Black Sphere?

[hoidhunter he/him]

So...this may end up being one of those really short threads...but does anyone have any idea what the deal is with the dark sphere that seems to glow black...you know...the one that Gavilar gives to Szeth while he is dying?  The obvious answer would be that it is somehow ties to the black spheres from Shadesmar...but...for some reason that doesn't seem quite right.  Does anyone have any insight that they would care to share with me?

Edited January 17, 2015 by hoidhunter

[Lord Pifferdoo he/him]

Lady Pifferdoo had a pretty good theory when she read WoR. She speculates that the black spheres are Odium's physical aspect. Odium is confined to Braize, currently, but the act of bringing all the black spheres from Braize to Roshar effectively moves the Shard to that world. Like if someone took all the atium on Scadrial and threw it on First of the Sun, Ruin would then be moved to First of the Sun. Then, she speculates, the physical properties of the object would change. Like instead of being atium, there might be special grubs that allow birds to control peoples minds or something crazy. The physical form on Roshar is spheres (or maybe gems), and the glass sphere part could've been added later. The sphere itself contains one of the Unmade, contained like spren, and the Parshendi didn't want Gavilar to have it because they consider the Unmade to be their Old Gods. Gavilar didn't want the Ghostbloods to have it because the Ghostbloods are sneaky af, and he didn't want the Sons of Honor to have it because they would probably awaken the Unmade and use it to bring about the next Desolation. He gave it to Szeth, because he was sure that Szeth would have no idea what it was, and ignorance can be a wonderful guardian sometimes.

[Argent he/him]

Another theory - and I should explicitly point out that all we have right now is theories* - is that the sphere holds (the essence of) one of the Unmade, which are presumably really powerful beings, invested somehow by Odium. Showing the sphere, the presumed prison of an Unmade, may have raised the concern among the Parshendi that Gavilar was going to (unwittingly?) bring the Unmade back into the world; if the Unmade are the Parshendi gods, it could explain their harsh actions. 

 

* If there are any of you who are picky about the use of the word "theory" in a context such as this, I use it to mean a hypothesis.

[Moogle]

Gavilar was concerned about people getting it, which suggests it can be used for something dangerous. We know it's heavily Invested:

Me: he sphere which Gavilar found that Szeth now has--I've been lead to believe that it either is or was heavily invested

Brandon: Yes

Me: Is it still heavily invested?

Brandon: Yes

Me: So, it hasn't, like, gone dun or anything

Brandon: No, it has not

Me: And I'm going to take that to mean it wasn't invested with Stormlight--was it invested by Odium? 

Brandon: Something like that.

(source)

 

Of note, we have this bit from Szeth:

The miners eventually tired of Took’s increasingly slurred stories. They bid him farewell, ignoring his broad hints that another cup of beer would prompt him to tell his greatest tale: that of the time when he’d seen the Nightwatcher herself and stolen a sphere that glowed black at night. That tale always discomforted Szeth, as it reminded him of the strange black sphere Gavilar had given him. He’d hidden that carefully in Jah Keved. He didn’t know what it was, but he didn’t want to risk a master taking it from him.

 

I don't like either of the theories presented so far - Ruin, for example, was incredibly vast and powerful, and his physical form in the world was a small fraction of his power, so I wouldn't expect moving that to move him. And as for the Unmade, they're on a level with the Stormfather, so I wouldn't expect them to fit in a small sphere. Too much power.

 

Of course, I don't have any alternative theories to present. The black sphere is a mystery.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Moogle

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

Not sure if this helps the discussion or not, but a few months ago, I think I found another stone like this on Sel. It's Sarene's wedding gift to Raoden, a pendant that's described like this: "Somewhere, [sarene] had found a heavy black stone that polished up as if it were metal, and its reflective darkness complimented [Raoden's] silvery skin."

 

Both of these planets were visited by Rayse, and both have splintered shards on them.

Edited January 17, 2015 by mckeedee123

[Shlee]

My personal theory is that it contains the opposite investiture of stormlight, some kind of odium light, that can be drawn in by a voidbringer who knows how to use it, but is inert/useless to anyone else. I think the reference to it as a "sphere" is telling, since spheres are what is used to hold stormlight, and also the fact that it glows, as do things that hold stormlight.  I think that just how stormlight is used to power the surges, there is something else used to power the capabilities of the voidbringers. There's just an awful lot of parallels there, both in wording and in how my brain thinks things should be working.

