Where do I learn about the mechanics of Surgebinding?

[Kipper he/him]

I have been way over my head in threads about the process and mechanics of various magic systems and wondered if anyone knows good threads to look at for a beginner's guide to Surgebinding/Investiture philosophy/theories/mechanics.

I would like to be able to discuss some theories I have, but I'm afraid that without the knowledge that some here have, I would be ripped apart. Plus, I'm a bit new to 17s. Got here yesterday.

Thanks.

Edited January 12, 2015 by inexorablePanda

[Mckeedee123 he/him]

Well, you have a lot of upvotes for only getting here yesterday. 

 

I'm fairly certain that Surgebinding deals with manipulating the spren that control the Realmatic laws of nature. A Surgebinder "manipulates" these spren by bribing them with Stormlight, using a Nahel-bonded spren as a sort of middleman.

 

I'm not sure if you were asking for an explanation, or...

[Moogle]

ALL COSMERE SPOILERS WARNING

 

Unfortunately, we know... well, very little. There's no real in-depth guides to how things work, because we don't know. Thousands of pages of theories have been written up, though.

 

If you haven't read through them, there's a lot of WoBs. Here's a list of interviews.

 

If you have specific questions to ask, or specific things people have said that confused you, it would help if you could write them all out.

 

---

As a quick primer which might help (please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere, fellow forumites!):

 

Magic Systems

Each Shard has an Intent. Honor, Odium, Cultivation. When a Shard Invests a planet (basically putting down roots and infusing the planet with their power), often times magic systems arise. How you access the magic system is based on the Intent of the Shard, though what the magic systems themselves can do is basically unlimited. For example, in Warbreaker (which has the Shard Endowment), one gains power by being endowed with Breath by others.

 

Magic systems are powered by Investiture, which can be thought of as the building blocks of the cosmere. Normally it comes from a specific Shard (which are themselves basically gigantic planet-sized globs of it(?)), but it doesn't have to - in Feruchemy, for example, the Investiture comes from the Feruchemist.

 

The Ars Arcanum of Mistborn explains this a little bit (note: I removed some extraneous stuff):

On Scadrial, there are three prime manifestations of Investiture. Locally, these are spoken of as the “Metallic Arts,” though there are other names for them. Allomancy is the most common of the three. It is end-positive, according to my terminology, meaning that the practitioner draws in power from an external source. The body then filters it into various forms. (The actual outlet of the power is not chosen by the practitioner, but instead is hardwritten into their Spiritweb.)

 

The key to drawing this power comes in the form of various types of metals, with specific compositions being required. Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running. In truth, this isn’t much different from the form-based Investitures one finds on Sel, where specific shape is the key—here, however, the interactions are more limited. Still, one cannot deny the raw power of Allomancy. It is instinctive and intuitive for the practitioner, as opposed to requiring a great deal of study and exactness, as one finds in the form-based Investitures of Sel.

 

Feruchemy is an end-neutral art, meaning that power is neither gained nor lost. The art also requires metal as a focus, but instead of being consumed, the metal acts as a medium by which abilities within the practitioner are shuttled through time. Invest that metal on one day, withdraw the power on another day. It is a well-rounded art, with some feelers in the Physical, some in the Cognitive, and even some in the Spiritual. The last powers are under heavy experimentation by the Terris community, and aren’t spoken of to outsiders.

 

Hemalurgy is an end-negative art. Some power is lost in the practice of it. Though many through history have maligned it as an “evil” art, none of the Investitures are actually evil. At its core, Hemalurgy deals with removing abilities—or attributes—from one person and bestowing them on another. It is primarily concerned with things of the Spiritual realm, and is of the greatest interest to me. If one of these three arts is of great interest to the Cosmere, it is this one. I think there are great possibilities for its use.

 

Each magic system seems to have a "focus". What a focus is we don't know exactly - but we do know that the focus of Allomancy is metals, the focus of Awakening is Commands, and the focus of AonDor seems to be symbols. Surgebinding's focus is not known - some people have suggested spren, or gemstones, or essences, or any number of things. (My own belief at this point is that it's all about bonds, since that would match Honor's Intent nicely, though I don't know how many people share my belies on that.)

 

Realmatics

The Cosmere has three realms, which is where it differs from our world.

 

The Physical: That which we see ourselves. Matter, etc.

The Cognitive: A realm with heavy connections to thought. In areas of the world where there are tons of people, the Cognitive Realm expands. Where there are less people, it contracts. This means that the void of space - where there are no thinking minds - is basically nonexistent in Shadesmar, which makes worldhopping very easy if you can get into this realm. The section of the Cognitive corresponding to Roshar is called Shadesmar.

