Wor Ars Arcanum [Fourth Roshar Magic System]

[laxrulz777]

I was doing some research this weekend and came across this (note, I've shaved out the irrelevant stuff to avoid reproducing giant swaths of the Ars Arcanum).

 

[A chart that shows the following columns: Number, Gemstone, Essence, Body Focus, Soulcasting Properties (note: not Surges), Primary / Secondary Divine Attributes]

 

A brief summary of that chart then the following

 

"Ancient scholars also placed the 10 orders of KR... alongside the Heralds... with one of the... Essences"

 

"I'm not certain yet how the 10 levels of Voidbinding or its cousin the Old Magic fit into this paradigm, if indeed they can. My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric then the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something else entirely different."

 

The author (whom I think most people think is Khriss now) reveals a lot in this very dense section

 

A) Voidbinding and Old Magic are "cousins" (implied but not explicitly stated is that Surgebinding is also a "cousin")

They state with certainty that there are 10 "levels" of Voidbindings

C) They suspect (but imply that it's not guaranteed) that they'll fit within the same "paradigm" as Surgebinding (note: the only text above refers to the Knights Radiant and the Essences... It makes no reference, at this point in the text, to the surges or that the KR had two surges each and seems to focus heavily on the Essences... capital E).

D) The author believes that there is something more "esoteric" than Voidbinding (dictionary definition of esoteric: "intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.")

E) The author believes that it COULD be but likely isn't the Old Magic (implying that the Old Magic at least meets the definition of "esoteric" or MIGHT meet that definition... we don't know why the author believes it's not the Old Magic)

F) Implies that Realmatic theory would require this "esoteric" magic system but (and this is important) that requirement is not based on a number (so there's nothing REQUIRING four magic systems... that's not what the author says and, in fact, the author leaves open the possibility that there's three).

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Of particular interest, what's the relevance of the Essences (which we've collectively been ignoring). In order they are: Zephyr, Vapor, Spark, Lucentia, Pulp, Blood, Tallow, Foil, Talus, Sinew. "Talus" and Lucentia" on this list are really interesting. In fact, this whole list is pretty weird. These don't strike me as the "fundamental building blocks" of a planet. I'm actually intrigued by this WoB:

 

Q. Can I ask you about the body of a Shard in the physical realm? About the different states of matter, what determines the state of matter that they are in? Because I’ve read the relevant sections carefully, haven’t noticed much about temperature difference.
A. The idea for me working on this is that they transcend, they permeate everything. They permeate all life on all the realms. And that there are manifestations of them that leak out, and it’s kind of like they appear there in the various states. When you say that you’ve got the gas, you’ve got the liquid, you’ve got the solid: but you’ve also got inside of you, inside of that plant, like they’re everywhere. And so what determines it? In my head it’s just like when some of that power permeates, some of it distils, just like water. There’s some water in the air, there’s some that freezes: that’s temperature. But it’s not always temperature whether it’s in the air, or whether it’s falling. Imagine a spiritual version of humidity, that is influenced by what’s happening on the Spiritual Realm and the Cognitive, and that’s what you get.

 

 

I wonder if that's a list of the various ways that that Shards can manifest?

 

Also, the implications for the fourth magic system on Roshar are vast. A) What is it and (perhaps more importantly) what makes the author believe that one exists (and why does it have to be "esoteric" and/or why isn't the Old Magic "it").

[ROSHtaFARian2.0]

Hmmm, I have no thoughts on a possible fourth magic system, but laying things out like this gives me some ideas on what the Old Magic actually was.  A lot of people have previously speculated that the Old Magic had something to do with the Nightwatcher perhaps, but with it described here as a cousin to Voidbinding, and with WOR suggesting that Voidbinding is what the Parshendi do once corrupted by the Everstorm in their forms....perhaps the Old Magic was the magic the Parshendi used BEFORE Odium's spren turned them into Voidbringers as part of his cycle of Desolations?  We've seen the Parshendi speak of old forms now lost, and some of those are their Voidbringer forms like stormform...but what if some of them are even older than that?  Many of us have long assumed the Parshendi predate humanity (and thus Odium) as inhabitants of Roshar, and perhaps the Old Magic refers to a time before humanity....a time when it was the only magic and Parshendi were the only people.  And then Odium's influence and investiture altered it, corrupted it, and the Old Magic became Voidbinding, and thus they qualify as 'cousins'.

[Curiosity]

In response to B question: 

Recall that on Scadrial, you have three magic systems: One for Preservation, one for Ruin, and one as an equilibrium of sorts: Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy, respectively. There are three Shards on Roshar, so there will be at least four magic systems, possibly seven. 

