Bort he/him Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I know there are threads touching on this subject, but I cannot find them. One thread I saw a few days ago suggested that the Herald that turned up at Kholinar at the end of WoK may not actually be Taln, but may in fact just be a madman, or one of the other Heralds, or just someone else. Well, I found something last night which may support this. In the Ars Arcanum in Alloy of Law, it noted that aluminium's feruchemical properties was to store identity. Was Taln the Herald a feruchemist? Has someone else got hold of one of his aluminiumminds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Even if someone else has this hypothetical aluminiummind I don't think it can be tapped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort he/him Posted January 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) That is the way it should work, but what if things are different because it is Roshar, the Heralds were (probably) slivers of Honour, and it is aluminium (rare and expensive on Scadrial, and can only be produced by soulcasting on Roshar)? I don't have any evidence to back this up, it was just an interesting thought that came to me while finishing Alloy of Law. Edited January 20, 2015 by Bort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 she/her Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 They weren't splinters as they were around before Honor was splintered. I always thought they could be slivers though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 From what Brandon has said, while the Stormlight Archive is a Cosmere book he's writing with the assumption that readers have not necessarily read any of the other Cosmere books - there may be "Easter eggs" and subtle stuff in the background but not things the plot depends upon. Nightblood may be the only overt case of off-world magic and Nightblood is unique and self-contained anyway. So, long story short, I think it would be much more productive to look for in-world solutions. For example, if the Taln we see is not the real Taln then maybe some Herald found the real Taln when he returned (the new Desolation is due to Taln's return), felt guilty and took Taln to the Nightwatcher to get him cured... and got cursed with Taln's "identity". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort he/him Posted January 20, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 They weren't splinters as they were around before Honor was splintered. I always thought they could be slivers though. That is what I meant, thanks. I have edited my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 ... the Heralds were (probably) slivers of Honour... This is very very unlikely. For somebody to be a Sliver, they need to (and I quote pretty verbatim) "have held most of a Shard's power and then lost it." I find it incredible that Tanavast would've handed Honor to one Herald after another just so they get the Sliver perks - which we know nothing about really. They weren't splinters as they were around before Honor was splintered. I always thought they could be slivers though. Couldn't have been Splinters anyway, Splinters are just lumps of Investiture that has gained sentience (by virtue of being lumps of Investiture, and everything points in the direction of Investiture naturally developing sentience if left alone long enough in large enough quantities). People, definitionally, can't be Splinters. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebojello Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Excellent points Argent. I would add that there is something certainly mysterious about the Heralds (or at least the one that we refer to as Taln) in that they are similar to "Returned" or an Elantrian in that they seem to have faster than normal reflexes. Perfected humans, if you will. For normal Heralds, this could have been simply the vast amounts of Stormlight they used (and how did they us so much.....). Nonetheless, we have that-which-we-think-is-Taln doesn't seem to have access to Stormlight, yet had a heralds blade (perceived, and quite unlike the only other known blade of Jezeriah), and still had supernatural reflexes while seeing a world of burning. So, we don't know outside of Brandon.... 