What happens to metals when consumed

[Shadowborn]

Seeing as everyone else has gotten to all the multi-novel theories, I think I'll start small and look into what happens to a metal after it's consumed. This heory is based entirely upon the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum "On the Three Metallic Arts":

"...Though the metals are consumed in the proccess, the power itself does not come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running."

 

In a similar fashion, the word catalyst is often used to describe an enzyme, which is a type of protein often found in a living being. To spare the details. an enzyme takes a chemical reaction and makes it require less energy in order to activate. The reaction does not come from the catalyst, but the reaction is easier because of the catalyst. When enzymes are depleted, they're recycled into the body. Assuming that metals are recycled in a similar fashion to enzymes, If you recycled enough of a certain metal, would that be how you become a savant? Does aluminum burning thusly help you become a savant?

 

More importantly, This could mean that it's entirely possible for someone to manifest the energy required to mimic the effects of an Allomantic ability and could describe how Elend and Vin felt "phantom metals" during the moments before they became gods or died (in that order.)

 

So, the three important things from this theory:

1: Metals and Allomancy = Chemical reactions in the human body. All people on Scadrial, perhaps all people in the Cosmere are capable of Allomancy, not just those who have Snapped.

2: Savants could be made by the absorption of metals into the body, based on the body's increased tolerance for it.

3: Normal people could possibly have Allomantic abilities without metals, using energy from alternate sources.

 

I'll admit what I'm looking at is being looked at by an entirely scientific point of view. I'm assuming there are some shard based may deny some of my more outrageous tangents.

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

I'm pretty sure that the effects of allomancy are determined by the timbre of the metal being burned. The chemical composition factors into that, but it's not actually what's channeling the power.

[Redbird he/him]

About point 3, there is a WoB somewhere stating that investiture from one system can be used to power another system.

[Shadowborn]

@mckeedee123

Entirely correct! The metal itself is not where the power is from at all. But what we must remember is that the metals and their absorptions are entirely chemical, seeing as it takes a specific composition of metal to be burned without causing what appears to be a migraine. In a similar fashion, enzymes are often set to a specific environment in the body and moving these enzymes into unintended locations would make whatever reaction that would occur impossible.

 

As for the location of the power, the power is from the shards of Preservation and Ruin. The metal is simply taking the energy from Preservation and Ruin and making it possible for the energy to be tapped. What I'm suggesting is that the metal may efficient in bringing out its effects, it may not be necessary.

 

@Redbird3000

Really now? Would directly receiving Investiture from the Shard/Shardholder itself be possible?

Edited January 16, 2015 by Shadowborn

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

@mckeedee123

Entirely correct! The metal itself is not where the power is from at all. But what we must remember is that the metals and their absorptions are entirely chemical, seeing as it takes a specific composition of metal to be burned without causing what appears to be a migraine. In a similar fashion, enzymes are often set to a specific environment in the body and moving these enzymes into unintended locations would make whatever reaction that would occur impossible.

 

As for the location of the power, the power is from the shards of Preservation and Ruin. The metal is simply taking the energy from Preservation and Ruin and making it possible for the energy to be tapped. What I'm suggesting is that the metal may efficient in bringing out its effects, it may not be necessary.

 

er... well, yes. What I was saying was that all investiture is essentially the same magic system, and that system is based on sound vibrations/investiture pulses (whatever you hear when you burn bronze).

 

So for example, it's the pulse an Aon produces (not necessarily its shape) that tells the Dor how to manifest itself. Likewise, different metals produce slightly different sounds when rung, which is probably the principle on which Allomancy is built.

Edited January 16, 2015 by mckeedee123

[Moogle]

When metals are burned, they are returned to the planet:

I just got back from the Phoenix Comic on, where Brandon is a guest at, and I must say it was an honor to meet him. He read parts of Wax/Wayne 2, Legion 2, and the Taravangian interlude in WoR. There weren't a lot of cosmeric goodies, but I did get a couple interesting tidbits in relation to Mistborn: Ruin would have had to manifest to reabsorb the atium, the Well of Ascension did not come at a price to Preservation's power, and perhaps the most interesting one. Burned metals are turned into a different form, and will eventually return to the planet. The Pits of Hath sin are meant to foreshadow this.
(source)

 
Sorry to shut this one down. It's a good theory.
 
