snote Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 (I searched and read through some topics a bit to see if this was discussed but couldn't find one. If I am mistaken, please let me know. I don't want to steal credit for anything.)Okay, the main reason I think this, is because of the WoR Prologue. While Jasnah is walking through the Palace, she sees two goons and Darkness. As she describes the scar on his cheek. Before she see's him though, she hears one of the guys with him talking to the other, who says, "I don’t like this. What we’ve done was wrong. That creature carries my lord’s own Blade. We shouldn’t have let him keep it"To which Jasnah thinks,[....They were ambassadors from the West. Including the Azish man with the white scar on his cheek....]We have been told in a WoB that one of the Heralds came back for their Honor Blade and they have a total of seven. (I think that means left in Shinovar. Taln's, Szeth's, the one who came back for theirs. This isn't expressly stated but it is likely.) So, the rest of the Heralds forsook their Honor blades to hear Syl tell it, they are less powerful than the Nahal bond. They required more Stormlight to perform their tasks and at least one order's spren can change their shape, plus likely form Shardplate.Those are some pretty outstanding perks, when you think about it. Which means that if the, once god-like, Herald were forced to make a choice between remaining as some ordinary, possibly returned to the mortal coil, and near useless human or regaining the power from their Honorblade. The one they gave up after the shattering of the Oathpact. They would go back and grab up their sword, with the quicky-quick.I don't honestly have much proof of this but I think it might have been Jezrien that went back. Which might explain his drinking and him grabbing it back up might have caused the "Heralding" of the Desolation. (This theory is obviously contingent on Szeth having the Skybreaker Sword and information from a WoB that states the Heralds leaving Damnation is, at least part of, the catalyst for a Desolation. If memory serves mind you.) Which I conclude Jez did in order to take the burden off of Taln. During the WoK prologue Jez is said to still seem kingly and regal even after all this time. (I have a head-canon that Jez is actually Nohadon but I will save you all from that one, for now.) and I have a feeling that Taln wouldn't sit through 4,500 years of torture, just to give up the ghost at some random point. I mean, just think about it. If you can make it that long, you're kinda good forever. What's gonna change or happen after all that time that hasn't happened already a few hundred times. Plus your mind would have to be so disconnected from reality by that point that you're not even registering the pain and torture. Hence his bat-poop-insane behavior in WoR, he doesn't honestly even know what's in his head and what's being said out loud. That is a pretty good sign he has completely broken his mind off from his body. Just a theory mind you but it makes sense to me.Nahl doesn't have his Honorblade anymore. So the quote given by his henchman really points at Szeth holding the blade for the Skybreaker's power set. We know that they share a surge with Windrunners. In the case of Shallan and Jasnah's shared power, transformation, they can both enter Shadesmar and soulcast. Not in the exact same way or to the exact same degree but the similarity is such that nothing Szeth does would be impossible for a person manipulating the "Gravitation" surge. Who said the two orders shared power had to have a different effect? I know the Skybreakers have a surge the windrunners do not and vice versa. It isn't clear if there are any things that Szeth and Kaladin do differently, in regards to their surgebinding abilities. I know Kaladin uses that little 'glownut'™ fall breaking method around three or so times yet we have never seen Szeth use it. To be clear, I'm talking about when Kal falls and shoots out a donut of stormlight to break his fall. Like in WoK when he cuts the rope after Syl's request and then again in WoR after his conversation with Syl where she tells him to fly out of the cavern and show the world his what he can do. It's right after he learns to use the lashing to change orientation. (Full lashing? I really don't think it's reverse... damnation it. I can't remember and this is just getting out of hand in it's length. So I should just shut up, or google the God forsaken thing and scrap all this text.... yeah, I'm not going to do that...thank you so much for reading all this.)