1) Misdirecting us. 2) Directing us. Or 3) Both. Edited January 20, 2015 by weebojello 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maetel39 Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 For example, if the Taln we see is not the real Taln then maybe some Herald found the real Taln when he returned (the new Desolation is due to Taln's return), felt guilty and took Taln to the Nightwatcher to get him cured... and got cursed with Taln's "identity". I love this idea! except i don't think the timing works : ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kari-no-sugata Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I love this idea! except i don't think the timing works : ( Thanks... but what problem with timing do you see? I think Taln might have been back for some time. I suspect that it's his return that prompted various things 6-7 years ago - Szeth's observations that lead to him becoming Truthless, Jasnah and Shallan's spren bonding and probably the Stormfather sending visions to people including Galivar. We certainly don't know all the mechanics of how Heralds leave/return to Roshar though - if he returned shortly before we see him turn up at the end of tWoK then somehow his return was predicted many years in advance. Seems simpler if he actually did return 6-7 years ago and everything since then has been a slow response to that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I suspect the "man called Taln" is a Herald, based off of Hoid's observation. Since we know that Hoid has a metalmind that lets him know where to be, one would assume that he wouldn't be at the place of "Taln's" arrival unless it was important. We should also factor in the hallucinations, the super-fast reflexes, and the Honorblade he had at the end of WoK. (Yes, we know that the Shardblade "Taln" was holding was an Honorblade) Q: The Shardblade that Dalinar had at the end of Words of Radiance, was that the Honorblade? A: The Shardblade that Dalinar had at the end of Words of Radiance that he gave up? Q: Yeah, that he gave up.A: No it was not. Q: It was not? So what happened to the Honorblade that the Herald had? A: Nobody kno- Well, somebody knows, but it is not known to the main characters. Q: Can I ask if uh, Hoid- A: If Hoid knows? Q: Yeah.A: Hoid did not take it, but I’m not answering whether he knows. LANCE ALVEINCan you confirm if the scene with Taln at the end of Way of Kings is entirely in Hoid's perspective? There was some discussion that it might not be, since Taln's honourblade was called a shardblade. BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)That entire scene is in Hoid's POV, and the reason for it being called a shardblade is because honourblades are shardblades. So, my personal theory, based on the evasiveness that Brandon shows when asked about "Taln" post-WoK, is that "Taln" is a Herald, but not actually Taln. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I suspect the "man called Taln" is a Herald, based off of Hoid's observation. Since we know that Hoid has a metalmind that lets him know where to be, one would assume that he wouldn't be at the place of "Taln's" arrival unless it was important. We should also factor in the hallucinations, the super-fast reflexes, and the Honorblade he had at the end of WoK. (Yes, we know that the Shardblade "Taln" was holding was an Honorblade) So, my personal theory, based on the evasiveness that Brandon shows when asked about "Taln" post-WoK, is that "Taln" is a Herald, but not actually Taln. If the Herald is not Taln, where did his possible Honorblade come from? We've heard nothing about anyone stealing one from the Shin.I also disagree that those WoBs confirm matters but perhaps. If "Taln" has an Honorblade, I think the most likely theory is that he is in fact Taln. Or he isn't Taln and doesn't have an Honorblade. ... Or Taravangian wasn't lying? That would be weird writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 If the Herald is not Taln, where did his possible Honorblade come from? We've heard nothing about anyone stealing one from the Shin. I also disagree that those WoBs confirm matters but perhaps. If "Taln" has an Honorblade, I think the most likely theory is that he is in fact Taln. Or he isn't Taln and doesn't have an Honorblade. ... Or Taravangian wasn't lying? That would be weird writing. I would think he was Taln, but for the weird skipping around Brandon does. (i.e. "the man who calls himself Taln")It just seems unusual that he would refer to "Taln" that way if he really was Taln. Shin honorblades? Explain, please? I do believe Brandon is referring to the Shardblade that "Taln" is holding in WoK as an Honorblade, because he did not contradict the question asker and correct him. Unless you have more WoB on the subject, I fear that further debate on this issue will be pointless. I consider the WoB we do have to be pretty definitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Shin honorblades? Explain, please? The Shin have all the Honorblades, except for Taln's, one other Herald's, and now Szeth's: "Ahbut theywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthe bondButwherewherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealizationlikea pricityTheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketousea TruthlessCanwecraftaweapon" -Floorboard 17: Paragraph 2, every second letter starting with the first (Clarifies to: "Ah but they were left behind. It is obvious from the nature of the bond. But where where where where? Set off. Obvious. Realization like apricity. They are with the Shin. We must find one. Can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon?") “No, no,” Taravangian