 

I personally see this Ars Arcanum as an indicator that there probably aren't seven magic systems on Roshar (three normal, three equilibrium, and one meta-equilibrium), but rather only four (Honor's, Cultivation's, Odium's, and the equilibrium magic). This probably means Surgebinding is of Honor, the Old Magic is of Cultivation, Voidbinding is of Odium, and the fourth esoteric one (which remains mysterious) is the Feruchemy analog. 

 

P.S. Nice  B)'s

[Moogle]

Recall that on Scadrial, you have three magic systems: One for Preservation, one for Ruin, and one as an equilibrium of sorts: Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy, respectively. There are three Shards on Roshar, so there will be at least four magic systems, possibly seven.

 

Not true, necessarily. Sel has one system despite having two Shards.

 

@OP:

 

We have this WoB:

Rhandric

How many magic systems are there on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

It depends on your definition. Is Windrunning its own magic system, or is it a division of a larger magic system? Are the ten different Surges each their own magic system, or are they all the same one?

Rhandric

If you assume the surges are all one.

Brandon Sanderson

Well then you would have Surgebinding, and the Old Magic, those are two at least, and there are things that are not explained in those at all, and how do you count creating fabrials? Is that a science and not a magic? Is that its own magic system?

Rhandric

It's a science, because anyone can do it.

Brandon Sanderson

So Awakening is not a magic, then? Awakening's a science? Because anyone can Awaken if they get the breath.

Rhandric

That's something that stood out to me, because in all your other magic systems that we've seen so far there has to be some sort of snapping to occur, and that's unique, because- [...] Is there an active magic system on Threnody?

Brandon Sanderson

Threnody has a non Shard-based...it depends on what you call a magic system. Do spirits coming back from the dead count as magic? It's science to them, but, it's goofy science.

(source)

 

And another one:

rags

You have told us there are more than 30 magical systems on Roshar. I am assuming there are 10 surgebindings and 10 voidbindings. Do the next 10 belong to another such classification? If yes, can you give us the name for it.

Brandon Sanderson

Fabrials are part of it.

(source)

 

And finally:

BenFoley

You have stated in your blog that Mistborn had three magic systems (Allomancy, Feruchemy and Hemurology) and also that The Way of Kings will have upwards of 20. For comparison, how many magic systems would you say the Wheel of Time series has? Two (One Power and the True Power)? How do you classify other abilities (not necessarily related to the One Power or True Power) such as Dreamwalking, viewing the Pattern, Wolfbrother-hoodness, and changing 'luck' or chance? Would you classify these abilities as a magic system in and of themselves? Has your chance to see the background material Robert Jordan left changed how you view these abilities?

Brandon Sanderson

This kind of gets sticky, as it's all up to semantics. Really, you could say that Mistborn had a different magic system for each type of Misting. But at the same time, you could argue that something like X-Men—with huge numbers of powers—all falls under the same blanked 'magic system.' And take Hemalurgy in Mistborn 3—is it a new magic system, or just a reinterpretation of Allomancy and Feruchemy?

So what do I mean by twenty or thirty magic systems in Kings? Hard to say, as I don't want to give spoilers. I have groupings of abilities that have to deal with a certain theme. Transformation, Travel, Pressure and Gravity, that sort of thing. By one way of counting, there are thirty of these—though by another way of grouping them together, there are closer to ten.

(source)

 

The Old Magic, as far as I can tell from WoR, is what the Nightwatcher does and it isn't so much a system as the Nightwatcher being a super-powerful spren/Cognitive Shadow and so getting some expanded powers. Given the Ars Arcanum author's notes, it seems there's just three "main" human-usable magics, which are Surgebinding/Voidbinding/the "esoteric" system, and they all use the ten Surges like Scadrials' magics all use the sixteen metals (and god metals).

 

---

 

There's a theory that I helped with called Intent Meshing, which you might be interested in as well. It was written pre-WoR, and I no longer believe the third system is related to the Old Magic, but it has stood the test of time so far.

 

It predicts Roshar's systems to likely be H+C (Surgebinding), O (Voidbinding), and H+C+O (the system with "esoteric" abilities), with a list of caveats as long as WoR.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Moogle

[Kelek's Breath]

My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric then the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something else entirely different."

I am going to take a wild stab and say that maybe this esoteric magic is related to the specific abilities that some Radiants are exhibiting, like Shallan's mnemonic ability or Jasnah's sense of direction. They don't seem tied to surgebinding or their spren, but they do seem magical in nature. These abilities certainly are esoteric (private, internal, restricted to few).