The Spiritual: A realm dealing with ideals kinda-sorta based on Plato. Apparently has to do with connections as well.

 

Shai describes this in The Emperor's Soul:

“All things exist in three Realms, Gaotona. Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual. The Physical is what we feel, what is before us. The Cognitive is how an object is viewed and how it views itself. The Spiritual Realm contains an object’s soul— its essence—as well as the ways it is connected to the things and people around it.”

 

We know very little about Realmatics. The Spiritual is very mysterious.

 

Spiritwebs

You'll see mentions of sDNA (Spiritual DNA) or spiritwebs everywhere. We don't know what they are, but basically they have to do with each human's soul. For example, someone born on Sel is going to have a marker on them signifying that, and more specifically what area they're from.

 

Magic systems are often locked to your sDNA. Sel's magics are regional, which means if you don't have a marker on your spiritweb saying "hey I'm from Arelon", you don't get to be an Elantrian. Fortunately, you can 'hack' your sDNA through various methods (Hemalurgy, Forgery being the two notables).

 

When you bond a Shardblade, you have something in your spiritweb change. This is reflected in the Physical with changed eye color. Similarly, taking a Hemalurgic spike will change your spirit and this is often reflected in a Physical change - koloss turn blue, for example.

 

---

 

Again, specific questions or things that confuse you would be very helpful in explaining!

Edited January 13, 2015 by Moogle

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I'll add to Moogle's well rounded post a bit.

 

Calling a Shard a "gigantic, planet sized glob of [investiture]" is a little misleading. It's not like there is this entity just floating next to a planet that you can see Physically (though Shards do manifest Physically, and I presume Cognitively and Spiritually as well). I do not think we know much about what a Shard looks like, if one could even see it, outside of the three main phases of matter (which really makes me wonder if they also manifest as plasma). The Hero of Ages gives us some details on this though.

 

Note that the bit in Moogle's spoiler tag is a direct quote. Phrases like "according to my terminology" are written in the book, as the Ars Arcanums are written by an in-Cosmere character.

 

Moogle, I am in your boat with Bonds being the focus on Roshar. It makes the most sense to me, currently.

 

Though Moogle is correct in saying we do not know much about Realmatics, our ignorance does not stop us from theorizing. This link will take you to a theory by Kurkistan that heavily details his thoughts on Realmatics. Please note though that it is still just a theory, and according to Brandon is merely "along the right lines," not absolutely correct. I've seen some members on this site forget that, given Kurk's detail and thorough-ness (which I applaud).

 

Also good job Moogle.

[Kipper he/him]

Thanks.

What do you mean when you say that bonds are the focus?

[Moogle]

FULL COSMERE SPOILERS 

 

Calling a Shard a "gigantic, planet sized glob of [investiture]" is a little misleading. It's not like there is this entity just floating next to a planet that you can see Physically (though Shards do manifest Physically, and I presume Cognitively and Spiritually as well). I do not think we know much about what a Shard looks like, if one could even see it, outside of the three main phases of matter (which really makes me wonder if they also manifest as plasma). The Hero of Ages gives us some details on this though.

 

I agree, we don't really know much about this. Brandon's described the formation of atium/lerasium as "Spiritual humidity", though, so my mental model is more that each Shard sort of acts as a liquid that is soaked up by the planet. The Shard is then planet-sized, infusing everything on it, and sort of existing in phase with the planet. That's entirely speculation, though.

 

What do you mean when you say that bonds are the focus?

 

Each magic system has a focus of sorts, which directs the magic(?). Note: we know focuses are a thing, but we do not know exactly what they are, except that Brandon has used the word. The following is therefore slightly speculation:

 

In Allomancy, metals are the focus by WoB. Two differing metals will give you two different powers. In Awakening, Commands are the focus by WoB. Two Commands give you two different effects. On Sel, though it's not confirmed, we have the various forms/shapes. Two different Aons will do two different things.

 

(This is confused by the part where you don't need a focus: Vin using the mists to power Allomancy no longer required metals, which suggests the actual powers were coded into her spiritweb. The Alloy Ars Arcanum supports this.)

