Were The Unmade... Made?

[Axies]

Hi guys,

 

I've been searching for this non some topics and couldn't find it anywhere. Sorry if I'm asking something that's already been asked.

I happen to be helping with the Spanish translate of Words of Radiance and I found myself asking a question. Unmade can mean 2 things and they are diferent words on Spanish for them.

 

1- Unmade are things that were never... made.

2- Unmade were made once but then they were unmade.

Asked Peter on Twitter...

YellowSign ‏@Yourigath 21 de mar.

 

@PeterAhlstrom the Unmade were "made" or are Unmade because they have never been made? It would be 2 different words in Spanish. Thank you.

Peter Ahlstrom ‏@PeterAhlstrom 21 de mar.

 

@Yourigath That is a good question. I assumed they had never been made but it's possible it is the other.

That's kind of the theory I'm following, but what do you think guys?
 

 

 

[Argent]

Considering how little we know about them, it could go either way. I've been thinking of them beings that have been unmade - destroyed in some way. But that's with no proof, I think I just see the word "unmade" in this kind of context a lot more often. As opposed to, for example, unborn, which practically never means "to reverse birth"

[dvoraen]

Based on the hints we've gotten -- that they're Splinters of Odium, and Rlain's comments about them -- I think the safer choice for translating "Unmade" is in the sense of "destruir", or maybe "Los Deshechos"?  This is strictly my opinion, though.  As you said, it really depends on whether Peter or Brandon will provide tidbits and context on how the Unmade came into existence, really, whether it was because Honor basically forced it to happen (causing Odium to be Invested in Roshar via the Unmade) or because Odium had to effectively create them in order to later be unopposed to leaving Roshar.

Edited March 23, 2015 by dvoraen

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Given that they are splinters of Odium as I'm pretty sure we have a WoB now that I saw recently, will look later, and splinters are either intentionally made or created when a Shard shatters, either way they are "made" to me. 

 

If you're helping with the official translation though, i'd think you could have an actual chat with Brandon to clarify this? 

[Axies]

All those explanations about how they made are really great and helpful, but as splinters of Odium they were never "made" to be unmade into those splinters. I don't know if I'm talking crazy or you understand me.

 

If they were once something and then they were unmade into the Unmade they are as dvoraen said "Deshechos" (p.e. You go to sleep and when you wake up your bed is unmade)

But if they weren't anything (they were parte of the power of Odium, but not something else to be unmade) until they were made into the Unmade... There's no word in Spanish that would fit, but they wouldn't be "Deshechos". (p.e. You go to Ikea, buy a bed and you have all the parts but the bed is not... made yet)

I've sent a mail to the publishers to talk with Brandon about this (and other) things, but I'm helping merely as a fan of the Cosmere (In the Way of Kings the translate had no reference to Cultivation at all and in this one the word he used was "Cultivo" that you can translate as "Crops?" and there are other mistakes that make the Cosmere nearly imposible to understand to the spanish readers), so my "power" here is so limited...

[dvoraen]

Personally, since the English is clear that the Unmade are variants of destructive forces, I'd lean towards some creative licensing with "destruir".  It'd be a kind of catch-all between the (arguably more literal) translations of "unmade" in Spanish, while conveying the intention that the Unmade are nasty critters that want to mess things up.

[Dihatimus]

Un generally means not, unprepared, unimpressed, uncooked. Using un gives the impression that something is not, but it either was or it should be. It may imply a time sequence, for example, unglued implies that something was once glued, or that it will be glued in the future. Uncooked implies that something will eventually become cooked but has not been yet. I am unprepared. I use unprepared because it implies a state of expectation. I should be prepared or I would like to be prepared.

 

The Unmade could be things that were once made but are no longer, or something that hasn't been made yet but was intended to. I do not think that Unmade would have been a good choice of words if something was not made nor was going to be made. Which may point to the single most intriguing aspect of its use. If they were not made, where did they come from? How did they come to be?

[Marns]

Personally, since the English is clear that the Unmade are variants of destructive forces, I'd lean towards some creative licensing with "destruir".  It'd be a kind of catch-all between the (arguably more literal) translations of "unmade" in Spanish, while conveying the intention that the Unmade are nasty critters that want to mess things up.