The question is, why would they only be limited to surgbinders?

(Unless the boon/curse Nightwatcher thing, is tied in and was a way to grant any Rosharan with these abilities before Cultivation became disinterested, or before Honor died and the whole magic system fell apart).

[laxrulz777]

Hmmm, I have no thoughts on a possible fourth magic system, but laying things out like this gives me some ideas on what the Old Magic actually was.  A lot of people have previously speculated that the Old Magic had something to do with the Nightwatcher perhaps, but with it described here as a cousin to Voidbinding, and with WOR suggesting that Voidbinding is what the Parshendi do once corrupted by the Everstorm in their forms....perhaps the Old Magic was the magic the Parshendi used BEFORE Odium's spren turned them into Voidbringers as part of his cycle of Desolations?  We've seen the Parshendi speak of old forms now lost, and some of those are their Voidbringer forms like stormform...but what if some of them are even older than that?  Many of us have long assumed the Parshendi predate humanity (and thus Odium) as inhabitants of Roshar, and perhaps the Old Magic refers to a time before humanity....a time when it was the only magic and Parshendi were the only people.  And then Odium's influence and investiture altered it, corrupted it, and the Old Magic became Voidbinding, and thus they qualify as 'cousins'.

There's some logic to this. Particularly if Moogle's Intent Meshing holds water. I dont' think Old Magic = Voidbinding (mostly because the AAA doens't think that and, I think, that we can trust her gut as being correct or at least mostly correct).

 

In response to B question: 

Recall that on Scadrial, you have three magic systems: One for Preservation, one for Ruin, and one as an equilibrium of sorts: Allomancy, Hemalurgy, and Feruchemy, respectively. There are three Shards on Roshar, so there will be at least four magic systems, possibly seven. 

 

I personally see this Ars Arcanum as an indicator that there probably aren't seven magic systems on Roshar (three normal, three equilibrium, and one meta-equilibrium), but rather only four (Honor's, Cultivation's, Odium's, and the equilibrium magic). This probably means Surgebinding is of Honor, the Old Magic is of Cultivation, Voidbinding is of Odium, and the fourth esoteric one (which remains mysterious) is the Feruchemy analog. 

 

P.S. Nice  B)'s

Two shards on Sel that have produced either 1, 4 or 5 magic systems (depending on how you count them). I'm not sure there's any way you could categorize them as 3. Yeah, didn't realize that the B's would come across that way... glad someone figured it out

 

I am going to take a wild stab and say that maybe this esoteric magic is related to the specific abilities that some Radiants are exhibiting, like Shallan's mnemonic ability or Jasnah's sense of direction. They don't seem tied to surgebinding or their spren, but they do seem magical in nature. These abilities certainly are esoteric (private, internal, restricted to few).

The question is, why would they only be limited to surgbinders?

(Unless the boon/curse Nightwatcher thing, is tied in and was a way to grant any Rosharan with these abilities before Cultivation became disinterested, or before Honor died and the whole magic system fell apart).

 

This doesn't feel "right" to me. I think it's more likely that the inherent abilities of the Radiants are either 1) Abilities unique to the melding of the individual surges or 2) People that already have those abilities are more likely to gravitate to being those types of Radiants.

[laxrulz777]

 

There's a theory that I helped with called Intent Meshing, which you might be interested in as well. It was written pre-WoR, and I no longer believe the third system is related to the Old Magic, but it has stood the test of time so far.

 

It predicts Roshar's systems to likely be H+C (Surgebinding), O (Voidbinding), and H+C+O (the system with "esoteric" abilities), with a list of caveats as long as WoR.

 

I think there's some merit to this. It gives enough literary license that Brandon can do what he wants while also providing a consistent framework. It does get stressed when you consider things like Hemallurgy and this quote:

 

"On a broader level, is hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works."

 

Which implies that the worlds themselves have magical systems and the Shards work through them and allow the locals to use them (incidentally, this is how the shardless worlds have powers but those powers are things that Humans can't actively use because they lack investiture from a Shard).

 

This clearly seems to state that the three powers existed PRIOR to the shards. So why would the AAA author believe there has to be a 3rd (or 4th) system? It could have something to do with the Cognitive/Spiritual/Physical realm. Maybe magic always touches all three but the Spren based magic on Roshar seems to be entirely about the Spiritual/Cognitive (this doesn't feel right to me because things like Gravitation seem to clearly be physical... but if you consider that it all comes from a Spren bonding then MAYBE that isn't fully the case??)