 

On Roshar... well, we don't know. Spren could be the focus; different spren give you different powers. Gemstones might be involved somewhere, because each order of Radiants is associated with a different one. However, this doesn't explain Honorblades - if spren are the focus, then bonding an Honorblade shouldn't give Surgebinding. But if the focus is bonds (as in, Spiritual bonds, connections to things you know well, etc.), then this fits things well: you bond to an Honorblade, and gain powers. You bond to a spren, you gain powers. You bond to a Radiant, and you get to be a squire, etc. We know that if someone with a bonded Seon came to Roshar, they'd gain powers, and as speculation apparently there's going to be something involved with Nightblood as well, since he also bonds with people who draw him.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Moogle

[Pestis the Spider she/her]

 

Though the metal is consumed in the process, the power itself doesn’t actually come from the metal. The metal is a catalyst, you might say, that begins an Investiture and keeps it running.

I just want to point out that metal cannot be simply a catalyst if it's consumed in the reaction, because that is simply not the way the catalysts work. Were metals actually called catalysts in Misborn? Did I miss something?

[Moogle]

I just want to point out that metal cannot be simply a catalyst if it's consumed in the reaction, because that is simply not the way the catalysts work. Were metals actually called catalysts in Misborn? Did I miss something?

 

The quoted text is from the back of Alloy of Law. It's written by an in-universe character, but metals are not called catalysts anywhere else in the novels.

 

A catalyst is normally something not consumed which helps along a reaction, so I think the word is being used a bit differently here. Brandon was majoring in biochemistry for a while, so it's unlikely he doesn't know what a catalyst is in chemical reactions.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Moogle

[Pestis the Spider she/her]

The quoted text is from the back of Alloy of Law. It's written by an in-universe character, but metals are not called catalysts anywhere else in the novels.

 

A catalyst is normally something not consumed which helps along a reaction, so I think the word is being used a bit differently here. Brandon was majoring in biochemistry for a while, so it's unlikely he doesn't know what a catalyst is in chemical reactions.

Huh, that explains it. I've only read the Mistborn trilogy so far, so no wonder, I didn't notice it. Well I don't want to discuss the origin of the word "catalyst" in the book, because that's really not the right topic, I think. I still think that it may be a mistake, which can happen to even the best of people, but maybe I'm simple cannot see Brandon's idea behind that word. I'll read Alloy of Law, and then I'll think about it some more, maybe the book will clear it up for me. 

[Moogle]

Huh, that explains it. I've only read the Mistborn trilogy so far, so no wonder, I didn't notice it. Well I don't want to discuss the origin of the word "catalyst" in the book, because that's really not the right topic, I think. I still think that it may be a mistake, which can happen to even the best of people, but maybe I'm simple cannot see Brandon's idea behind that word. I'll read Alloy of Law, and then I'll think about it some more, maybe the book will clear it up for me. 

 

Metals are not really consumed by Allomancy - they return to the planet, much like atium continually regrows in the geodes. We have a paraphrased WoB on that somewhere, though I can't for the life of me find it. That's still not quite what a catalyst is in chemistry, but I don't think it's too wrong. We'll see in the future!

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Moogle

 

Here's the WoB. That one's so annoying to find that it gets a place in my "Impossible to find" folder.

 

@Blaze

 

Thanks for the applause. It is indeed my diabolical plan for everyone to eventually just start assuming I'm right.   

Edited January 13, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Blaze1616 he/him]

@Blaze

 

Thanks for the applause. It is indeed my diabolical plan for everyone to eventually just start assuming I'm right.   

 

Praise is given where praise is deserved, as my make believe grandfather used to say. But in all seriousness, whether that was your plan or not, it is happening

 

As for the catalyst discussion, I would argue that the term applies. The issue is with the size of your system. If your system is the allomancer, then the metal is consumed. If your system, however, is the planet Scadrial, the metal is not consumed, as the total amount of metal on Scadrial is constant at any given moment (not including space bound objects entering/leaving and those pesky worldhoppers). That does assume the metal returning to the planet is instantaneous (which it isn't). Then the issue becomes your system in 4-dimensions. Given infinite time, though, the metal on Scadrial is roughly constant, particularly if the only activity occuring within the system is an allomancer burning a metal. In such a case, the term catalyst applies.

Edited January 13, 2015 by Blaze1616

[natc]

I would think, by referring to the metals as "catalysts", the implication is that they are the . . . thing . . . that draws forth the investiture from its source, but themselves don't really contain anything. Going with the whole chemistry analogy again, they are used up and dump out on the planet again somewhere, unlike chemical catalysts, but they do help initiate the "reaction" that changes the "reactant" form of the investiture into the "product" form that you actually need to shoot people with coins, slow down time, or what have you.  And I do say help it happen because the shards can totally force the magic to work by itself if they felt like it. Allomancy runs on Mist as well as it does with metal.