[Patrick Star]

I was hoping that it was Yelig-nar, but WoB quashed that theory (if anything, that makes Szeth's situation even worse).

 

It could still be an unmade, but I don't think that any of the other ones are good candidates, based on the evidence we've seen.

 

Based on Amaram's actions and connection to Gavilar, It's almost certainly some sort of being or catalyst to kick-start a desolation.  Maybe it's voidbinding spren?  When Kaladin lashes the rock, he sees a ton of bindspren (or something like that) holding it.  The sphere could contain those kinds of spren, but only the ones that correspond to voidbinding (rather than surgebinding).  However, that doesn't seem sinister enough.

 

@Shlee

 

We've seen spren captured in spheres as well, they're not just stormlight.  Besides, stormlight is not OF any shard.  It's a neutral fuel.  Until otherwise stated, I'm going to consider the voidbringers as using stormlight as well.

[Dunkum he/him]

Besides, stormlight is not OF any shard.  It's a neutral fuel.  Until otherwise stated, I'm going to consider the voidbringers as using stormlight as well.

Do we actully know this?  there is a WoB where Brandon compares Stormlight to the Mists from Scadrial, which were of Preservation, so it is perfectly reasonable to assume it is related to a shard.  and given that we know the stormfather is related to Honor, and that the highstorms distribute tormlight across Roshar, it seems reasonable to assume it is related to Honor.

[Moogle]

We've seen spren captured in spheres as well, they're not just stormlight.  Besides, stormlight is not OF any shard.  It's a neutral fuel.  Until otherwise stated, I'm going to consider the voidbringers as using stormlight as well.

 

Do you have a source on Stormlight not being of a Shard? I have always thought it might be a mishmash of Honor+Cultivation, or perhaps Adonalsium directly. If it's anything like the mists, it's definitely of a Shard.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Moogle

[Patrick Star]

Do you have a source on Stormlight not being of a Shard? I have always thought it might be a mishmash of Honor+Cultivation, or perhaps Adonalsium directly. If it's anything like the mists, it's definitely of a Shard.

 

I'm going off of memory, so I may be wrong.  Probably am, actually.  My bad.  I just seem to remember something about voidbringers also using stormlight.

[Shlee]

WoB:

 

QUESTION

As far as I can tell, in The Stormlight Archive, we have seen three different lights: the stormlight, the amberlight in the flashbacks, and the dark light in the stone. Do those correspond to the three Shards?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No, the amberlight is more a function of...it's no different than the stormlight.

QUESTION

So, you see that in a storm? Like when gems gather that in the storm?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That amberlight is more related to... so, no... you are not seeing something other than stormlight. That is like saying that stormlight in a topaz is a different color than stormlight in a sapphire. It's not different colors; you're just seeing it filtered through something. The dark light of the, um, the gemstone thatSzeth was given is indeed something different and distinct.

QUESTION

Voooiidlight?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, it is related to a different shard. How about that?

 

 

I'd say that confirms stormlight is related to a shard, and my vote is Honor.

 

Also, just to nitpick words because I think the way they're used in-world is important - we've seen spren captured in gemstones but never in a sphere. Although I will also concede that since there are gemstones in the spheres we see, it should certainly be possible to capture a spren in a gemstone and then put it in a sphere. I just think the terminology used in the story is parallel for a reason. Every interlude with the captured spren Eshonai uses, it's referred to as a being captured in a gemstone. Every mention of fabrials reference gemstones. I think it's telling that the only other time we see the use of the word sphere is in reference to that black one. Combine that with the fact that it's glowing.....Voidlight. Odiolight? What are we calling this? lol   Also from the third book:

I think that the Everstorm has to have some form of investiture imbedded in it in order to change the parshmen into "voidbringers" and we know from SA3 preview chapter that Kaladin cannot use whatever is in the Everstorm. I think that sphere Gavilar had has the equivalent of a gemstone, or perhaps even a gemstone we simply haven't been exposed to yet, that can store this Investiture. (Everstormlight? Everlight?) 

 

However, the one knock I've seen against this theory is someone asked if the sphere had "lost" any of its light and Brandon said no (I'll have to try harder to find this WoB, Theoryland search is being a punk again.) And we know spheres infused with stormlight eventually become dun over a period of time.

 

A second, less fatal blow, is that there is an in-world story of the Nightwatcher giving someone a very similarly-described sphere, which would be concerning, if it did indeed contain something like what I'm imagining. Unless of course, it wasn't actually the Nightwatcher, or she's not associated with Cultivation, as most people think, or Cultivation has some problems we aren't aware of, or it's a function of stories getting altered over time or .....any number of things really.