 

I think it's time to come up with a more cohesive Realmatic theory on this stuff. I'd like to see us align with AAA (I kind of think Brandon has been coy/obfuscating with some of his quotes... saying things like "There's upwards of 30 magic systems" on Roshar clearly contradicts the most authoritative voice in the books... the AAA). She clearly thinks of them in subsets and that there are four subsets.

 

No one has yet commented on the link to the Essences either. Do you agree that that seems to be her thrust when she speaks of "this paradigm"? Could they be the various ways in which shards manifest? What other type of significance could they have?

[natc]

If gravitation surges do function by manipulating the spiritual gravitational bond between objects then it successfully dodges physical too.

Hmm. The magic systems being a result of the planets themselves and the shards only fueling them and fudging the occasional detail, that's interesting. Perhaps the position of the planet relative to the rest of the cosmere in the three realms causes an effect on the ease of investiture manifestation/flow occurring in certain ways . . . this is sounding increasingly Asian-inspired somehow, but I can't place my finger on what makes me feel that.

[Moogle]

"On a broader level, is hemalurgy officially dead, then? Or is it still extant in some Ruin-free (but still messy) form? (If it's gone, is there any imbalance since Preservation's magic power is kept and Ruin's isn't?)

Is Hemalurgy dead? No, not at all. It, like the other two powers, was not created by Ruin or Preservation, but by the natural state of the world and its interaction with the gods who created it. It still requires the same method of creation, but very few people are aware of how it works."

 

Which implies that the worlds themselves have magical systems and the Shards work through them and allow the locals to use them (incidentally, this is how the shardless worlds have powers but those powers are things that Humans can't actively use because they lack investiture from a Shard).

 

This clearly seems to state that the three powers existed PRIOR to the shards. So why would the AAA author believe there has to be a 3rd (or 4th) system? It could have something to do with the Cognitive/Spiritual/Physical realm. Maybe magic always touches all three but the Spren based magic on Roshar seems to be entirely about the Spiritual/Cognitive (this doesn't feel right to me because things like Gravitation seem to clearly be physical... but if you consider that it all comes from a Spren bonding then MAYBE that isn't fully the case??)

 

Speculation: I consider that WoB to imply that worlds contribute to the magic system, but are not solely responsible for it. It's a mix of Shards and the planet that shapes the result. For example, Scadrial is a metal-heavy planet, so all resulting magic systems are going to use the sixteen metals. If another Shard went to Nalthis, I'd expect one of the possible new systems to still use Commands. Similarly, if you add another Shard to Sel, I expect any new magics will still be region-locked or at least use symbols.

 

As to Roshar, we do have this:

EHyde

So I'm just gonna run with that right now. Is Surgebinding in general a melding of Honor and Odium ala Feruchemy being in some senses being not directly of Ruin or Preservation?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor and Cultivation is what you mean? Um, there are spren of all three shards. And those spren can work within the bounds of the magic that has already been set up on Roshar.

(source)

 

This suggests that there were non-Shardic systems set up on Roshar which spren now can fit into. I take this to be the equivalent of god metals, personally - the base system involves spren (this system may have arisen due to Adonalsium?), and then you can throw in some pure Shardic power to gain some special effects within that system. Sort of like you can use lerasium in Hemalurgy. But this is speculation.

 

I also note that the non-Shardworlds get magic because of a base level of Investiture:

Question

What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?

Brandon Sanderson

The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.

Question

I'm assuming there is not one there?

Brandon Sanderson

There is not one there.

Question

So it's like a Splintered one from something else?

Brandon Sanderson

No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...

Question

So there is inherent investiture...

Brandon Sanderson

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

(source)

 

---

 

I think it's time to come up with a more cohesive Realmatic theory on this stuff. I'd like to see us align with AAA (I kind of think Brandon has been coy/obfuscating with some of his quotes... saying things like "There's upwards of 30 magic systems" on Roshar clearly contradicts the most authoritative voice in the books... the AAA). She clearly thinks of them in subsets and that there are four subsets.

 

No one has yet commented on the link to the Essences either. Do you agree that that seems to be her thrust when she speaks of "this paradigm"? Could they be the various ways in which shards manifest? What other type of significance could they have?

 

As to the AA: She may be wrong. She also allows for the possibility that the Old Magic is involved with these esoteric abilities, so she's not necessarily saying saying there are four. And by any reasonable stretch, there are more than four "systems" on Roshar - to name one obvious example, fabrial technology. This gets into what Brandon considers tricky definitions.

 

Do you consider fabrial tech a magic system? I sure don't. What about Surgebinding fabrials? Well, maybe. The line gets blurry. And then if you ask why fabrials work, the underlying mechanics that seem to allow spren to do fantastical things with a gemstone/Investiture, and then look at the Nightwatcher's Old Magic... is that one system, despite it being a subsystem, apparently?

