Possible David Power? Spoilers!

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Ok, so as you know, Calamity, this unknown and 'all powerful' creator of Epics, attempted to give David powers, however David overcame his fear (water) over time, using the spyril, & especially when Regalia broke the glass. However, that may be, but it was never stated that David TRUELY rejected the powers. It's only known that he didn't have a Rendering. Does Daid have a secret fear we don't know of? David said he, "...felt the power coursing through his veins..." yet he still showed no sign of power. One thing that struck me as odd in BOTH books was that David was highly defensive of being called 'A Nerd.' After David attempted to get to Megan, and was late, and even after Prof's Rendering, David's only REAL chance he could've used/ testedhis powers was, against Prof. But who was there to stop it? Megan. After that, in the Epilouge, David and Megan spent time together plotting. Megan always had a tendancy to make fun of David.. sometimes calling him a NERD. After David 'gets his powers', he spends much time with Megan. Coincidence? I THINK NOT! (BTW this is my first post so welcom a new RECKONER to the RECKONERVERSE!)

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

It seems highly unlikely that David is secretly an Epic now, simply because he rejected the powers outright. Regalia says as much, and the fact Calamity ignores her after this implies that he didn't know why David beat him, but he wasn't happy about it.

[Kobold King he/him]

Welcome to the forum!

 

If I read your post correctly, I believe you're suggesting that Megan is David's weakness? That's an interesting idea, but I can't quite find the idea fully plausible...

 

• An Epic's weakness is what that Epic feared the most. So far, no known Epic has had an individual who triggered this fear as a weakness; Fortuity fears women rejecting him in general rather than an individual woman who turned him down, for instance. Steelheart fears people who do not fear him, rather than an individual person who wasn't afraid of him.

 

• Also, Prof gifted to David after the Calamity incident. This is the single most devastating fact to any theory that postulates that David is indeed an Epic.

Hope I don't sound too negative! To repeat myself, welcome to the forum!

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Hey guys sorry I didn't post. Anyway, I looked at Cobold King's comment, and yes, a big part of my theory is undermined by the fact that Prof gave David powers after his Calamity incident, and they kept him alive. How ever, if Dawnslight is an all seeing eye of his city, is it possible he knows something David doesn't, especially when he said at the end of the Epilouge, 'Dream good dreams, Steelslayer.'' I'll do a little more book snooping to find more evidence for both sides of the argument. Stay Ducky my friends!

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Ok so I looked farther into it and it seems that there is a positive side to the original argument and a downside.

PROS: As I looked into it, I read that during David's 'power transfer'? IDK but anyway, during it, David talked about how he assumed that Regalia and Calamity had spoken of his fear of water (or rather EXfear), since Regalia had obviously seem signs of it. (Also, She's Pretty Dang Smart!) He did overcome that fear. If you remember correctly in the books, when Megan had overcame her fear of fire to save David, she became much stronger, as it is evident in the fight between Prof and Megan. David' s power wouldn't take effect since he was quite LITERALLY surrounded by water at all times, thus backing the theory he has powers, yet his weakness rended them useless.

CONS: David may have overcome that evident fear, but it would still be his weakness. David also may have been surrounded by water until he killed Regalia, but when he did, the water around Manhattan would've gone down, thus giving David access to the use of his powers. David wasn't entirely around water when in Dawnslight's home, also giving him another chance to use his powers, against Obliteration first, then Regalia, and lastly Prof. David did not sleep after he gained his powers, so until the next book, we have no way of knowing if David is having nightmares, or if he even would since he overcame his fear.

Again, we have to wait an entire grueling year before we get any definite answers. Why does Brandon torture us so?

[sh4rdHero]

I think that David actually got powers. When I read through the portion that Prof gave David his powers again I noticed that David spent the next while wondering why they didn't work as expected. For example -  he blamed his survival on Profs powers, but got confused when it didn't hurt to breathe even though the profs force field would do nothing about the heat. He also healed a LOT more then it seems like it would be possible with the profs powers. The entire time it looks like he is developing his own powers, but has no idea.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

You know, the more I rethink the last few chapters of Firefight, plus a few WoBs, the more I think I might be wrong about the whole "David isn't an Epic" thing….