I'm not sure how you extrapolated from your original theory to "everyone in the cosmere can use Allomancy". It's interesting, because everyone in the cosmere can use Hemalurgy. Would you mind breaking down your train of logic? Is it just that my absorbing metals into your body, this is what you think causes Allomancy? If so, we have this:

Brandon Sanderson
Oooooh, ok. Hm. That one is so hard! Every time people ask me something like this... What have I never been asked that people should be asking, is basically what the question is? Something that the fans have just missed... They pick up on so much, that it’s hard... I do wonder if, you know… all the magic systems [in my books] are connected and work on some basic fundamental principles, and a lot of people haven’t been asking questions about this. One thing I did get a question on today, and I’ll just talk about this one... they didn’t ask the right question, but I nudged them the right way, is understanding that tie between Aondor [the magic system from Elantris] and allomancy [Mistborn’s magic system].
People ask about getting the power from metals and things, but that’s not actually how it works. The power’s not coming from metal. I talked a little about this before, but you are drawing power from some source, and the metal is actually just a gateway. It’s actually the molecular structure of the metal… what’s going on there, the pattern, the resonance of that metal works in the same way as an Aon does in Elantris. It filters the power. So it is just a sign of “this is what power this energy is going to be shaped into and give you.” When you understand that, compounding [in Alloy of Law] makes much more sense.
Compounding is where you are able to kind of draw in more power than you should with feruchemy. What’s going on there is you’re actually charging a piece of metal, and then you are burning that metal as a feruchemical charge. What is happening is that the feruchemical charge overwrites the allomantic charge, and so you actually fuel feruchemy with allomancy, is what you are doing. Then if you just get out another piece of metal and store it in, since you’re not drawing the power from yourself, you’re cheating the system, you’re short-circuiting the system a little bit. So you can actually use the power that usually fuels allomancy, to fuel feruchemy, which you can then store in a metalmind, and basically build up these huge reservoirs of it. So what’s going on there is… imagine there’s like, an imprint, a wavelength, so to speak. A beat for an allomantic thing, that when you burn a metal, it says “ok, this is what power we give.” When it’s got that charge, it changes that beat and says, “now we get this power.” And you access a set of feruchemical power. That’s why compounding is so powerful.
(source)

 
And this:

Brandon Sanderson
I can explain this better in person because I know things that the characters in the book don’t. So, they haven’t worked a lot of this out. All the magic systems in my work are linked because the books all take place in the same universe. In Elantris, magic works by drawing symbols in the air. What actually happens is that when they draw a symbol, energy passes through it from another place (which is my get-out for the laws of thermodynamics) and the effect of that energy is moderated by the symbol. In one case it may become light, in another it may become fire. In Mistborn, the metals have a similar effect. The magic is not coming from the metal (even if some characters think it is). It is being drawn from the same place and moderated by the metal.
In the case of Feruchemy, no energy is being drawn from this other place. So, you spend a week sick and store up the ability to heal. It’s a balanced system, basically obeying the laws of thermodynamics. So, while it’s not real, it’s still rational.
In compounding, when you have the power of both Allomancy and Feruchemy, you draw power from the other place through the metal and it recognizes the power that is already stored—"Oh, this is healing, I know how to do that”—and so you get the power of Feruchemy but boosted by energy from the other place. This is how the Lord Ruler achieved immortality.
(source)

Edited January 16, 2015 by Moogle

[Pestis the Spider she/her]

Seeing as everyone else has gotten to all the multi-novel theories, I think I'll start small and look into what happens to a metal after it's consumed. This heory is based entirely upon the Alloy of Law Ars Arcanum "On the Three Metallic Arts":

"...Though the metals are consumed in the proccess, the power itself does not come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running."

 

In a similar fashion, the word catalyst is often used to describe an enzyme, which is a type of protein often found in a living being. To spare the details. an enzyme takes a chemical reaction and makes it require less energy in order to activate. The reaction does not come from the catalyst, but the reaction is easier because of the catalyst. When enzymes are depleted, they're recycled into the body. Assuming that metals are recycled in a similar fashion to enzymes, If you recycled enough of a certain metal, would that be how you become a savant? Does aluminum burning thusly help you become a savant?