 

And what about Shardblades? Those aren't really a magic system. But they sort of are, they're another subset of the power spren have.

 

So I'd take both Brandon and the AAA's word with a heaping pile of salt. I got a headache trying to interpret this, and I don't think it will be very fruitful. My current belief is something like:

• All spren get magical abilities, and you've got a dozen subsystems there, but really they don't get magical abilities, this is just what happens when you mix the three Realms.
• Then you've got three Shard-fueled magic systems.
• Then you've got general Splinter properties (Seons can become Shardblades).
• Then you've potentially got Adonalsium-created systems like Hoid's Lightweaving which may still exist, or maybe they're responsible for spren.
• etc.

Basically, it's a huge mess.

 

As to the Essence idea, I consider the Essences to be fundamentally linked to the surges. Air being Pressure and Gravity, Smoke being Gravity and Division, these things fit together like a glove. The others don't, but we don't know enough about them. Also relating to the Essence idea is the Voidbinding(?) chart at the back of WoK: it has both the Essences and the Surges with a simple transform applied to them, but seems to depict an entirely different magic system.

 

I could see the Essences being similar to the metals of Mistborn, or the regions of Sel. I could see the ten Surges being similar (since WoB has already stated this is so). I could see Essences and Surges being intrinsically linked. Not much to say, here.

[laxrulz777]

What I'm tentatively working on is a heirarchy. Terms are needed for each "step" but it's similar to what you've laid out.

 

Speaking from a purely "literary" standpoint, I doubt that the AAA is flat "wrong" on things. Those are introduced to us as "glossaries" and "indexes". I feel like when the author speaks through the AAA, he's telling us things. I'd be shocked if the narrative part of the Ars Arcanum aren't some of the most heavily edited and carefully crafted sections of the books. So while the AAA COULD be wrong, IF she is then I suspect there's a good reason for it. In this case, I'd be pretty surprised if we found that there was only Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Old Magic and nothing else with no explanation. I would NOT be surprised if we found that there were those three and that, long ago, Adonalsium did something special to Roshar that shortcircuited the formation of the fourth magic. In both cases, the AAA would be wrong but in the first, it would be just a straight factual error while in the other it would lead to a deeper understanding of the realmatic theory (i.e. the important part here might not be WHAT is the "fourth system" but rather WHY does the AAA even think there is?).

 

So the idea that the Essences are linked to the surgest has some validity (Sinew being Tension and Adhesion makes some sense as well if I'm being fair) but it REALLY seems to fall apart when you realize that Lucentia isn't related to Illumination (we obviously don't know what Lucentia is but SURELY it has something to do with Light?). On the other hand, Shallan's experience with Blood sure lines up (Blood is related to Shash / Lightweavers). The fact that Blood (and to a lesser degree Tallow) don't line up with the Illumination oriented chapters makes me think there's something else going on there.

 

What chart are you referring to in WotK? My chart has all the essences but makes no mention of the Surges it whatsoever.

[Blaze1616]

Speaking from a purely "literary" standpoint, I doubt that the AAA is flat "wrong" on things. Those are introduced to us as "glossaries" and "indexes". I feel like when the author speaks through the AAA, he's telling us things. I'd be shocked if the narrative part of the Ars Arcanum aren't some of the most heavily edited and carefully crafted sections of the books. So while the AAA COULD be wrong, IF she is then I suspect there's a good reason for it. In this case, I'd be pretty surprised if we found that there was only Surgebinding, Voidbinding, Old Magic and nothing else with no explanation. I would NOT be surprised if we found that there were those three and that, long ago, Adonalsium did something special to Roshar that shortcircuited the formation of the fourth magic. In both cases, the AAA would be wrong but in the first, it would be just a straight factual error while in the other it would lead to a deeper understanding of the realmatic theory (i.e. the important part here might not be WHAT is the "fourth system" but rather WHY does the AAA even think there is?).

 

The thing you have to remember is that the Ars Arcanum isn't a glossary. It's an in world "journal" of sorts. When we read the AA, we read a notebook that is kept by a Realmatic scientist. As such, there is likely speculation, both true and false, that is involved. We're not reading notes that Brandon thinks we should know. We're reading notes that a scientist feels are important. Things that the character that is the author feels are important. In the way that Szeth was wrong about one of his assertions, or that Sazed was wrong with one of his, the AAA could be wrong too. That being said, I agree with your final statement, I think the question of why the AAA thinks there should be a fourth system is far more important than what the fourth system is.

