Observer Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Alright, Brandon's latest Q&A gave us some pretty impressive heaps of information. There was one in particular (my question of course ) that stood out to me. The smoke-like spren, mostly ignored due to their placing in the book, apparently form a bond with the Greatshells, allowing them to grow to their massive sizes without needing an exoskeleton. This is the third instance we've seen of Spren forming a bond, and I odn't think its a coincidence. All spren form bonds. All of them. Not just Honorspren. We've had it confirmed that spren are both Honor and Cultivation, and bonds fit righ tin with it. They bring things together, forming connections and bonds. This is essentially what honor does. On the other hand, it's a symbiotic relationship, helping both the spren and the human grow, which is a major element of cultivation. In Kaladin we see Syl gaining intelligence, and in return giving Kaladin Windrunning. Shallan gains Soulcasting from the Truthspren, and they gain something in return. And now we have greatshells, the single most powerful source of gemhearts, and it just so happens they have a bond with spren. I don't think it's a coincidence. So, discuss. What other spren do, what Truthspren get from Shallan, all that wonderful stuff. (I'm also baking brownies for all who espouse the theory, just so you know ) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yados Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 It could be that it's the natural state of all life on Roshar is to form symbiotic bonds with Spren and something has happened to humans that makes it exceedingly rare for Spren to bond with them anymore. Maybe that could have something to do with the moving plants, sky eels, and magic fish. Thinking back to that "alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" line in Dalinar's flashback to before the formation of the Knights Radiant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Thinking back to that "alas, not all spren are as discerning as honorspren" line in Dalinar's flashback to before the formation of the Knights Radiant. Ah yes, I should add that to the OP. The quote heavily implies that Honorspren aren't th eonly things that bond, though they are a lot pickier with their targets. EDIT: Totally missed it! It also means that Surgebinding doesn't have to come from an Honorspren. That could be bad. Really bad. Edited September 28, 2012 by Observer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Ah yes, I should add that to the OP. The quote heavily implies that Honorspren aren't th eonly things that bond, though they are a lot pickier with their targets. EDIT: Totally missed it! It also means that Surgebinding doesn't have to come from an Honorspren. That could be bad. Really bad. Also note that Brandon confirmed Szeth is a Windrunner without a (honor?)spren. It also says that the shards on a planet can influence the base behaviour of (I think just humans) on a planet, with Roshar as one of the examples. It may allow spren bonding at the extreme end(s?) of the spectrum. Also, what about Shinovar? There are no spren (that we know of) there. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straff Venture he/him Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Also, what about Shinovar? There are no spren (that we know of) there. Thoughts? That implies spren have some sort of connection to the highstorms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner he/him Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Or perhaps Stormlight. I think a good question to ask would be if there are any less spren visible on Roshar during the Weeping, when highstorms stop for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) There are special Spren that only appear during a Weeping. Dunno what the effect on normal Spren is. Edited September 28, 2012 by name_here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthlessShin Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 My theory has always been that most Spren are just the cognitive representation of everything. For example, flamespren are the representation of how the flame sees itself, hence it freezing in a state that it has been recorded in. Something about the magic of roshar, probably having to do with honor being splintered, has allowed the Spren to represent themselves in the physical realm, at least in the area where honor was splintered. Since all Brandon's (non-YA) books are set in the cosmere, maybe every world has Spren that usually stay in the cognitive realm? That being said, my guess is that all the Spren we've seen in the physical realm are somehow related to honor, while the ones we've seen in the cognitive realm (deathspren, the ones shallan sees, etc) are related to cultivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightflame he/him Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Yes, by forming bonds, each side grows. The cause each other to gain strength. You could even say they cultivate each other. As for the Shinovar issue, I think that it implies that existing Spren will disappear or die without an influx of Stormlight. The Shin don't want Fabrials, which are made with Spren. I'd assume that the Shin are unable to use them, as the Spren wouldn't stay in the Fabrial for long without any Highstorms/Stormlight around. This would mean that Spren are bound to the physical realm by