I think the same.

 

Unmade literally is "Desecho" or " Sin Hacerse" ( though in spanish "desecho" is "melt") but I don't think that this can apply in this case. It Sounds rare to me translate Unmade in Desecho.

I collaborate with Axies in the translation and we hope to find a better solution than Desecho ( really sounds horribly ugly )

[Botanica]

I also do the translation of WoR, so here is a suggestion: in Chinese mainland version, "Unmade" is translated as a word which has similar meaning to "destroyer". (I agree with @dvoraen)

[dvoraen]

 

I think the same.

 

Unmade literally is "Desecho" or " Sin Hacerse" ( though in spanish "desecho" is "melt") but I don't think that this can apply in this case. It Sounds rare to me translate Unmade in Desecho.

I collaborate with Axies in the translation and we hope to find a better solution than Desecho ( really sounds horribly ugly )

 

I didn't want to use phonaesthetics as my primary argument, but I also think calling the Unmade "Los Deshechos" sounds feo to my ears.  Nothing's coming to mind yet as a real suggestion for a proper noun via destruir, though.  The closest idea I've had to one is a vague "bastardization" of destruir much as "hay" derives from haber.  "Destruyos" and "Destruidos" sounds bleh to me also, to say nothing of the implication in the latter (that they destroyed themselves or were destroyed and no longer exist).

 

EDIT: After thinking about it a little, and browsing a dictionary, I would lean towards "Los Devastadores".  Or, if you want to go crazy, "Los Destruyadores," which isn't a real word in Spanish I believe.  I don't like "Los Destructores" for some reason; I kept thinking some combination of destruir and words such as matador and conquistador (hence the suffix spliced onto the not-quite present participle of destruir: destruyendo).

Edited March 24, 2015 by dvoraen

[Axies]

I also do the translation of WoR, so here is a suggestion: in Chinese mainland version, "Unmade" is translated as a word which has similar meaning to "destroyer". (I agree with @dvoraen)

 

 

I didn't want to use phonaesthetics as my primary argument, but I also think calling the Unmade "Los Deshechos" sounds feo to my ears.  Nothing's coming to mind yet as a real suggestion for a proper noun via destruir, though.  The closest idea I've had to one is a vague "bastardization" of destruir much as "hay" derives from haber.  "Destruyos" and "Destruidos" sounds bleh to me also, to say nothing of the implication in the latter (that they destroyed themselves or were destroyed and no longer exist).

 

EDIT: After thinking about it a little, and browsing a dictionary, I would lean towards "Los Devastadores".  Or, if you want to go crazy, "Los Destruyadores," which isn't a real word in Spanish I believe.  I don't like "Los Destructores" for some reason; I kept thinking some combination of destruir and words such as matador and conquistador (hence the suffix spliced onto the not-quite present participle of destruir: destruyendo).

We really want the names to be as accurate as posible. I think that making them "Destroyers" instead of "Unmade" changes all the meaning of the name itself.

 

I know that their intention seems hostile and they are products of Odium so their calling could be "Destroy", but they also are thnigs that had not the "spark of life" on them and so to say are Unmade or the had it and had been destroyed and now are Unmade. If we could know what Sanderson was thinking when he named them (I'm going to send a mail to Ediciones B, again, to see if they can speak with Sanderson about this)...

With that I don't say that I don't appreciate all this feedback. I really like what this community is giving us (specially you dvoraen) in order to make the spanish book as accurate as possible to the Cosmere.

Keeo the feedback coming!

[natc]

Also, Destroyer sounds like something Ruin would come up with...

[Marns]

 We've been talking and "Sinhacer" ( the literal translation ) is the best option.  Los Destructores sound to me like a band.

[dvoraen]

 We've been talking and "Sinhacer" ( the literal translation ) is the best option.  Los Destructores sound to me like a band.

Here's a completely from-nowhere thought that just struck me:

 

Why not go for the archaic spelling of it?  I'm not good with archaic Spanish by any metric, but using it in that form would also convey their considerable age, I would think.  It's not a form that native speakers would necessarily know, but it is an easter egg that also distinguishes the Unmade as "ancient, evil spren", as Taravangian terms them.