Just the problem is that catalysts do not work this way. If allomantic metals were truly catalysts, they would be reausable, so you could "burn" the same metal over and over again, for as long as you have it inside you. But they're not, so it's bugging me for days now, why are metals called "catalysts" in Mistborn, when they're clearly used up during the process. So what actually happens to metals after being "burned". They're not there to be used for the second time, even though word "catalyst" suggest that they should. Maybe they're teleported to the place of their origin, like mines or something? But metals in mines are usually in form of ores, which are different chemically to the metal itself, so it still doesn't solve the problem of catalyst being recylced to its original form. Something weird is happening to metals, and it;s really bugging me that I can't understand it, because there is not enough information. Ugh.

 

If allomantic metals were absorbed into the body (normal metals in case of normal "humans from Earth" partially are usually, but I have no idea what about allomantic metals in Mistborn) that has to be completely separate process to being a catalyst, as "recycling" really doesn't mean "absorbing". Enzymes/catalysts/etc. usually stay where they are, in the same form they were at the beginnig. 

[Shadowborn]

As for where that came from, I was basing it on the belief that if metals in Allomancy were similar to enzymes used in chemical reactions, then all of the world is perfectly capable of producing the reactions, but it can't due to the fact that the metals lowered the energy requirement in the body that made the effects possible. For example, in HoA after Elend realizes what the mists were Snapping people in the armies, it's mentioned that the soldier's bodies know exactly how to process the metals. As for Lerasium, in that case it would be similar to a key, allowing the Allomantic metals to be accepted in the body and used for that reason. 

 

I've noticed since writing this that the energy required to produce an Allomantic effect is provided by an external source, which I'm assuming is Ruin and Preservation and the Allomantic reactions are not based entirely on natural science.

 

What I'm wondering is where the metals go. The metals probably could reform, but I assumed that was exclusive to Atium and Lerasium, because the metals were part of only one of the Shardholders (which is why the Well could open once per millennium and the Atium crystals could keep growing the metal.) Where else could they go?

[Moogle]

I've noticed since writing this that the energy required to produce an Allomantic effect is provided by an external source, which I'm assuming is Ruin and Preservation and the Allomantic reactions are not based entirely on natural science.

 

You're right, I think. Though: Allomancy is of Preservation. Preservation provides all the power when Allomantic metals are burned, with the exception of the god metals (which are themselves condensed Investiture, and actually are the power source burned, rather than the gateway). Ruin is only ever involved when atium is burned.

 

Master_Moridin

Why does Preservation fueling Allomancy not weaken Preservation compared to Ruin?

Brandon Sanderson

Because the power, once used, returns to him--much as water, after passing over a turbine, continues on in its system.

(source)

 

What I'm wondering is where the metals go. The metals probably could reform, but I assumed that was exclusive to Atium and Lerasium, because the metals were part of only one of the Shardholders (which is why the Well could open once per millennium and the Atium crystals could keep growing the metal.) Where else could they go?

 

This is a good question. I haven't the slightest clue. I feel like they might return to where they were mined, because in TES Shai remarks that each mined stone has where it was mined in its history. Each metal might similarly track where it came from. Or maybe they just return to the planet core, or something...

Edited January 16, 2015 by Moogle

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

You're reading too much into the word "catalyst". The simplest definition of the word is: "A person or thing that precipitates an event or change." It doesn't necessarily mean a biological catalyst.

 

And remember that when this magic system was being created, Sanderson came up with the effects first, then figured out the mechanics later. It's not going to make perfect sense, but then, neither do any of the magic systems (Feruchemy especially)

Edited January 16, 2015 by mckeedee123

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Just the problem is that catalysts do not work this way. If allomantic metals were truly catalysts, they would be reausable, so you could "burn" the same metal over and over again, for as long as you have it inside you. But they're not, so it's bugging me for days now, why are metals called "catalysts" in Mistborn, when they're clearly used up during the process. So what actually happens to metals after being "burned". They're not there to be used for the second time, even though word "catalyst" suggest that they should. Maybe they're teleported to the place of their origin, like mines or something? But metals in mines are usually in form of ores, which are different chemically to the metal itself, so it still doesn't solve the problem of catalyst being recylced to its original form. Something weird is happening to metals, and it;s really bugging me that I can't understand it, because there is not enough information. Ugh.

 

If allomantic metals were absorbed into the body (normal metals in case of normal "humans from Earth" partially are usually, but I have no idea what about allomantic metals in Mistborn) that has to be completely separate process to being a catalyst, as "recycling" really doesn't mean "absorbing". Enzymes/catalysts/etc. usually stay where they are, in the same form they were at the beginnig. 