Stormlight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dionysus Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Also, what about Shinovar? There are no spren (that we know of) there. Thoughts? Is Shinovar somehow Honorless with a capital H? Seems clear that Shinovar is a very cultivation focused society, with farmers being the rich and powerful. By Honorless I don't mean they are bad people, just that Honor has no influence there. It also doesn't jive with me that Shen thinks he is being honorable by being an assassin not permitted to make any moral judgement on his actions, just blind obedience. Sounds like the opposite of honor, or a perversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted September 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 Sounds like the opposite of honor, or a perversion. You forget, there are a lot of ways to take an Intent. Preservation could have been self-preserving and selfish. Odium could decide to Hate evil. Honor can do it too. What Szeth does is honorable, just not in a good way. Unfortunately, as Ruin elegantly puts it, morality doesn't even enter the question when Shards are involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted September 29, 2012 Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 You forget, there are a lot of ways to take an Intent. Preservation could have been self-preserving and selfish. Odium could decide to Hate evil. Honor can do it too. What Szeth does is honorable, just not in a good way. Unfortunately, as Ruin elegantly puts it, morality doesn't even enter the question when Shards are involved. Agreed. Szeth is doing terrible things, but for what he believes are the right reasons. His master is whoever holds his Oathstone - suggesting that he is upholding an oath by remaining loyal to the stone's holder. Seems to me like this is an easy way to have someone's honour (in upholding their oath) used against them. Szeth is placed in the uncomfortable position of betraying his oath, or performing terrible misdeeds in upholding it. Not dissimilar to soldiers in war, given orders to carry out immoral acts. Which is more important to you; your oath of obedience, or your personal morality? Obviously Szeth chose the oath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zas678 he/him Posted September 29, 2012 Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 Or maybe the fact that Shinovar doesn't have any exposed Stone. That could be it too. Or maybe the fact that Shinovar doesn't have any exposed Stone. That could be the reason why there aren't any Spren in Shinovar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dionysus Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 You forget, there are a lot of ways to take an Intent. Preservation could have been self-preserving and selfish. Odium could decide to Hate evil. Honor can do it too. What Szeth does is honorable, just not in a good way. Unfortunately, as Ruin elegantly puts it, morality doesn't even enter the question when Shards are involved. Good point. I agree that honor doesn't have to be good, though this point I think can only be resolved by Sanderson defining to us what exactly he means by honor. That was somewhat a throwaway line in my post. My main point is could perhaps Shinovar be an Honor-free zone or area of reduced Honor influence. - Culture seems to share a lot of values that align with Cultivation - No stormlight (since no highstorms) which people oftem assume to be a component of Honor's magic system Or maybe the fact that Shinovar doesn't have any exposed Stone. That could be it too. Or maybe the fact that Shinovar doesn't have any exposed Stone. That could be the reason why there aren't any Spren in Shinovar. Do the Horneaters (Rock's people) also revere stone? My memory is telling me they do but I can't remember a specific reference and I could be just making stuff up. So far we know the Parshmen place some importance on stone and so do the Shin. Knowing Sanderson, that means stone is important in the magic system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted October 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 The Purelaker's religion can't have been mentioned by accident either. It's possible their "Jealous brother" religion has a base. Maybe Honor and Cultivation weren't on as good of terms as we though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 I'm almost certain the Purelaker religion "jealous brother" is a relative of Trell worship from Scadrial, where they believed the stars were the thousand eyes of Trell and the sun was his jealous brother trying to blot them out. Plus, they can only discuss their true god in special caves. Presumably ones lined with metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Observer Posted October 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 I'm almost certain the Purelaker religion "jealous brother" is a relative of Trell worship from Scadrial, where they believed the stars were the thousand eyes of Trell and the sun was his jealous brother trying to blot them out. Plus, they can only discuss their true god in special caves. Presumably ones lined with metal. That was a Scadrial parallel I found hard to miss. But in the name of keeping things non-worldhopping, maybe they'e made of whatever blinds the Rosharian Shards? Besides flashbangs of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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