 

I also kind of like how (roughly) "Sinfacer" (or possibly "Sinfazer"*) sounds in place of "Sinhacer", so I'm biased.  It MAY BE (>_>) a coincidence that it looks like "sin facer" too.

 

A second thought I was wondering about: what was Unmade translated to in the Way of Kings epigraphs?  I just suddenly realized that there is exactly one mention of them (Yelig-nar's epigraph), so that would have been translated there.

 

* I skimmed Wikipedia on the subject of Old Castilian phonics, so by no means am I asserting this as correct.

Edited March 24, 2015 by dvoraen

[Marns]

Your point is interesting. But the problem with "Sin Facer" is the term "Facer". Facer is Español medio ( some archaic form of modern spanish) which is obsolete.  This option could be strange and I think that couldn't be correct. You bring out some another point that I think is really interesting, Unmade as an ancient and evil spren. This connotation is lost with "sinhacer" but is dificult to incorporate in the meaning of the term. In english is easy create new words from two other words but translate it with all the meanings... 

[Moogle]

Rlain is extremely clear that the Parshedi gods (all-but-confirmed to be the Unmade) are made from/are the souls of those ancient listeners who "gave of themselves to destroy".

 

“You spoke of the Parshendi,” Dalinar said. “This has to do with the red eyes?”

Rlain nodded.

“What does it mean , soldier?” Dalinar asked.

“It means our gods have returned ,” Rlain whispered.

“Who are your gods?”

“They are the souls of those ancient. Those who gave of themselves to destroy.” A different rhythm to his words this time , slow and reverent . He looked up at Dalinar. “They hate you and your kind, sir. This new form they have given my people . . . it is something terrible. It will bring something terrible.”

 

And while I'm busy quoting things, here's the bit where 'gods' and 'Unmade' are used interchangeably:

“That’s not good,” Mother said.

“But the alternative? Dabbling in things we shouldn’t, things that might bring the eyes of the Unmade upon us[,]” [Eshonai said.]

“You’re not working,” Mother said, pointing. “Don’t be like your sister.”

...

The new rhythms thrummed in her skull, though she stayed away from the Rhythm of Peace, with its strange screams. There was no fighting against what she had become. The eyes of the gods were too strongly upon her.

 

My interpretation is that when humans arrive and the spren betrayed the listeners, it prompted a war and some listeners sacrificed themselves to Odium to get vengeance and were sandblasted with power. This turned them into the Unmade, which are possibly mindless spren/ orCognitive shadows. Unmade were once listeners who have been "unmade" into something else - either the old listeners are dead now, replaced with Splinters, or they're like the Returned kinda, or maybe more like the shades on Threnody and are Cognitive Shadows.

 

[Edit: Weiry disagrees with this assessment, for what it's worth, so don't take what I say here as fact. He thinks an alternative is that "the souls of those ancient" could refer to spren, though I disagree strongly with this.]

 

I think it most likely that the Unmade are not just Splinters who took over the sacrificing listener's bodies, since Rlain says they are the souls of those ancient, but it's not like he's super Cosmere-aware. He wouldn't know for sure.

 

The listener songs are also pretty much clear they are/have Splinters of Odium:

Our gods were born splinters of a soul, Of one who seeks to take control, Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite. They are his spren, his gift, his price. But the nightforms speak of future life, A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite. —From the Listener Song of Secrets, final stanza
 

I think the best interpretation here is that "splinters of a soul" refers to Splinters of Odium, but it's possible the "splinters of a soul" bit refers to the listeners who had their souls blasted to bits, though, leaving them with splinters of a soul left?

 

---

 

Either way, of the two definitions you put down, I lean heavily towards "Unmade were made once but then they were unmade."

 

Translation is hard, though, and it might not be a bad idea to do as Botanica did and just give them a new name. 'Destroyers' certainly is pretty descriptive of what they do.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Moogle

[WindrunnerRadiant]

Also, Destroyer sounds like something Ruin would come up with...

 

True, but I feel like Odium, a being who hates everything, would create beings whose jobs are to "unmake."