galendo Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 I think you're overthinking this a bit. Assuming the Ars Arcanum in the back of the books is correct, the Windrunners have the "gravity goes this way now" power and the "stick these two things together very strongly" power. I don't have a quote handy, but I'm pretty certain Szeth uses the second ability during some fights. 2
Lord Pifferdoo he/him Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Szeth definitely uses all Lashings. Plus Syl tells Kal that it's pretty much the Windrunner blade that Szeth was using (at least, during that fight, and I doubt Szeth would switch out his blades)
snote Posted March 10, 2015 Author Posted March 10, 2015 I think you're overthinking this a bit. Assuming the Ars Arcanum in the back of the books is correct, the Windrunners have the "gravity goes this way now" power and the "stick these two things together very strongly" power. I don't have a quote handy, but I'm pretty certain Szeth uses the second ability during some fights. From Stromlight.wikia.com - "Adhesion -The Surge of Pressure and Vacuum. This is the Surge used to perform Full Lashings, binding an object onto another; used by Windrunners and Bondsmiths." See, it clearly states you're correct man, get your facts together before shooting me down! I mean, come on... wait... /sigh, crap... Since we DO NOT KNOW the exact ability of the Skybreakers yet. I am going to hold out hope that my theory "might" be true still. Though with much less weight and certainty as I did before. I don't specifically remember a "Full Lashing" form Szeth, but I know he states what they are, which is pretty weird for him to do, if it isn't a power he possess. Unless, my theory is correct and he states it as just something he was taught during training with the blade and it's a red herring, But... in all likelihood, you're just right about this and I extrapolated a lot of ideas from a single sentence. Though, it still begs the question, who was this dude's "lord"? The way he speaks, it really feels like he is referring to Szeth and the blade he has as his "Lord's". Does that mean he is a pawn of Jezrian? The supposed drunk at the "Treaty Signing Celebration?" If that's the case and they came with Naln, I fear two extremely powerful Heralds working together, to prevent the reforming of the Knights Radiant, by going as far as to hunt them down and kill them, is a bad time for our intrepid heroes. Szeth definitely uses all Lashings. Plus Syl tells Kal that it's pretty much the Windrunner blade that Szeth was using (at least, during that fight, and I doubt Szeth would switch out his blades) During the Kal v Szeth fight the only time it's mentioned is when Szeth says, "What are you?" and Kaladin replies, "Windrunner, same as you!" (An assumption based on what Kaladin sees Szeth doing.) Syl, when explaining what she "thinks' Szeth's sword is says, "I think this is one of the Honorblades. Given to mankind by the Almighty. With it, someone can do what you do but without the...checks. Take care of it, this is a treasure." (This is a paraphrase to be sure, but the gist is absolutely on par.) In my theory it explains why the blade does what it does. We are told in the WoK prologue that Honorblades disappear when their wielder dies. A WoB says they can't be "bonded" but they can be "given" to others. Almost like the owner has to will the sword to be posesed by someone other than themselves. Like when a Shardblade is recalled in reverse or someone may pick up and use the sword as long as the "owner" doesn't object or something more nebulous than that. Thanks, both of you, for taking the time to read and respond. I listen to the audio books for this story on repeat daily. It is a really good way to pass the time at work and it helps me sleep to have a story to engage my mind so I don't let my thoughts run wild. So, I know the books better than I probably should. So, when I hear a little passed over phrase that you wouldn't notice until you're on your 36th read through, I try to extrapolate what I can from it. Then, if I feel there aren't any holes I'm noticing in it. I post it here. So, hopefully it will be vetted by those who see the story differently than I do and can shed further light on it. It is nice to have this community here to respectfully disagree with me, without resorting to immaturity. So, thanks again, and sorry about the length of my original post and replies.
Arondell Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 I don't specifically remember a "Full Lashing" form Szeth, but I know he states what they are, which is pretty weird for him to do, if it isn't a power he possess. Unless, my theory is correct and he states it as just something he was taught during training with the blade and it's a red herring, But... in all likelihood, you're just right about this and I extrapolated a lot of ideas from a single sentence. From the prologue to Way of Kings during the assassination of king Gavilar. The Stormlight held the door in the frame with the strength of a hundred arms. A Full Lashing bound objects together, holding them fast until the Stormlight ran out. It took longer to create—and drained Stormlight far more quickly—than a Basic Lashing. The door handle shook, and then the wood began to crack as the guards threw their weight against it, one man calling for an axe. Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 26-27). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.