 

Edited to add:

I just seem to remember something about voidbringers also using stormlight.

 

My guess is you are correctly remembering a quote from Szeth in Way of Kings:

"Stormlight could be held for only a short time, a few minutes at most. It leaked away, the human body too porous a container. He had heard that the Voidbringers could hold it in perfectly. But, then, did they even exist? His punishment declared that they didn’t. His honor demanded that they did."

 

Just because he believes it, doesn't make it so, however

Edited January 17, 2015 by Shlee

[Patrick Star]

To be fair, Brandon does say "gemstone" when referencing the sphere, so that could back up the odiumspren idea.

[Dunkum he/him]

To be fair, Brandon does say "gemstone" when referencing the sphere, so that could back up the odiumspren idea.

Could just be a spherical cut gemstone.  Have we seen any of those in the books?  maybe a spherical cut is the optimal one for storing stormlight

[Shaggai]

Another theory - and I should explicitly point out that all we have right now is theories* - is that the sphere holds (the essence of) one of the Unmade, which are presumably really powerful beings, invested somehow by Odium. Showing the sphere, the presumed prison of an Unmade, may have raised the concern among the Parshendi that Gavilar was going to (unwittingly?) bring the Unmade back into the world; if the Unmade are the Parshendi gods, it could explain their harsh actions. 

 

* If there are any of you who are picky about the use of the word "theory" in a context such as this, I use it to mean a hypothesis.

This is my preferred theory. The Death Rattles started around the time that the Alethi found the Shattered Plains. If the Parshendi had trapped Moelach, but over the millenia had lost the sphere, it's possible that Gavilar could have found it and triggered Moelach's awakening. Initially, it would still be trapped in the sphere, and when Szeth brought it to Jah Keved the aura would be centered there. This would explain why there were so many Death Rattles in Taravangian's hospital. Eventually, it would get free and begin to move, in time for the Desolation.

[Patrick Star]

Eventually, it would get free and begin to move, in time for the Desolation.

 

His response makes it sound like whatever was in there at the assassination is still in there, so Moelach's really not a good choice (it was moving).  I believe that Nergaoul (causes the thrill) moved towards Jah Keved, but it could be chasing the sphere.

[Shaggai]

His response makes it sound like whatever was in there at the assassination is still in there, so Moelach's really not a good choice (it was moving).  I believe that Nergaoul (causes the thrill) moved towards Jah Keved, but it could be chasing the sphere.

Do we know when was the last time Szeth checked on it?

[Patrick Star]

Do we know when was the last time Szeth checked on it?

 

Whenever he was in Jah Keved.  He'd buy some muffins from a mom-and-pop bakery a block away from where he put it, and then have tea with the sphere whenever he was in town.

 

In other words, he probably just left it there.  He's completely traumatized, I don't think he wants to see it again.

[Shaggai]

Whenever he was in Jah Keved.  He'd buy some muffins from a mom-and-pop bakery a block away from where he put it, and then have tea with the sphere whenever he was in town.

 

In other words, he probably just left it there.  He's completely traumatized, I don't think he wants to see it again.

Right, then it totally could have contained Moelach.

[Patrick Star]

Right, then it totally could have contained Moelach.

 

No, it couldn't have.

 

Brandon said that the sphere hasn't gone dun, so that means that no investiture has escaped from it.

[physicskid he/him]

I think the black Sphere contains at least some part of Nergaoul, the unmade which creates the thrill.

I think this is likely because:

Taravangian suggests that the thrill may be strongest in Jah Keved

Dalinar feels the thrill most strongly immediately before gavilars death.

Amaram suggests that gavilar was involved with the sons of honor. collecting the unmade is an obvious step to causing a desolation, as is apparently their goal.

Eshonai's interludes show that spren can be held in gemstones.

 

finally collocating the peak of the thrill with the black sphere is just too big of a coincidence to really be a coincidence. this is brandon sanderson after all. 

[hoidhunter he/him]

Wow...you leave the forum alone for a while and a whole bunch of people post replies to your thread question.  Thank all!  Lots of great insight.  We...of course...won't get to find out for sure until Brandon let's us find out in the story...but I can definitely see where a few of you guys are coming from. 