[laxrulz777]

The thing you have to remember is that the Ars Arcanum isn't a glossary. It's an in world "journal" of sorts. When we read the AA, we read a notebook that is kept by a Realmatic scientist. As such, there is likely speculation, both true and false, that is involved. We're not reading notes that Brandon thinks we should know. We're reading notes that a scientist feels are important. Things that the character that is the author feels are important. In the way that Szeth was wrong about one of his assertions, or that Sazed was wrong with one of his, the AAA could be wrong too. That being said, I agree with your final statement, I think the question of why the AAA thinks there should be a fourth system is far more important than what the fourth system is.

 

I understand the narrative backdrop for the Ars Arcanum. My point was that, Sanderson doesn't want people to HAVE to get involved in the Cosmere stuff to enjoy the books. Functionally, those sections are very much a glossary. It's absolutely how a first time reader would read them (it's what my brother thought they were for a long time) and it's the literary function they serve. Given that, I suspect that Brandon would not create a falsehood in there without having a strong literary reason for it. He wouldn't just have Khriss be "wrong" just for the sake of being wrong. If she is wrong about something, it's going to be for a very good reason. So where Moogle says we should take her with a "big grain of salt", I think we should be VERY intrigued by things like, "My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric then the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something else entirely different."

 

That sentence (which is the one that made me write this post in the first place) is definitely Brandon trying to tell us something. It's our job to figure out which part is important

 

Note: not trying to argue with the long term vets here either (I realize I'm new)...

[Blaze1616]

Note: not trying to argue with the long term vets here either (I realize I'm new)...

 

Bah! The wonderful thing about this site is that no one treats others like "long term vets." Just people who have been members on the site longer. You could easily be more knowledgable than me (I'm still relatively new, not even a full year), or Moogle, or Kurkistan, or Chaos, or whomever. No need to feel bad, or apologize, or make notes like that.    Just be respectful and willing to accept that your theories might be wrong.

 

 

I understand the narrative backdrop for the Ars Arcanum. My point was that, Sanderson doesn't want people to HAVE to get involved in the Cosmere stuff to enjoy the books. Functionally, those sections are very much a glossary. It's absolutely how a first time reader would read them (it's what my brother thought they were for a long time) and it's the literary function they serve. Given that, I suspect that Brandon would not create a falsehood in there without having a strong literary reason for it. He wouldn't just have Khriss be "wrong" just for the sake of being wrong. If she is wrong about something, it's going to be for a very good reason. So where Moogle says we should take her with a "big grain of salt", I think we should be VERY intrigued by things like, "My research suggests that, indeed, there should be another series of abilities that is even more esoteric then the Voidbindings. Perhaps the Old Magic fits into those, though I am beginning to suspect that it is something else entirely different."

 

That sentence (which is the one that made me write this post in the first place) is definitely Brandon trying to tell us something. It's our job to figure out which part is important

 

It definitely is an interesting statement. But the fact that it's a small statement in the AA makes me think it could definitely be wrong. Though I understand your point that anyone not "in the know" would refer to the AA as an appendix, people who aren't "in the know" probably won't fine comb the statements written there like you have. Moreover, in a year, they won't remember such a small thing in the grand scheme of things. Ad for the rare few who do remember, they'll come to places like here to find out what happened, and will become "in the know." So unless Brandon makes it a big deal by devoting more than one sentence or two out of thousands from the book, I wouldn't say it is any less likely to be false than Sazed's or Szeth's false beliefs.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Blaze1616

[laxrulz777]

Bah! The wonderful thing about this site is that no one treats others like "long term vets." Just people who have been members on the site longer. You could easily be more knowledgable than me (I'm still relatively new, not even a full year), or Moogle, or Kurkistan, or Chaos, or whomever. No need to feel bad, or apologize, or make notes like that.    Just be respectful and willing to accept that your theories might be wrong.

Thanks. I'm always tentative when getting involved in a new community online. The "rules" and "ettiquette" are rarely as obvious as people think they should be.

 

 

It definitely is an interesting statement. But the fact that it's a small statement in the AA makes me think it could definitely be wrong. Though I understand your point that anyone not "in the know" would refer to the AA as an appendix, people who aren't "in the know" probably won't fine comb the statements written there like you have. Moreover, in a year, they won't remember such a small thing in the grand scheme of things. Ad for the rare few who do remember, they'll come to places like here to find out what happened, and will become "in the know." So unless Brandon makes it a big deal by devoting more than one sentence or two out of thousands from the book, I wouldn't say it is any less likely to be false than Sazed's or Szeth's false beliefs.