hoser he/him Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Okay. I have a pet peeve about people using "begs the question" when they mean "asks the question." Until this former misuse became common, they had opposite meanings. From ...Though, it still begs the question, who was this dude's "lord"? The way he speaks, it really feels like he is referring to Szeth and the blade he has as his "Lord's". Does that mean he is a pawn of Jezrian? The supposed drunk at the "Treaty Signing Celebration?" If that's the case and they came with Naln, I fear two extremely powerful Heralds working together, to prevent the reforming of the Knights Radiant, by going as far as to hunt them down and kill them, is a bad time for our intrepid heroes.... Until Nin's ambiguous statement upon learning who that the young thief had been named the Azish emperor, it was widely assumed on these boards that the "drunk" from the prologue was Ishar. Given that we know that Szeth's sword had been Jezrien's, and Jezrien was the king of the Heralds, that question is easily answered. The concern that the presumed Kalak shows for his "lord" and the "drunk" not resembling Jezrien suggest to me that the question being begged is whether the "drunk" is Jezrien. Edited March 10, 2015 by hoser 1
AerionBFII he/him Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 The way i always pictured Jez's Honorblade was a temporary loan. It would work for Szeth and he could use it but Jez could summon the blade back at will. 1
laxrulz777 he/him Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Since we DO NOT KNOW the exact ability of the Skybreakers yet. I am going to hold out hope that my theory "might" be true still. Though with much less weight and certainty as I did before. We actually do know all the surges from process of elimination and the glyphs and diagrams in the book. Skybreakers are Gravitation and Division. Here's the full list: Knight Chapter Surges Windrunners Adhesion, Gravity Skybreakers Gravity, Division Dustbringers Division, Abrasion Edgedancers Abrasion, Progression Truthwatcher Progression, Illumination Lightweavers Illumination, Tranformation Elsecaller Transformation, Transportation Willshapers Transportation, Cohesion Stonewards Cohesion, Tension Bondsmiths Tension, Adhesion
snote Posted March 12, 2015 Author Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) From the prologue to Way of Kings during the assassination of king Gavilar. The Stormlight held the door in the frame with the strength of a hundred arms. A Full Lashing bound objects together, holding them fast until the Stormlight ran out. It took longer to create—and drained Stormlight far more quickly—than a Basic Lashing. The door handle shook, and then the wood began to crack as the guards threw their weight against it, one man calling for an axe. Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 26-27). Macmillan. Kindle Edition. Fine then, be that way! Just ruin my ideas with your..."facts"! ...stupid internet... won't let me have any fun....I wonder if anyone can read this. No, seriously, thanks. I really liked this idea but it's turning out to be a failed thought experiment. Which was why I posted it here. If it's wrong it's wrong. I need eyes besides mine, meaning people outside of my mind, to tell me the things I'm missing. So, really, thank you. We actually do know all the surges from process of elimination and the glyphs and diagrams in the book. Skybreakers are Gravitation and Division. Here's the full list: Knight Chapter Surges Windrunners Adhesion, Gravity Skybreakers Gravity, Division Dustbringers Division, Abrasion Edgedancers Abrasion, Progression Truthwatcher Progression, Illumination Lightweavers Illumination, Tranformation Elsecaller Transformation, Transportation Willshapers Transportation, Cohesion Stonewards Cohesion, Tension Bondsmiths Tension, Adhesion You're right, we do know the names of each surge and which order gets what. What we've not learned is what each specific surge does. There hasn't been any Skybreaker use their non-gravitation surge where we can see yet. (or their gravitation surge for that matter. We're just assuming they're the same.) At least not one that we have noticed anyway. I don't think we've seen the majority of the surges in action. That's what I am referring to. Not the name but the action. The way i always pictured Jez's Honorblade was a temporary loan. It would work for Szeth and he could use it but Jez could summon the blade back at will. Honestly, that's the same theory I had as part of this theory. That Szeth had Naln's blade, who was letting Szeth use it because of the work he was doing. Then, if he ever wanted it back, he would just summon it. Though, to hear Brandon say that you can't (or at least couldn't before someone added a gem stone I assume) bond an Honorblade. I don't know how that will work. Okay. I have a pet peeve about people using "begs the question" when they mean "asks the question." Until this former misuse became common, they had opposite meanings. Until Nin's ambiguous statement upon learning who that the young thief had been named the Azish emperor, it was widely assumed on these boards that the "drunk" from the prologue was Ishar. Given that we know that Szeth's sword had been Jezrien's, and Jezrien was the king of the Heralds, that question is easily answered. The concern that the presumed Kalak shows for his "lord" and the "drunk" not resembling Jezrien suggest to me that the question being begged