Shattered Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 1. In HoA, while Marsh is being controlled by Ruin, he reacts negatively to the notion of spiking the Misting in the town next to Tyrian (Was it Tyrian? I'm pretty sure it was.), then travel all the way to Luthadel to spike Penrod. He didn't like that it would be leaking power all that time. My question is, why? Hemalurgy is end-negative, since there is always some power lost in the process. That is very Ruin-like. But why be bothered that the spike was losing power? One would think he would be pleased to see so much of it disappear. I feel one of the attempts to explain this will be Sazed's explanation that "He knew that if he built one thing up, he could use it to knock down two others." But this opens up a broader issue. Can Ruin really ignore his intent in order to achieve his goals? It seems illogical that he would try and preserve as much power as he could, as that is in direct contrast with his intent. Also, in HoA it was revealed that Preservation couldn't suicide-bomb Ruin himself, as that went against his intent. Why is it different for Leras? 2. Does Hemalurgic power stop leaking when a subject is spiked? This seems to be the case, as Vin had her earring out for years after she was originally spiked. If it is true, why? Spiked people don't retain their stolen abilities when the spike is removed, so the power obviously went back into the spike. So why doesn't it leak? 3. Okay, so spikes made of different metals steal different abilities. But then the abilities granted also differ depending on the bind point. And hypothetically, if you wanted to steal an Allomantic ability from a Misting, then you could only take the one that they actually have. But steel simply 'steals physical Allomancy.' Does this mean that the only way to get the ability to burn pewter is to skewer a Thug with a steel spike and then insert it into only the correct bind point? So if you accidentally miss and spike the wrong spot, nothing happens? Or can you actually transmute one form of physical Allomancy into another by changing bind points? Basically, if anyone has some hidden treasure trove of Hemalurgic theory, I would like to know. 4. This last one is just guess on my part that I think is true: Zane's spike granted him increased power with steel, right? That would explain why he was able to pull off a controlled Push. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Shard Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 1. In HoA, while Marsh is being controlled by Ruin, he reacts negatively to the notion of spiking the Misting in the town next to Tyrian (Was it Tyrian? I'm pretty sure it was.), then travel all the way to Luthadel to spike Penrod. He didn't like that it would be leaking power all that time. My question is, why? Hemalurgy is end-negative, since there is always some power lost in the process. That is very Ruin-like. But why be bothered that the spike was losing power? One would think he would be pleased to see so much of it disappear. I feel one of the attempts to explain this will be Sazed's explanation that "He knew that if he built one thing up, he could use it to knock down two others." But this opens up a broader issue. Can Ruin really ignore his intent in order to achieve his goals? It seems illogical that he would try and preserve as much power as he could, as that is in direct contrast with his intent. Also, in HoA it was revealed that Preservation couldn't suicide-bomb Ruin himself, as that went against his intent. Why is it different for Leras? My understanidng was that the more power granted via Hemalurgy, the more Ruin could control you. And it's not that he disregards his Intent, he merely is preserving in order to Ruin on a grander scale. It's a matter of perspective on where the Intent comes in. 2. Does Hemalurgic power stop leaking when a subject is spiked? This seems to be the case, as Vin had her earring out for years after she was originally spiked. If it is true, why? Spiked people don't retain their stolen abilities when the spike is removed, so the power obviously went back into the spike. So why doesn't it leak? Not exactly sure if it does or not, but we do know it leaks less. That's actually a subject of some debate, so... 3. Okay, so spikes made of different metals steal different abilities. But then the abilities granted also differ depending on the bind point. And hypothetically, if you wanted to steal an Allomantic ability from a Misting, then you could only take the one that they actually have. But steel simply 'steals physical Allomancy.' Does this mean that the only way to get the ability to burn pewter is to skewer a Thug with a steel spike and then insert it into only the correct bind point? So if you accidentally miss and spike the wrong spot, nothing happens? Or can you actually transmute one form of physical Allomancy into another by changing bind points? Basically, if anyone has some hidden treasure trove of Hemalurgic theory, I would like to know. Ah, no. The bind point does determine what is stolen; otherwise, you are stabbing someone with a piece of metal for no reason. Hidden trove of Hemalurgic theory I don't have, but we in the Dark Alley do have spiked cookies. 4. This last one is just guess on my part that I think is true: Zane's spike granted him increased power with steel, right? That would explain why he was able to pull off a controlled Push.Correct. Increased Allomantic strength and finesse. It's not necessary though - Kelsier could do it (he was also nearly a savant. Kelsier was really good with Iron and Steel). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 2. Yes, but the loss of power, when not in contact with blood, slows over time. There is no decay when the spike is in someone. In Vins case, it granted just enough bronze,paired with her already powerful allomancy to pierce most copperclouds. 3.No, the bind points have to be correct, although there are many for humans. 4. Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 1. I imagine that this has somewhat to do with the Shardholders filtering the Intent a bit, Ati didn't want to be evil he was just warped by his Shards intent so I imagine that allowed him a certain amount of leeway with seemingly going against the intent in order to bring about greater ruin. Leras meanwhile may have simply not been able to rationalize destryoing things with the intent of preserving them, I suppose the other point is that if you preserve something you can always destroy it later, once somethings destroyed it's difficult and in a lot of cases impossible to put it back together.2. I don't believe so, I'm relatively certain it keeps decaying once the piece of spiritweb is no longer attached to a living spirit. I think that Hemalurgic decay is much less rapid than we've been led to believe but I also think we have WoB that it reaches a minimum threshold, I imagine it as asymptotically approaching zero so it would still provide some power which may be enough to pierce copperclouds.3. Yeah you need the correct bindpoint and intent, transmuting powers like that definitely shouldn't be possible just through bindpoint placement although I wouldn't be surprised if there were some way to do it with perhaps an Atium spike.4. I'm not entirely sure if we ever got a WoB on it but yes that's the commonly believed theory on his pushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 1. When power leaks from a spike, it just goes back to the Shardholder. Power cannot be destroyed or created. There's no "ruining" going on by letting a spike decay. 2. We don't know why Vin's earring didn't decay like mad while she kept it out of her ear. I asked Brandon during his AMA today, but didn't get an answer. 3. Doesn't have to be steel. Atium can steal every ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 RE: Vin's earring. I've been wondering if select Spikes (like Vin's earring) had maintained a charge because Ruin was maintaining the Investment in the metal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shattered Posted March 13, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 1. When power leaks from a spike, it just goes back to the Shardholder. Power cannot be destroyed or created. There's no "ruining" going on by letting a spike decay. 2. We don't know why Vin's earring didn't decay like mad while she kept it out of her ear. I asked Brandon during his AMA today, but didn't get an answer. 3. Doesn't have to be steel. Atium can steal every ability. I was just citing it as an example to keep things simple. Hemalurgy is painfully complex, even for Brandon's magic systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 RE: Vin's earring. I've been wondering if select Spikes (like Vin's earring) had maintained a charge because Ruin was maintaining the Investment in the metal. This is a good thought, Atium spikes decay less so it's certainly possible that a direct infusion of investiture would help minimize decay, might be worth adding to the list of questions to ask Brandon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Well if it is possible to "power all three systems" with any shard then direct infusion must actually do something right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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