 

You're definitely right that it could be nothing. But I've gotten pretty good (I think) at reading between the lines on Brandon's stuff and this feels like something important. I definitely think there's more to the Essences then we've been looking at but I'm quite stumped on what it could be. Maybe we'll learn more when we discover the "Old Magic" (hopefully in book 3 which can't get here soon enough).

[Moogle]

So the idea that the Essences are linked to the surgest has some validity (Sinew being Tension and Adhesion makes some sense as well if I'm being fair) but it REALLY seems to fall apart when you realize that Lucentia isn't related to Illumination (we obviously don't know what Lucentia is but SURELY it has something to do with Light?). On the other hand, Shallan's experience with Blood sure lines up (Blood is related to Shash / Lightweavers). The fact that Blood (and to a lesser degree Tallow) don't line up with the Illumination oriented chapters makes me think there's something else going on there.

 

What chart are you referring to in WotK? My chart has all the essences but makes no mention of the Surges it whatsoever.

 

Ah, and so you've hit upon my major big issue with SA:

 

TRUTHWATCHERS AND EDGEDANCERS ARE IN THE COMPLETELY WRONG POSITIONS IT'S HORRIBLE!!!!111

 

(ahem. channeling some hpmor writing quirks. sorry.)

 

I've touched on why here, but basically Wyndle embodies 'pulp' perfectly while Ym's spren embodied 'lucentia' perfectly. I feel like the fourth and fifth tables of the Ars Arcanum should be swapped, at least given our current knowledge.

 

As to the blood thing: Darnam/Outis/I cannot spell his new name had a theory a while back about Pattern embodying blood by moving under the surface of things as if he was blood, but yeah he doesn't really embody blood all that well. I think the 'Essence' correlation might fit better with Soulcasting properties, as garnets (associated with Lightweavers) Soulcast blood, and the Soulcasting properties do fit perfectly with the Essences.

 

As to the charts: here is the Surgebinding chart, here is a labeled Surgebinding chart, and here is the ???Voidbinding??? chart, which is super mysterious. We've been speculating a long time, but don't have much. The woman is thought to be Cultivation, and the purple color scheme matches the Map of Shadesmar. It may be associated with the "esoteric" system, because it has a gigantic gemstone (used for fabrials) on it, and we have it heavily implied the esoteric system involves fabrials by WoB.

 

Also: please argue with the vets. I may only speak for myself, but I really appreciate these kinds of discussions.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle

[skaa]

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Of particular interest, what's the relevance of the Essences (which we've collectively been ignoring).

Just stopping by for a bit to assure our new friend laxrulz that not everyone's been ignoring the Essences. Check out the Essences-related theories I conveniently linked to in my sig.

As for the strangeness of certain Essence-Order-Surge arrangements (why isn't Illumination under Lucentia?!), you may peruse my thoughts on the matter here and here.

Whoops, I shouldn't even be visiting the forums right now. Gotta go, bye! *Elsecalls away*

Edited March 11, 2015 by skaa

[laxrulz777]

Ah, and so you've hit upon my major big issue with SA:

 

TRUTHWATCHERS AND EDGEDANCERS ARE IN THE COMPLETELY WRONG POSITIONS IT'S HORRIBLE!!!!111

So at this point, my faith in Brandon as a writer (and, ESPECIALLY, as a world/magic creator) is that this isn't a mistake nor is it happenstance and the fact that it seems SOOOOO wrong means that it's ESPECIALLY important. Note: AAA classifies the "Ancient scholars also placed the ten orders of KR on this list [referring to 'imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences'], alongside the Heralds themselves, who each had a classical association with one of the numbers and Essences."

 

To AAA, this is all about the Essences. She doesn't talk about the body parts or the soulcasting properties or even the Surges. She talks about the Essences. I'm beginning to think that the Heralds are the key. They have a purposeful connection to the Essences and their connections to the Surges are something else. We simply don't know enough about the Essences at this point but I think they are the really critical thing here. One possibility is that they represent the 10 cosmere wide "types" of things that you find in the spiritual realm. Maybe a Forger, for example, can't cross that threshold no matter how plausible it might be to do it. Everything is hardwired into one of those "types". That's a wild-chull guess (I just reread Emperor's Soul so... )

 

I hadn't seen the other schematic (problem with reading e-books i guess) but my observations (most of which probably have been noticed by others). 