[dvoraen]

@Moogle: Plus the implication (in the songs) that the Unmade transformed the Listeners to better be able to exploit them; I'm not referring to how they can presumably force various (Void?) forms on the Listeners, but changed them to be able to do that.  (Hmm, "unmade" the Listener race somewhat? ...)

Edited March 25, 2015 by dvoraen

[Axies]

My interpretation is that when humans arrive and the spren betrayed the listeners, it prompted a war and some listeners sacrificed themselves to Odium to get vengeance and were sandblasted with power. This turned them into the Unmade, which are possibly mindless spren/ orCognitive shadows. Unmade were once listeners who have been "unmade" into something else - either the old listeners are dead now, replaced with Splinters, or they're like the Returned kinda, or maybe more like the shades on Threnody and are Cognitive Shadows.

 

Aren't the Unmade splinters of Odium? How can they be listeners if they are splinters?

"Whereas Slivers are people who have been influenced by Shardic power, a Splinter is a thing that has never been human." (from the Coppermind)

I like your point but it would make the Unmade slivers of Odium and I'm pretty sure that they are, in fact, splinters. They are powerful sprens just like Nightwatcher. They are the gods of the Listeners because they are the power of Odium and that makes them "godlike".

 

@Moogle: Plus the implication (in the songs) that the Unmade transformed the Listeners to better be able to exploit them; I'm not referring to how they can presumably force various (Void?) forms on the Listeners, but changed them to be able to do that.  (Hmm, "unmade" the Listener race somewhat? ...)

 

So... maybe the intention on the word "Unmade" is not because they are unmade but because they are unmakers? They "unmade" the Listeners the same way the Lord Ruler "unmade" the people of Scadrial or Harmony "unmade" the Koloss to make of them new (more adaptable) things?

[Marns]

 

 

So... maybe the intention on the word "Unmade" is not because they are unmade but because they are unmakers? They "unmade" the Listeners the same way the Lord Ruler "unmade" the people of Scadrial or Harmony "unmade" the Koloss to make of them new (more adaptable) things?

 

Then the meaning of " The unmade" would change and "Sinhacer" wouldn't be correct. In that case maybe " Corrompedores " could be more correct or even "Destructores". 

Edited March 25, 2015 by Marns

[Moogle]

Aren't the Unmade splinters of Odium? How can they be listeners if they are splinters?

"Whereas Slivers are people who have been influenced by Shardic power, a Splinter is a thing that has never been human." (from the Coppermind)

I like your point but it would make the Unmade slivers of Odium and I'm pretty sure that they are, in fact, splinters. They are powerful sprens just like Nightwatcher. They are the gods of the Listeners because they are the power of Odium and that makes them "godlike".

 

The Divine Breath every Returned has is a Splinter. In a similar way, Unmade could have one while still being listeners.

[Axies]

The Divine Breath every Returned has is a Splinter. In a similar way, Unmade could have one while still being listeners.

The Divine Breath is the splinter, not the Retunred... here is the same. If the Unmade is the splinter inside the Listener or the Unmade is the Listener... If the first we are still in the same "problem" is this splinter something like a spren that has been unmade or is some raw power that has never been made? if the second they wouldn't be splinters and it is not the case (I believe). 

[dvoraen]

Here's a weird(?) thought.  Suppose the Unmade are Splinters in the sense that Divine Breaths are (it's more or less a special power Invested directly by the Shard's holder).  However, since we're on Roshar, we know these Splinters generally take the form of spren.  In other words, a Listener host completely consumed by an overwhelming force (the spren-Splinter) to the point that the body is all but a vessel for the Splinter which is what is really acting.  So... possession, I guess is what that summarizes into?

 

Alternatively, the ones that "can think" are just sentient forms of Splinters, given thought and "life" by personification from men in the same way the Stormfather is.

Edited March 26, 2015 by dvoraen

[natc]

Well, shards basically do that to people anyway with the personality takeover. Not farfetched.

Poor Ati.

[Marns]

@dvoraen I like your Idea! What you said have a sense to me. But what if the splinters in the Unmade are the diferent aspects of the intents of Odium ? Something like Seons ( the splinters are the Aons inside Seons )

Edited March 26, 2015 by Marns