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

What if he gets cake powers!?!?!?! *gasp*

[Edgedancer he/him]

I think that David actually got powers. When I read through the portion that Prof gave David his powers again I noticed that David spent the next while wondering why they didn't work as expected. For example -  he blamed his survival on Profs powers, but got confused when it didn't hurt to breathe even though the profs force field would do nothing about the heat. He also healed a LOT more then it seems like it would be possible with the profs powers. The entire time it looks like he is developing his own powers, but has no idea.

I'm pretty sure that that's just because Prof gifted him so much more power than usual. Otherwise, how do you explain his powers running out as he uses them?

[Kobold King he/him]

You know, the more I rethink the last few chapters of Firefight, plus a few WoBs, the more I think I might be wrong about the whole "David isn't an Epic" thing….

 

But... but... he was gifted. What precisely in the last few chapters makes you think he could be an Epic?

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

But... but... he was gifted. What precisely in the last few chapters makes you think he could be an Epic?

I don't know, but I recently read a signing transcript where Brandon was asked who his favorite Epic was. His first answer: "You don't know they're an Epic yet." When asked it again, he backtracked and said "Firefight." It would be just like the Bandersnatch to give us all this "evidence" that David isn't an Epic, only to prove it was just a red herring. It seems like quite the long shot, and I'm having trouble completely buying into the theory myself, but I'm reserving judgement until I read Calamity.

Because the pool of "secret Epic" candidates is pretty small. It's either David....or the gun that shot Megan.

Edit: If David does have a power--which again, I think is a long shot, but the Bandersnatch could pull it off--I highly doubt it's stealing other Epics' powers in a way that makes it look like he was gifted. For one, that power is entirely too convenient; and two, it's nigh-useless unless he manages to get close enough to an Epic to steal their powers.

Once again: I think David being an Epic is a long shot. And I LIKE the idea that he rejected Calamity outright. I LIKE the idea of beating Calamity in a rigged game. But I am willing to entertain the notion I'm wrong.

Edited April 17, 2015 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles

[Kobold King he/him]

I don't know, but I recently read a signing transcript where Brandon was asked who his favorite Epic was. His first answer: "You don't know they're an Epic yet." When asked it again, he backtracked and said "Firefight." It would be just like the Bandersnatch to give us all this "evidence" that David isn't an Epic, only to prove it was just a red herring. It seems like quite the long shot, and I'm having trouble completely buying into the theory myself, but I'm reserving judgement until I read Calamity.

Because the pool of "secret Epic" candidates is pretty small. It's either David....or the gun that shot Megan.

If you're talking about the incident I think you're talking about, then the reason he said "you don't know they're an Epic yet" was because he was speaking at a signing in which he'd pledged not to spoil either Reckoners book. He answered "Firefight" at the later point in the signing in which he'd allowed spoilers.

Also, you're thinking too narrowly. Mizzy could totally be the High Epic Cookiecutter in disguise.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

If you're talking about the incident I think you're talking about, then the reason he said "you don't know they're an Epic yet" was because he was speaking at a signing in which he'd pledged not to spoil either Reckoners book. He answered "Firefight" at the later point in the signing in which he'd allowed spoilers.

Also, you're thinking too narrowly. Mizzy could totally be the High Epic Cookiecutter in disguise.

 

I was talking about that one, before I went back and read the thing. Oops. 

 

But then there's this gem right here: 

 

Questioner: At the end of Firefight when it says that if you overcome your fears that the corruption kind of ceases to exist.  Does that mean an Epic's weakness is resolved [also?]

Brandon: That is a question for the sequel.

Questioner: So would that imply that maybe David has a power but he doesn’t know it because he overcame the water fear?

Brandon: That’s entirely possible…  You’re asking good questions.