said. “I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now . One of the Honorblades has vanished.” Szeth blinked , and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. “One of the other seven?” “Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.” Taravangian is clearly lying through his teeth here... but maybe he's not lying about the missing Honorblade? (Math: Taravangian speaks of the 'other seven', Szeth has one, Taln has (had?) one, leaving one missing.) It is basically confirmed at this point in time that Nalan took his Honorblade back (though some people disagree?), explaining the missing Honorblade from Szeth's count. WoBs: I asked Brandon for something about honorblades that we don't already know. His response was, "One Herald (other than Taln) kept his honorblade (or, at least, took it back). (source - including picture!) Can the Heralds Surgebind without their blades? If not, are they under the same restrictions as <can’t quite hear the last bit> A: The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you’re familiar with. (source) “Lift!” Wyndle said. “Behind.” She glanced down the hallway. She could swear he was glowing faintly, and he was certainly running too quickly. Darkness was awesome too. The Shin have the other seven (that is, not Jezrien's, not Nalan's, not Taln's). If you're proposing Taln is not in fact Taln but has an Honorblade, you need to explain how he got it from the Shin despite being insane. Taravangian is clearly lying through his teeth in the above passage, but perhaps he was being truthful about that report. Regarding you thinking that if Brandon doesn't correct someone, he's implicitly confirming it, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Brandon did let people call the Cryptics "truthspren" forever. Edited January 20, 2015 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (Math: Taravangian speaks of the 'other seven', Szeth has one, Taln has (had?) one, leaving one missing.) But Kaladin took Jezrien's, correct? I don't remember what happened with the one Szeth dropped... And Nalan has his... Which would leave "Taln" as actually being Taln. Alright. I stand corrected. I agree. I still don't understand why Brandon is referring to him as "the man called Taln," though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) But Kaladin took Jezrien's, correct? I don't remember what happened with the one Szeth dropped... And Nalan has his... Which would leave "Taln" as actually being Taln. Alright. I stand corrected. I agree. I still don't understand why Brandon is referring to him as "the man called Taln," though. Right, Kaladin took Jezrien's, which Szeth had. I was being unclear in that paragraph - I was speaking from the point of view in time at which Szeth and Taravangian were speaking. And there's no need to stand corrected - you may very well be right. I have this sinking feeling Taravangian was telling the truth and mixing it with a lie to make it more believable. Though that still feels weird... And of course, "Taln" could have stolen it from the Shin. It's not like it's this super well-guarded secret. Nalan and Taravangian both know, "Taln" might too. Either way, I am still against the idea of "Taln" holding an Honorblade. (I am a broken record. Sorry.) I don't think Brandon would spoil the reveal by saying "one of your assumptions is wrong" to questions involving "Taln"'s "Honorblade". But the matter is quite murky. I certainly can't fault people for holding other views with this level of evidence. Edited January 20, 2015 by Moogle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 I have this sinking feeling Taravangian was telling the truth and mixing it with a lie to make it more believable. Though that still feels weird... What do you mean about Taravangian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaze1616 he/him Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) What do you mean about Taravangian? This: “No, no,” Taravangian said. “I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now . One of the Honorblades has vanished.” Szeth blinked , and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. “One of the other seven?” “Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.” Taravangian is clearly lying through his teeth here... but maybe he's not lying about the missing Honorblade? I must say, partially lying is something I can see Taravangian doing. He was mildly intelligent that day, plus, if Szeth were to try and check the info, he'd find it true. Heck, even the Regrowth bit might be true. Edited January 20, 2015 by Blaze1616 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 What do you mean about Taravangian? “No, no,” Taravangian said. “I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now . One of the Honorblades has vanished.” Szeth blinked , and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. “One of the other seven?” “Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.” I am saying he might not be lying. Maybe one of the