 

I'll mention here again that in a 4-D system, the metals do meet the definition of catalyst. I would also like to point out this, in particular the first statement: catalyst history. Let us also remember that the Ars Arcanum, which is the only place metals are called catalysts, was written by an in-Cosmere character. This character might not truly know the definition of the word catalyst.

 

 

What I'm wondering is where the metals go. The metals probably could reform, but I assumed that was exclusive to Atium and Lerasium, because the metals were part of only one of the Shardholders (which is why the Well could open once per millennium and the Atium crystals could keep growing the metal.) Where else could they go?

 

As Moogle showed before, WoB is that the metals do return to the planet.

 

This is a good question. I haven't the slightest clue. I feel like they might return to where they were mined, because in TES Shai remarks that each mined stone has where it was mined in its history. Each metal might similarly track where it came from. Or maybe they just return to the planet core, or something...

 

I would think they would have to return to the site of mining. If the metals returned to the core of the planet, they are effectively lost to the population, and as a result there would be metal shortages at some point (probably by AoL time, if not then by Era 3 novels). If the metals return to the site of mining though, as ore, shortages would never occur unless a vast quantity of a metal is burned in a short period of time, causing a shortage during the time it takes for the metal to reform.

[Shadowborn]

So the metal returns to the place of it's mining and this only happens if a metal is burned, according to Kelsier (will get the quote for it soon.)

What happens if you burn metal from other planets, even if they are the same metal? Are they bound to the planet?

[Moogle]

I would think they would have to return to the site of mining. If the metals returned to the core of the planet, they are effectively lost to the population, and as a result there would be metal shortages at some point (probably by AoL time, if not then by Era 3 novels). If the metals return to the site of mining though, as ore, shortages would never occur unless a vast quantity of a metal is burned in a short period of time, causing a shortage during the time it takes for the metal to reform.

 

There is a WoB saying that Scadrial will eventually run out of metals which conflicts with the WoB about metals returning to the planet:

 

zebobes

Since allomancy is powered by burning metal, isn't Scadrial going to eventually start running out of metal?

Brandon Sandersom

It could happen. However, it's not really a danger with the current population of Allomancers. There just aren't enough of them.

(source)

Keep in mind this WOB is transcribed, and the WoB about them returning to the planet is paraphrased and a second-hand report. However, the metals-return-to-the-planet WoB is from 2013, and this one is from 2012. It may be Brandon changed his mind.

 

(Yay conflicting WoBs!)

 

What happens if you burn metal from other planets, even if they are the same metal? Are they bound to the planet?

 

We don't even know if you can burn non-Scadrian metals. We have a WoB that you could burn Soulcast metals, so it seems likely... but we don't know. (And where do those metals go?)

 

TheChronicFeruchemist

If I were to Soulcast pewter, the way Shallan does with the blood in The Way of Kings, would an Allomancer be able to use it?

Brandon Sanderson

You could create Allomantically viable metals, yes.

TheChronicFeruchemist

But is it automatic?

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that the pure metals are, but the alloys are not.

(source)

Edited January 16, 2015 by Moogle

[Shadowborn]

Soulcasting metals. Could you soulcast metalminds (empty or full) or Allomantic metals.

You probably could make alloys by soulcasting the pure metals and the components (e.g. cadmium and bismuth) then forging them together...but the world may never know.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Shadowborn

[Moogle]

Soulcasting metals. Could you soulcast metalminds (empty or full) or Allomantic metals.

You probably could make alloys by soulcasting the pure metals then forging them together...but the world may never know.

I imagine you can Soulcast alloys, but it's harder to do because it has to be a very specific percentage of one metal to another.

I think you can Soulcast "full" metalminds, at least in theory, much like Shai can in theory Forge herself a Shardblade out of thin air, but it's not going to be the default setting.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

There is a WoB saying that Scadrial will eventually run out of metals which conflicts with the WoB about metals returning to the planet:

 

Perhaps the mechanism is that when 1 gram of metal is burned, it returns as 1 gram of ore, and as a result Scadrial will eventually run out. That is pure speculation though.

 

As a side not, I feel conflicting WoBs are going to slowly become more prevalent as he canonizes more information. It is nice that he sometimes notes when his answer is not set in stone, but I have a feeling Brandon changing his mind about things, whether whimsically or because of real world science (thank you Peter for keeping things real), will result in a lot of answers conflicting with previous answers. We will have to begin taking dates into consideration.