 

 

I'm not saying "That's it! That's what happened! David is totes an Epic now, guise!" I still tend more toward the "he rejected the powers outright" theory. I'm just reserving judgement until I read Calamity. 

 

Mizzy could totally be an Epic, but why limit it to just one secret Epic? What if she and the gun that shot Megan both have powers, and they realize it at the exact same time? What if every human Reckoner is secretly an Epic? What if every human human is secretly an Epic and the government has been hushing it up because conspiracies? 

[Kobold King he/him]

I was talking about that one, before I went back and read the thing. Oops. 

 

But then there's this gem right here: 

 

 

I'm not saying "That's it! That's what happened! David is totes an Epic now, guise!" I still tend more toward the "he rejected the powers outright" theory. I'm just reserving judgement until I read Calamity. 

 

Mizzy could totally be an Epic, but why limit it to just one secret Epic? What if she and the gun that shot Megan both have powers, and they realize it at the exact same time? What if every human Reckoner is secretly an Epic? What if every human human is secretly an Epic and the government has been hushing it up because conspiracies? 

 

Hrrm. Maybe. I personally dislike the ramifications of this theory, as I'd like to see David as an ordinary vanilla through all the books, but I suppose, technically, it's possible. Though the bulk of the evidence still points against it.

 

Maybe Steelheart was actually a normal person who faked being an Epic through technology--and he was Prof's brother! (I clicked the word conspiracies several times before I realized it wasn't a link. )   

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Hrrm. Maybe. I personally dislike the ramifications of this theory, as I'd like to see David as an ordinary vanilla through all the books, but I suppose, technically, it's possible. Though the bulk of the evidence still points against it.

 

Maybe Steelheart was actually a normal person who faked being an Epic through technology--and he was Prof's brother! (I clicked the word conspiracies several times before I realized it wasn't a link. )   

 

I'm with you there—the evidence in support of David's potential powers is far, far outweighed by the evidence against it. The healing-Epic theory does hold a certain appeal….but then there's the fact it wore off, or at least appeared to. Like you, I prefer the idea that David remains powerless and ordinary throughout the entire series, and I love, love, love the idea of beating Calamity in a game that's rigged in Calamity's favor. But if anyone could pull off this twist, it would be the Bandersnatch. If anyone would pull off this twist, it would be the Bandersnatch. (Well, I suppose M. Night Shyamalan would try, but then it would turn out that David's dad was ALIVE THE WHOLE TIME. ) 

 

Prof's illegitimate brother from an illegal arranged marriage with an alien diplomat! (Heh. Sorry. ) 

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I am in the "David is totes an Epic" camp as far as theories are concerned. Given we already know of one difference between Epics who have overcome their fears and those who have not, there is absolutely no reason to believe there aren't other differences. I have almost convinced myself they are two different things entirely; Epics and Heroes (not sold on the Heroes name, but it works for now). Not feeling the corrupting urges is enough, in my mind, to require a difference in classification. I don't see why you've all convinced yourselves there can't be other differences, other than the "Epics can't be gifted to" opinions of the characters. Characters who, up until the very end of Firefight, didn't know Epics could ever not feel the corruption. It is the situation of a biased or ignorant PoV.

 

That being said, I want David to remain a vanilla. Otherwise the message of "The layman can make big changes too, not just the important people" that Steelheart sets is tarnished.

 

Edit: I in no way meant to imply anyone who thinks David is not an Epic is "biased or ignorant." I meant the characters are. See my next post for an explanation, and I apologize to anyone who misread that statement.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Blaze1616

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

I am in the "David is totes an Epic" camp as far as theories are concerned. Given we already know of one difference between Epics who have overcome their fears and those who have not, there is absolutely no reason to believe there aren't other differences. I have almost convinced myself they are two different things entirely; Epics and Heroes (not sold on the Heroes name, but it works for now). Not feeling the corrupting urges is enough, in my mind, to require a difference in classification. I don't see why you've all convinced yourselves there can't be other differences, other than the "Epics can't be gifted to" opinions of the characters. Characters who, up until the very end of Firefight, didn't know Epics could ever not feel the corruption. It is the situation of a biased or ignorant PoV.