• The "external" ring (the ones representative of either the Heralds or the KR Chapters) are much less "line" oriented and more "shape" oriented (they have more "body" to them). They're also more "rounded" and less "angular" then the Surgebinding chart.
• There appears to be no artistic link to this outer ring (they're just flat different... even if you were to make an "angular" version of one or a "filled out" version of the other, you wouldn't get those shapes
• The inner ring (the "surges" ring) are inverted (I'm sure the Alethi would say "corrupted") in symmetry. They have radial symmetry and generally have either the right twisted across the horizontal axis to get that result.
• Who knows if it's significant or not but a couple violate this "right twisted" generality. Transformation and Tension flip the left side vertically. Adhesion not only flips the left side but ALSO rotates each half along the vertical axis (kind of turning the whole thing inside out). 
• Truthwatchers (Paliah / Pulp) and Bondsmith (Ishar / Sinew) are in the middle (representing the "Double Eye of the Almight, an eye with two pupils representing the creation of plants and creatures")
• They share identical construction with each other. As I look closely at it, one thing that strikes me as odd is that the four essences/heralds on the corners (Stonewards/Tanat/Talus, Windrunners/Jes/Zephyr, Edgedancers/Vedeledev/Lucentia, Lightweavers/Shalash/Blood) share one more connection 4 vs 3) with the other surges/essences.
• The surgebinding one is surrounded by the images of the 10 Heralds. This might imply that the other ring is not a "Herald" ring but is an Essence ring instead (or possibly a Knight Radiant chapter ring?)
• There might be SOME similarity in the Bridge 4 tattoo and the bottom left glyph (the one in the Lightweaver slot). That's by no means a slam dunk.

I, of course, have no idea what this means but it's pretty interesting. On a purely side note, I don't think this is Voidbinding. The coloring and the woman around the edge don't speak to that. The color transition from yellow/red to purple makes me think it's something that straddles the Physical and Spiritual (there's a similar, though much more muted, color transition on the surgebinding chart). This seems like something maybe describing the Old Magic or possibly some Fabrial oriented system based on the Gem in the middle.

[Moogle]

So at this point, my faith in Brandon as a writer (and, ESPECIALLY, as a world/magic creator) is that this isn't a mistake nor is it happenstance and the fact that it seems SOOOOO wrong means that it's ESPECIALLY important. Note: AAA classifies the "Ancient scholars also placed the ten orders of KR on this list [referring to 'imperfect gathering of traditional Vorin symbolism associated with the Ten Essences'], alongside the Heralds themselves, who each had a classical association with one of the numbers and Essences."

 

To AAA, this is all about the Essences. She doesn't talk about the body parts or the soulcasting properties or even the Surges.

 

Well, the chart had an error with Just/Confident being swapped with Loving/Healing, so it would have precedence. (This error was in WoK, and was fixed in WoR/new editions of WoK as far as I know.) Also, she mentions it was an 'imperfect' gathering. I agree she's probably right for literary reasons though...

 

As to the Essence thing: Soulcasting properties apparently are the Essences (they fit utterly perfectly), so I don't really see a reason to think of them as separate things. It would make sense if they were important there. They definitely come up with Soulcasting, so it seems like there's some deeper stuff there. It's downright odd that Soulcasting needs special gems when no other Surgebinding does. The recent Chicago signing had a WoB on this:

Kurkistan: So for soulcasting—I talked a lot about those ideals that a lot of things are based on—is that also like there's an ideal of stone that when you soulcast stone if you don't do anything special, it just defaults as that-

Brandon: Yeah, there will be a default of all of them.

(source)

 

But it's not fully transcribed yet, and I'm not sure if this is the one I was thinking of. There's plenty of others talking about 'ideal' blood and the like. This fits very well with the Essence thing.

 

• The "external" ring (the ones representative of either the Heralds or the KR Chapters) are much less "line" oriented and more "shape" oriented (they have more "body" to them). They're also more "rounded" and less "angular" then the Surgebinding chart.
• There appears to be no artistic link to this outer ring (they're just flat different... even if you were to make an "angular" version of one or a "filled out" version of the other, you wouldn't get those shapes

 

I think the transform is more of a radial thing. Like, take the picture, and pretend it's a wheel, and sort of smear everything in a circle, so things pointing up are twisted around to be curves pointing down after an arc. This explains why so many of the pictures have "empty" tops - and the ones that don't seem to be rotated onto their sides. For example, if you take the Truthwatchers, and 'bend' things around, you get two ovals - which is what the end result is on the other chart, albeit they rotated it. There's a little more than that going on, and I think the problem is in part that the Surgebinding glyphs are the Honorblade's hilts, so they include a few extra lines here and there to represent the hilt. I recall someone doing the twisty experiment who ended up getting the Windrunner glyph to look like the blue one, but I can no longer find that page.

 

Excellent post on the Surge glyph thing here.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Moogle