 

Considering the WoB about it being something that comes from a different shard...not honor...coupled with the story about the nightwatcher giving someone a black sphere...could it be that it comes from cultivation?  I mean...we assume that cultivation is a "good" shard...(for a few different reasons)...but the shard's intent doesn't have to be so black or white on the good bad scale.  Maybe there is something sinister about cultivation that we don't know yet?

[dvoraen]

Something I was contemplating: since Odium or "something like that" (the Unmade) Invested the sphere, suppose that it's basically acting like a 'beacon' for that Unmade's power (and perhaps does the same for the others)?  Kind of like how we have wireless repeaters to enhance the range of a wireless network, that sphere could be doing the same thing, and it could explain why it's not losing any Investment, because the Unmade in question is (are?) actively using it remotely.  In other words, it's broadcasting that particular Unmade's ability, which in this case I would assume to be Nergaoul's, given that the Thrill has been experienced on a very very long distance scale (the distance between the Shattered Plains and Vedenar is quite large).

 

It would explain Dalinar feeling the Thrill strongly the night Gavilar died (close proximity to the source), as well as how a Desolation can affect the entire world to the point that a massive quantity of the population is dead: the Unmade have a '4G network'

 

I really wish we knew just how far the Unmade such as Nergaoul and Moelach can influence by themselves, since Moelach seems to have a huge radius of influence, or else is (eek) omnipresent, to be able to affect Kharbranth and the Shattered Plains simultaneously.

Edited January 18, 2015 by dvoraen

[Moogle]

Assuming for a second that the sphere is related to the Unmade, and using the map, here's what we know:

• Szeth, after killing Gavilar, was picked up by a merchant fleeing Alethkar because he thought foreigners would be treated poorly in Alethkar. He would have headed directly west from Kholinar because of this - any other direction would keep them in Alethkar for a much longer time.
• Szeth says he hid the sphere in Jah Keved so no master would risk taking it from him.
• Given Szeth was taken by a merchant, it seems likely the merchant would have headed to where there's people - south, to Vedenar. This isn't guaranteed by any stretch.
• Szeth ended up in Bavland years later.

Unfortunately, we can't get an exact read from this, but I'd guess the sphere is hidden to the east of the Horneater Peaks. This would fit with the observed behavior of the Thrill being about as strong between Alethkar and Jah Keved.

 

Of course, the Thrill reaches the Shattered Plains. This means Nergaoul has a radius of at least 1/3 of the continent, which is crazy.

 

Predictions based on this:

• The Thrill should be felt in nearly the entire Purelake.
• It should be felt in the eastern half of Azir and Babatharnam at least, though more weakly than elsewhere.
• It should not be felt in Iri.
• It should not be felt in Shinovar.

It's also possible Nergaoul's influence reaches the entire continent, in which case that's pretty scary.

 

Either way, the Thrill's strength matching vaguely around where Szeth hid the sphere is pretty interesting. It certainly can't be dismissed out of hand. I'm still against the theory because an Unmade should be too powerful to fit in a sphere, though. We have this:

Khyrindor
Are the Unmade and the Stormfather the same "class" of being?

Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased)
Technically no, but they are on a similar level. It is a good analogy.
(source)

 

I like this beacon idea.

Edited January 18, 2015 by Moogle

[natc]

Well has anyone actually tried infusing Stormfather into a sphere before?

Yeah Nergaoul might not fit. Perhaps the sphere is just something he is drawn to, yes. Wonder where Moelach is going though...

[Patrick Star]

Well has anyone actually tried infusing Stormfather into a sphere before?

Yeah Nergaoul might not fit. Perhaps the sphere is just something he is drawn to, yes. Wonder where Moelach is going though...

 

I'm pretty sure that Moelach was heading towards Stormseat.  While Kal and Shallan were stuck in the chasms, they (at least Kal, not sure if Shallan did) saw two unmade heading in that direction (during the highstorms).

 

On pages 875 and 876: "Light came from above, too steady to be lightning.  Something was glowing on the plateau.  Something that moved.  It was hard to see... He swore he saw an enormous figure walking up there, followed by another, alien and sleek.  Striding the storm.  Leg after leg, until the glow passed."

 

I'm pretty sure that this was the day that the Parshendi adopted stormform, so it's almost certainly unmade being attracted to their base.  They seem to glow, probably with stormlight, as Kal would have mentioned if they were emitting something else.  Not quite sure what to make of that in regards to the sphere, but it definitely seems to discredit the unmade-in-a-box theory.