is whether the "drunk" is Jezrien. I never got the impression that the man Jasnah overheard was one of the Heralds. I can see Jez being the drunk especially after the comment "...if he ever stops drooling." From Naln, in the Lift interlude. I was in one of the threads talking about that very topic recently. I am on board for it. Since it really is just speculation. (Just as my theory clearly is.) I wasn't thinking about it in terms of my idea. Thanks for the insight though. You make good points. As far as "begs the question" I don't live in the time period you're referring to. I have only ever heard it used in the way in which I used it. As in "This question is begging to be asked." I didn't mean to say "asks the question" in my opinion that would not have made any sense in context. You and everyone else who read it knew the exact meaning of what I said. Which, is how words work. We use symbols and sounds to convey a predetermined set of representations we call "words". We connect different words to different meanings and concepts. Then combine those into phrases that sometimes change over the years. Whether it's through misunderstandings, misuse, or sometimes even through sarcasm and hyperbole. Having a different culture enter the area, who might connect similar sounding words with words in their own langue, could affect how we talk. Etymology is really interesting. It's like when someone is starting to fail at a task, I have heard, "Man, he's 'floundering'!" when the original word was "Foundering" which is an equestrian term for having weak hooves and feet caused by some illness. Does it distract me when I hear it as 'flounder'? Sure, sometimes. Am I pedantic enough to say something about it? Nope, because I knew exactly what they meant and just because it's not the prescribed way of saying something. It certainly doesn't mean they're wrong. Which means the words worked exactly the intended way. To criticize that would only be to try and make myself either sound smarter or to make that person look dumb. Neither of which are polite things... so I will continue to use 'begs the question" just as I did here. I'll come back and let you know if someone fails to understand the meaning. Edited March 12, 2015 by snote
natc Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 Well there's the one paragraph somewhere in the two books I've lost track of where someone sees scorch marks on the battlefield and just assumes that there were dustbringers here in the earlier battle, so with their division-abrasion combo we can start spouting wild theories of how they can burn things with just those powers and infer Division from there. The Soulcasting orders seem consistent with their soulcasting power, and surgebinding fabrials exist, so the powers should be reasonably similar between orders. Theoretically. Just the name already implies they can fly and break things anyway. We've seen Adhesion, Gravitation, Abrasion, Transportation (kinda), Transformation, and Illumination. Giving Transportation half a point for occurring once without explanation in the epilogue that's 5.5 out of 10. It's on the minimum level of majority I guess.
Moogle Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) We've seen Adhesion, Gravitation, Abrasion, Transportation (kinda), Transformation, and Illumination. Giving Transportation half a point for occurring once without explanation in the epilogue that's 5.5 out of 10. It's on the minimum level of majority I guess. To add to your list: we've also seen Progression (Lift growing seeds and healing with it). I'd also suggest that the Oathgates are giant Transportation fabrials, so I suspect we've seen that more than "kinda" too. What we haven't seen is Tension, Cohesion, and Division. We know Cohesion is supposed to do things like let you put your hand onto a table and leave a handprint like it was wet cement (paraphrased), and Tension is supposed to make things stiff, and we can guess that Division has to do with burning/exploding things as per Kalak's comment on the Dustbringers. Edited March 12, 2015 by Moogle
Localconfusi0n Posted March 12, 2015 Posted March 12, 2015 There hasn't been any Skybreaker use their non-gravitation surge where we can see yet. (or their gravitation surge for that matter. We're just assuming they're the same.) *Emphasis mine Well we do have a WoB (i never actually look for the quotes but i know ive seen it. cause im lazy) That "when we see Skybreakers using their Gravitation surge it will be very similar to what we've seen from Windrunners" obviously thats not exact, but it makes me think that they can fly (fall) just like a Windrunner.
Patrick Star Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 WoB stated that the 3 Lashings were specific to Windrunners. Skybreakers may be able to do 1 or 2, but not all 3. I'm not sure where that WoB is, though.
natc Posted March 14, 2015 Posted March 14, 2015 WoB stated that the 3 Lashings were specific to Windrunners. Skybreakers may be able to do 1 or 2, but not all 3. I'm not sure where that WoB is, though. Well they obviously can't full lash without adhesion. Basic and reverse are within the realm of possibilities. Full lashing is such a misnamed power.
snote Posted April 4, 2015 Author Posted April 4, 2015 So, what you all are saying is that my theory should be considered factual. I am dead right and all my points hold up under scrutiny. Thanks! Sarcasm hurts me more than it does you.
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