Merlock Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) I know I'm late to the game since this book was published a number of years ago. I just got to finish reading this novel and had a question on guns and steel pushing. As for my question: How come the two metal pushers and pullers Wax was fighting at the end of the novel weren't able to just push or pull Wax's gun away? DId I miss something since I don't recall anything about him using an aluminium gun. Thanks and I apologize if this question has been asked/answered before. A quick search by me didn't bring up anything. Edited January 11, 2015 by Merlock 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjustice99 she/her Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 If he was using Vindication, it cannot be pushed because it is made of aluminum, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlock Posted January 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) Thanks for the quick reply. I have a bad memory but if I recall correctly, Vindcation was made by Ranette and she didn't yet make any aluminum guns and that is why she was eager to get her hands on the one Wax had. Another question, is how did Wax face other allomancers who can pull/push on metals if he was using metal guns? Edited January 10, 2015 by Merlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Most of the time Wax wouldn't have been facing other allomancers, and even when he was, the chance of them being a lurcher or coinshot would be about 1/8. I would look up the info on Vindication, but my copy of the book isn't handy. For what it's worth, the coppermind says that Vindication is made of "Invarian Steel" but that means nothing to me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 vinducation was not made of aluminium. Push and Pull could affect it. I don't know why they didn't. anyway, neither of them was killed by the gun, so it matters little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mckeedee123 he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 They did push and pull it, if I recall correctly. I specifically remember one of them trying to hit it against the wall to break it early on in the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth she/her Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I suddenly have this notion that a Steelrunner might commission custom-designed guns made with feruchemical quality steel specifically so that they can charge the things to make them harder to push and pull.... 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cstryon he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I suddenly have this notion that a Steelrunner might commission custom-designed guns made with feruchemical quality steel specifically so that they can charge the things to make them harder to push and pull....I am all about this! (Mistborn are really cool, but Feruchemists are so much cooler in my opinion). But that still leaves a risk. Even if a stealrunner charged his gun, he still risks a chance that a strong enough coinshot/lurcher could manipulate his gun. I can't help but think of Vin yanking the bracers of the Lord Ruler. Of course she was charged up with the mists.... But at what point are you strong enough to manipulate invested metal... It's guess it's hard to gauge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nahlion Dahlyr he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I am all about this! (Mistborn are really cool, but Feruchemists are so much cooler in my opinion). But that still leaves a risk. Even if a stealrunner charged his gun, he still risks a chance that a strong enough coinshot/lurcher could manipulate his gun. I can't help but think of Vin yanking the bracers of the Lord Ruler. Of course she was charged up with the mists.... But at what point are you strong enough to manipulate invested metal... It's guess it's hard to gauge. What I suppose could be done is that the Steelrunner could have the gun made mostly of aluminum, but have a little open-up compartment to an inner core of steel. Not sure, but I believe that anything coated by aluminum is protected from allomancy, this raises the question of how a large an aluminum hat must be to prevent the effects of emotional allomancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth she/her Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) I am all about this! (Mistborn are really cool, but Feruchemists are so much cooler in my opinion). But that still leaves a risk. Even if a stealrunner charged his gun, he still risks a chance that a strong enough coinshot/lurcher could manipulate his gun. I can't help but think of Vin yanking the bracers of the Lord Ruler. Of course she was charged up with the mists.... But at what point are you strong enough to manipulate invested metal... It's guess it's hard to gauge. Oh, there's definitely a risk; there's a WoB that states that a charged metalmind is on the "medium" part of the spectrum of "hard to push/pull". But if you're going to carry a gun anyway, then it makes sense to use every tool in your chest to make it just a little bit safer for you. What I suppose could be done is that the Steelrunner could have the gun made mostly of aluminum, but have a little open-up compartment to an inner core of steel. Not sure, but I believe that anything coated by aluminum is protected from allomancy, this raises the question of how a large an aluminum hat must be to prevent the effects of emotional allomancy. Well, sure, if you have the resources to afford an aluminum gun. Most people aren't going to, and I think the only reason The Set pulled it off is because they stole the aluminum. Edited January 11, 2015 by Kaymyth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king of nowhere Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 a feruchemically active metal may not be good for a weapon. a gun is subjected to significant wear and tear because it hosts a small explosion in it. it is mentioned in the book that aluminium guns are not as good as regular ones. so haveing a weapon with sub-par performance may be a poor exchange for only limited resistance to allomancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth she/her Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 a feruchemically active metal may not be good for a weapon. a gun is subjected to significant wear and tear because it hosts a small explosion in it. it is mentioned in the book that aluminium guns are not as good as regular ones. so haveing a weapon with sub-par performance may be a poor exchange for only limited resistance to