Honorblades was stolen from Shinovar recently ("Taln" being the criminal). Of course, he is definitely lying about Kaladin having it to Szeth here, which casts doubt on that. But... still. I wouldn't rule out the theory that "Taln" has an Honorblade just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) “No, no,” Taravangian said. “I have learned this only recently. Yes, it makes sense now . One of the Honorblades has vanished.” Szeth blinked , and he focused on Taravangian, as if returning from a distant place. “One of the other seven?” “Yes,” Taravangian said. “I have heard only hints. Your people are secretive. But yes . . . I see, it is one of the two that allow Regrowth. Kholin must have it.” I am saying he might not be lying. Maybe one of the Honorblades was stolen from Shinovar recently ("Taln" being the criminal). Of course, he is definitely lying about Kaladin having it to Szeth here, which casts doubt on that. But... still. I wouldn't rule out the theory that "Taln" has an Honorblade just yet. Ah, okay. So at that point, the Shin had six (or seven), Taln maybe had one, Szeth had one, and Nale maybe has one. That leaves one if the Shin only had six. Edit: Might Shalash have one? Edited January 20, 2015 by inexorablePanda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Vargo thinks nothing about a missing Honorblade in his chapters. Not that Brandon didn't already have characters hide things in their PoV, but it would make for a really annoying trend... I doubt Vargo was telling the truth, otherwise Andro likely wouldn't have 'thought they were dead' and commented on T being more than average smart after Szeth was gone. Ah, okay.So at that point, the Shin had six (or seven), Taln maybe had one, Szeth had one, and Nale had one. That leaves one if the Shin only had six. While Taln definitely is supposed to have had his Blade at least upon arrival, it's not canon Nale has his Blade. edit: grammar Edited January 20, 2015 by Aleksiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argent he/him Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) While Taln definitely is supposed to have had his Blade at least upon arrival, it's not canon Nale has his Blade. Though it is that one of the Heralds went back and reclaimed (presumably) his or her Blade. Nale just makes the most sense. Shalash most likely doesn't have a Shardblade, given that in Basil's interlude she mutters something about maybe getting one. Edited January 20, 2015 by Argent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksiel Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 Though it is that one of the Heralds went back and reclaimed (presumably) his or her Blade. Nale just makes the most sense. Shalash most likely doesn't have a Shardblade, given that in Basil's interlude she mutters something about maybe getting one. Or may be it was another Herald. Yes, Nale is the likeliest as of now, but it''s not canon. I saw WoB Nale's eyes didn't change when he killed Ym and he had summoned his Blade then. This could be argued both in favor and against the odds of Nalan having his Honorblade. Are his eyes permanently the same color for whatever reason? Do Heralds eyes change when the respectful Blade is summoned or does this only affect others holding the Blade? I'd go with anyone summoning Honorbalde has his/her eyes change to the matching color since surgebinding abilities apply to anyone. But may be Nale just has pale amber (or whatever the right color) eyes? We don't know. Brandon has left his eye color out of any description of Nale we were given. Nobody has described Nale's Blade as the masterwork it's supposed to be. We know Yezrien's lost its ornaments, but we can only guess why. There aren't enough facts to determine whether or not Nale has his Blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 (edited) Or may be it was another Herald. Yes, Nale is the likeliest as of now, but it''s not canon. It is indeed basically confirmed unless you can explain why Nalan was Surgebinding if he doesn't have one. WoB: Can the Heralds Surgebind without their blades? If not, are they under the same restrictions as <can’t quite hear the last bit> A: The Heralds without their Blades are incapable of the powers you’re familiar with. (source) Lift sees him take in Stormlight, a power we're familiar with, so he must therefore have an Honorblade. Edited January 20, 2015 by Moogle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper Posted January 20, 2015 Report Share Posted January 20, 2015 It is indeed basically confirmed unless you can explain why Nalan was Surgebinding if he doesn't have one. WoB: Lift sees him take in Stormlight, a power we're familiar with, so he must therefore have an Honorblade. So we know Nale has one, Kaladin has another, the Shin have six (or seven), "Taln" had one, and one is still missing. Any ideas, Moogle? Or Windrunner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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