For comparison, neither Allomancy nor Feruchemy have any input except metal, while with Hemalurgy killing eleven people gets a Steel Inquisitor, and killing fifty would be able to produce two Marsh-level Inquisitors.
Voidus Posted October 8, 2012 Posted October 8, 2012 Iron and Steel burn very slowly, I doubt the Mistborn would run out before the monk was dead. They would if they Duralumin burned it. We don't know that a coin would be able to pierce a Dhakor either, we just haven't seen enough of them to be able to asses their abilities. It also seems like it's fairly recently discovered so they might not know all of their own tricks just yet, hopefully when Elantris 2 comes out we'll see some more of them and we might know their full capabilities.
Thought Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 We do have WoB that Scadralian magic is comparatively weaker than the others we've seen... He said that? Huh, the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum, at least, implies the opposite, that Allomancy is more powerful than anything found on Sel: In truth, this isn't much different from the form-based Investitures one finds on Sel... Still, one cannot deny the raw power of Allomancy... Allomancy is brutal, raw, and powerful. From that, I'd really expect a common Pewterarm to have a good chance of beating a Dakhor monk. Regardless, even if a pewterarm can't, I don't doubt that SuperSpook could, with his atium-like awesomeness. And while a common mistborn might have problems, any like Kelsier or Vin (let alone Elend) wouldn't even be challenged.
Voidus Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 Yeah I was sure I saw it somewhere but now I can't find it anywhere. I thought it was the recent Q&A but I can't see it. So yeah maybe he didn't and the Ars is right
Observer Posted October 9, 2012 Posted October 9, 2012 A tin savant would be pretty even with a Dahkor, though maybe a touch weaker. I pewterarm seems to me a slightly weaker monk, so a pewter savant would probably match it. Next to that, a mistborn would destroy the poor sucker. Actually, considering how the investur ein a monk isn't set to read only like a Mistborn, it's possible they'd have some little quirks to help them fight. Which mean, what kind of monk is fighting? Final answer: Probably mistborn, but we don't know enough to be sure.
dj26792 he/him Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I dont have a source but I definitely remember reading that scadralese magic uses much less investure, but I dont think that makes it less powerful in a combat sense, I think a thug would be stronger than a monk, the monks are shown as slightly stronger and with their whole body as a weapon, I think a thug would be a fair fight a full mistborn would then most likely win.
Windrunner he/him Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I know what you guys are talking about. A new member posted it in the Ultimate List topic. Here it is, trimmed to show only the relevant bits. 3.) The amount of investiture is relatively low on Scadrial, whereas worlds like Cel [sic] and Roshar are pushing around "high power" according to Brandon. I interpreted this to mean that hemalurgic spikes and metalminds have low amounts of investiture compared to Shardplate and Shardblades. Source I don't think this contradicts with the AA of AoL. I interpret it differently then it seems most others do. I assume that "raw power" of Allomancy compared to Selish magics is what you are referring to? I read that as the power being relatively unrefined and unfocused. It doesn't require a lot of study, being more instinctual in nature. If you think about it, it makes sense that the Metallic Arts are the investiture drawing the smallest amount of spiritual energy. Look at Elantrians, Awakeners, and Surgebinders they have so much spiritual energy that they're actually glowing. This doesn't happen to Allomancers, Feruchemists, and Hemalurgists.
dj26792 he/him Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I took it more in terms of a water fight, people on scadrial have super soakers and everyone else has a bucket, heaps more water but not necessarily better in a fight.
Aradel he/him Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 I cant help but feel there's more to Dahkor than we've seen. Elantrian and forging magics are both very versitile. 2
Thought Posted October 10, 2012 Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) I don't think this contradicts with the AA of AoL. I interpret it differently then it seems most others do. I assume that "raw power" of Allomancy compared to Selish magics is what you are referring to? I read that as the power being relatively unrefined and unfocused. It doesn't require a lot of study, being more instinctual in nature. I read it mostly the same way. However, as an analogy, imagine a lump of metal, on opposite sides of which are a lurcher and an Elantrian. I am sure an Elantrian could create some aons to pull it towards them. I take the AA quote to mean that the lurcher, in our tug of war match, would be able to pull harder. The Elantrian, however, could turn the metal into bread, still pull it, and the lurcher would be left in a lurch. Pound for pound, Allomancy can hit harder, but AonDor can hit smarter. Regarding glowing, don't forget that Allomancers put off powerful shockwaves of magical sound. We never see Awakeners or Elantrians do that. Edited October 10, 2012 by Thought
Recommended Posts