[Moogle]

We will have to begin taking dates into consideration.

 

This is an excellent point. I'm actually working on a WoB-copying script to reduce the tedium of copypasting WoBs and figuring out source urls and appending #5's and the like. (I say working; it's actually done and I'm in the process of polishing it. I've actually been using it in my last few posts as I test it out.) I'll definitely make it post the date as well.

 

Edit: How does this look?

 

Argent

Can you talk about the technical details of the glyphs writing system in The Stormlight Archive?

Brandon Sanderson

The glyphs were designed by Isaac Stewart. He is my scribe, artist, and cartographer. He is also the art director at my company. We sat down and I wanted something symmetrical, so actually half of the glyph is repeated. When you read into it, it's symmetrical, and you can read them by the points where they slant, but you will have to go talk to him about exactly how to do it, because I say "I want a glyph for this" and he designs it. So they are readable and based on Arabic word art.

(source)

Edited January 16, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

This is an excellent point. I'm actually working on a WoB-copying script to reduce the tedium of copypasting WoBs and figuring out source urls and appending #5's and the like. (I say working; it's actually done and I'm in the process of polishing it. I've actually been using it in my last few posts as I test it out.) I'll definitely make it post the date as well.

 

I was going to do the same thing (create a file with the script) once I got some time available. If you do not mind, when you are done, would you be kind enough to share? If not I understand, it was probably hard work. Regardless, I hope it works well for you.

[Moogle]

I was going to do the same thing (create a file with the script) once I got some time available. If you do not mind, when you are done, would you be kind enough to share? If not I understand, it was probably hard work. Regardless, I hope it works well for you.

 

I originally created it to share. I'll make a thread on it when it's done in the next week or so.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

 

This is an excellent point. I'm actually working on a WoB-copying script to reduce the tedium of copypasting WoBs and figuring out source urls and appending #5's and the like. (I say working; it's actually done and I'm in the process of polishing it. I've actually been using it in my last few posts as I test it out.) I'll definitely make it post the date as well.

 

Edit: How does this look?

 

 

I do like the format. One thing to keep in mind is that by placing the source link in the quote, when someone quote your post, the WoB and the source link are lost, as evident by my uneditted quote above. That's why I always personally use spoilers (which would make it hard to place the date where you did) and place the source link outside of the spoiler. Those are my personal preferences though.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

We don't even know if you can burn non-Scadrian metals. We have a WoB that you could burn Soulcast metals, so it seems likely... but we don't know. (And where do those metals go?)

 

Actually we do have confirmation on that:

 

PhantomMonstrosity

Do synthetic gemstones work in fabrials too?

Brandon Sanderson

Synthetic gemstones should work. It's a combination of color and chemical structure that's important. Just like metals from off Scadrial would work for an Allomancer, synthetic gemstones should work.

 

(source)

[AerionBFII he/him]

A painful trip to the privy.

[Paragrin she/her]

If the metals are either absorbed into your body or oxidized/chemically bonded to whatever's in your stomach, they would eventually return to the planet. When you excrete them or die and decompose.

[Lord Pifferdoo he/him]

I bet Allomancers, Savants especially, have a tendency towards polynemia. 

[Shlee]

zebobes

Since allomancy is powered by burning metal, isn't Scadrial going to eventually start running out of metal?

Brandon Sandersom

It could happen. However, it's not really a danger with the current population of Allomancers. There just aren't enough of them.

(source)

Huh, apparently I've been reading this WoB differently than most. I always assumed that he just meant there eventually wouldn't be enough pure metal for all the allomancers to have some if there were a great number of them. I guess I was applying the whole "matter is neither created nor destroyed" idea to it, it never occurred to me that he might mean that there would eventually be no metal.

 

Also, I'm assuming you guys have considered, (and for some reason decided not to?) incorporate a WoB section into 17th Shard itself, instead of in theoryland? Seems like an organization like 17th shard would have a library  Even if it was just a forum that only specific people could add to, so they could all be posted, but everyone could see/source them to the same place, and then the answers would also pop up in a forum search, as opposing to have to search both here and on theoryland? (which, I hate the search and the interface there, but that's irrelevant) I've seen similar things before, and I've seen a couple of attempts at compilation threads, but there are too many WoBs....It needs its own forum with limits on who can create new threads, and each interview be a thread with comments locked down so it's ONLY the WoBs, and discussion has to take place elsewhere.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Shlee