That being said, I want David to remain a vanilla. Otherwise the message of "The layman can make big changes too, not just the important people" that Steelheart sets is tarnished.

"Biased or ignorant"? That seems a little harsh to describe making a conjecture based on limited evidence. You're right--we haven't seen much of uncorrupted Epics. The evidence IS scant, so we're going off what we've seen so far. Can it be refuted in the next book? Absolutely. But calling our position "biased or ignorant" is like calling cops "biased or ignorant" for going after the (ultimately) wrong suspect because all the evidence they have points to him. Edited April 20, 2015 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles

[Blaze1616 he/him]

No no no, that's not what I meant at all! I meant the situation is one of trusting the word of "biased or ignorant" characters. The characters are biased or ignorant, not you guys! I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to sound that way!

 

Let me explain it with an example. In Steelheart, if you asked Tia "are there Epics who can use their powers firsthand and not feel the corruption?" her answer would be "No." Now, her answer would be "Yes." (under the assumption she learns of Megan's lack of feeling the corruption) My point was using the argument of "The characters tell us Epics can't be gifted" as reasoning for David not being an Epic is not a very good argument, just as using "The characters tell us all Epics are evil" as an argument for "No Epics can be good" would be a bad argument from prior to Firefight.

 

I'd also like to say the terms "biased" and "ignorant" are in no way denoted negatively. I would indeed say those cops were ignorant, as they were not privy to the truth.

 

And again, I in no way meant to call you ignorant or biased. I apologize if that is how you read my post.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Blaze1616

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

An, okay. Sorry for taking that personally. Apology cookie?

[Blaze1616 he/him]

No, the misunderstanding is my fault. As an apology, have an adorable picture of a Shug (Shark-Pug))

 

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

No, the misunderstanding is my fault. As an apology, have an adorable picture of a Shug (Shark-Pug))

Oh my gosh he's adorable!

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

I as well have a contribution to make to this 'Awww-fest' •determined face•

Edited April 20, 2015 by TheSpartanDuck

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

My love for pugs is well known, it seems.

[TheSpartanDuck he/him]

Very much su. Pewdiepug.

[Blackhoof]

No no no, that's not what I meant at all! I meant the situation is one of trusting the word of "biased or ignorant" characters. The characters are biased or ignorant, not you guys! I'm sorry, I didn't mean it to sound that way!

 

Let me explain it with an example. In Steelheart, if you asked Tia "are there Epics who can use their powers firsthand and not feel the corruption?" her answer would be "No." Now, her answer would be "Yes." (under the assumption she learns of Megan's lack of feeling the corruption) My point was using the argument of "The characters tell us Epics can't be gifted" as reasoning for David not being an Epic is not a very good argument, just as using "The characters tell us all Epics are evil" as an argument for "No Epics can be good" would be a bad argument from prior to Firefight.

 

I'd also like to say the terms "biased" and "ignorant" are in no way denoted negatively. I would indeed say those cops were ignorant, as they were not privy to the truth.

 

And again, I in no way meant to call you ignorant or biased. I apologize if that is how you read my post.

It is certainly true that the information we have is open to change- but the issue is that you are saying characters have been wrong before, so maybe they are wrong about this", but that is, by itself, meaningless. We could say "maybe calamity isn't an epic, the characters might be wrong" or any other piece of information that could conceivably be revealed to be wrong in the next book.

and id say that there is a bigger correlation between powers and corruption than between weaknesses and gifting. The corruption is a result of the powers, which are turned off by the weakness, revealed to be a fundamental part of Epic psychology, both individually and collectively. Gifting is a transfer of powers from Epic to vanilla, and possibly Calamity to Epic. It isn't a direct link with weaknesses like powers are. I don't see any reason for Epics ro be able to gift to a Heroes, it just doesn't make sense.