 

 

And I guess the metal really does supposedly come back somehow, so really it's still here and not part of the end product. Not a perfect analogy, but it's still a better one than whatever analogy one can produce to explain how inhaling hard next to a gem that's been out in bad weather for too long lets you freefall downwards and miss the ground completely.

[Rybal]

FULL COSMERE SPOILERS 

 

 

I agree, we don't really know much about this. Brandon's described the formation of atium/lerasium as "Spiritual humidity", though, so my mental model is more that each Shard sort of acts as a liquid that is soaked up by the planet. The Shard is then planet-sized, infusing everything on it, and sort of existing in phase with the planet. That's entirely speculation, though.

 

 

Each magic system has a focus of sorts, which directs the magic(?). Note: we know focuses are a thing, but we do not know exactly what they are, except that Brandon has used the word. The following is therefore slightly speculation:

 

In Allomancy, metals are the focus by WoB. Two differing metals will give you two different powers. In Awakening, Commands are the focus by WoB. Two Commands give you two different effects. On Sel, though it's not confirmed, we have the various forms/shapes. Two different Aons will do two different things.

 

(This is confused by the part where you don't need a focus: Vin using the mists to power Allomancy no longer required metals, which suggests the actual powers were coded into her spiritweb. The Alloy Ars Arcanum supports this.)

 

On Roshar... well, we don't know. Spren could be the focus; different spren give you different powers. Gemstones might be involved somewhere, because each order of Radiants is associated with a different one. However, this doesn't explain Honorblades - if spren are the focus, then bonding an Honorblade shouldn't give Surgebinding. But if the focus is bonds (as in, Spiritual bonds, connections to things you know well, etc.), then this fits things well: you bond to an Honorblade, and gain powers. You bond to a spren, you gain powers. You bond to a Radiant, and you get to be a squire, etc. We know that if someone with a bonded Seon came to Roshar, they'd gain powers, and as speculation apparently there's going to be something involved with Nightblood as well, since he also bonds with people who draw him.

 

I'd agree that bonds are the focus on Roshar. You have the references to bonding Blades and the Nahel bond, but I also seem to recall an epigraph that specifically referenced the PLACEMENT of the Nahel bond as being relevent.

[Kipper he/him]

I'd agree that bonds are the focus on Roshar. You have the references to bonding Blades and the Nahel bond, but I also seem to recall an epigraph that specifically referenced the PLACEMENT of the Nahel bond as being relevent.

Here it is:

"They also, when they had settled their rulings in the nature of each bond's placement, called the name of it the Nahel bond, with regard to its effect upon the souls of those caught in its grip; in this description, each was related to the bonds that drive Roshar itself, ten Surges, named in turn and two for each order; in this light, it can be seen that each order would be necessity share one Surge with each of its neighbors."

[Xaladin he/him]

So that's why worldhoppers hop using the Cognitive Realm

Edit: <this is in response to Moogle. The quote button doesn't work for me, for some reason>

Edited January 17, 2015 by Xaladin

[Moogle]

So that's why worldhoppers hop using the Cognitive Realm

Edit: <this is in response to Moogle. The quote button doesn't work for me, for some reason>

 

Indeed! It's clever. Also, the site does seem to be having weird issues with quotes and the like. Here's the WoB, since I was too lazy to paste it:

Nepene (March 2013)

I suppose one thing to wonder is how do you enter Shadesmar? We know of a number of people who are jumping from world to world through Shadesmar. Grump Thinker and Blunt, Hoid too. How are they accessing the cognitive plane to transport themselves across the lands?

Presumably Shallan's bond with the truthspren let her get in. How does this work? If she had only a dim sphere then does it not require any stormlight, any spiritual power? Is it a purely cognitive change? I could see some advantages to that. You could hop into this alternative dimension at will if you were being attacked, even with little power.

The scholars earlier talk of whether there is food in Shadesmar, so presumably others have visited it. Can non soulcasters visit it? Is there some fabrial that grants you access? Are they only referring to the distant past, when KR had the power to access it? Is it purely a thing of the mind that anyone can learn? Is it only possible if you have access to a splinter of a shard?

And on an unrelated question, they have symbols on their heads. If Shallan managed to draw one of these would it be some glyph? Perhaps some glyph that we would recognize, like the glyphs in the artwork at the front?

Brandon Sanderson

There are many ways to enter Shadesmar. You'll see more of this in the future. One thing to keep in mind about Shadesmar is that space where things are thinking is expanded, while space where there is nothing to think is contracted. In other words, in an empty void, you get almost no Shadesmar. This makes distances as we think of them very different there.

As for the symbols making up the heads of the cryptics, those are not glyphs. But it's possible you would recognize them...

(source)