allomancy Well, there's a pretty big gap between aluminum and feruchemical-quality steel. Aluminum is a relatively soft metal, whereas steel is the usual metal of preference for making firearms in the first place. Charging the steel shouldn't change any of its physical properties, so it's really more a matter of how durable the precise Metallic Arts mix is compared to gun-quality steel. There could also be some layering done, where the firing chamber is a stronger alloy mix, while the barrel and grip are different. There's a lot of experimentation that a gunsmith and metallurgist could do with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 They did push and pull it, if I recall correctly. I specifically remember one of them trying to hit it against the wall to break it early on in the fight. Just wanted to add a confirmation to this. I skimmed through some of the later chapters in the book, and Push definitely does push against Vindication (~p 323 in my copy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Well, there's a pretty big gap between aluminum and feruchemical-quality steel. Aluminum is a relatively soft metal, whereas steel is the usual metal of preference for making firearms in the first place. Charging the steel shouldn't change any of its physical properties, so it's really more a matter of how durable the precise Metallic Arts mix is compared to gun-quality steel. There could also be some layering done, where the firing chamber is a stronger alloy mix, while the barrel and grip are different. There's a lot of experimentation that a gunsmith and metallurgist could do with it. Seconded. If this is something that a Ferruchemist thought they wanted to do, then it should be possible to make the body of the gun separate from the firing chamber. This way you could have whatever metal you wanted for use as a metalmind, with whatever metal the gunsmith wanted for use in the firing chamber, then just attach them together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahak he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I suddenly have this notion that a Steelrunner might commission custom-designed guns made with feruchemical quality steel specifically so that they can charge the things to make them harder to push and pull.... I was thinking forging the gun out of old Inquisitor eyespikes, so they are invested. Of course IIRC we see metalminds and spikes affected with steelpushes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth she/her Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I was thinking forging the gun out of old Inquisitor eyespikes, so they are invested. Of course IIRC we see metalminds and spikes affected with steelpushes. Well, Inquisitor spikes are a lot harder to come by, and knowledge of hemalurgy is still pretty limited even in AoL. Metalminds can be affected by steelpushes and ironpulls, but it's more difficult than an uninvested piece of metal. And, I believe, less difficult than metal that pierces the skin. So again, it's not a fix-all, but if were a Steelrunner who used a gun at all, darned skippy I'd throw some charge into my weapon(s) just for that little extra peace of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Well, Inquisitor spikes are a lot harder to come by, and knowledge of hemalurgy is still pretty limited even in AoL. Metalminds can be affected by steelpushes and ironpulls, but it's more difficult than an uninvested piece of metal. And, I believe, less difficult than metal that pierces the skin. So again, it's not a fix-all, but if were a Steelrunner who used a gun at all, darned skippy I'd throw some charge into my weapon(s) just for that little extra peace of mind. well, but presumably most people in that world aren't aware that investiture makes things harder to affect. maybe by the time of the final mistborn series... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth she/her Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 well, but presumably most people in that world aren't aware that investiture makes things harder to affect. maybe by the time of the final mistborn series... Actually, I think they'd figure out pretty quickly that metalminds are harder to affect. If I were a Coinshot or Lurcher up against a ferring, the first thing I'd try to do is mess with their equilibrium by Pushing or Pulling on their metalminds. I don't see how that could avoid being common knowledge by Alloy of Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I don't see how that could avoid being common knowledge by Alloy of Law. Several contributing factors. Not all that many people are Mistings at all (Yes, more than in the Final Empire, but not exactly common), let alone coinshots and lurchers. Let alone Coinshots and Lurchers who have frequent occasion to get into armed conflict with Ferrings of any flavor. True, there'd be an upspike because people with power in a society like that will more frequently try to skirt the law, and be in conflict with other criminals or empowered law enforcement, but it's still a rare enough circumstance. You also presuppose a common acceptance of true facts. This is a world without even telegraphs, with newspapers used as much for fanciful tellings of stories that spread disinformation about the Metallic Arts as they are for factual data. Even in today's world, with scientific institutes and a general level of education far above what would be common in Elendel, there are people who think vaccines cause autism or that global warming isn't a real thing. In conclusion, there would be a small group of people who have direct knowledge of the fact that it's more difficult to Push on a metalmind. These people might even feel a compulsion to share this information. The average person on Scadrial might or might not get this information, or one of a dozen other completely inaccurate accounts claiming to be just as accurate, with no way to know which are correct and which are false. Now, the specific people who would care about this data are within the subset of people who'd be best able to get direct knowledge. For example, if I were a Coinshot who wanted to grow up to be a lawman (i.e., someone who would expect to run into feruchemists and possibly exchange fire with them), I would likely try to learn from a man like Wax, who could tell me from direct experience. I'm just pointing out that it prolly isn't common knowledge, just specialized knowledge. That said... we see Wax Push on Wayne's goldminds at least twice, once to give him a boost during the Wedding fight and again when Marasi observes them check out the warehouse. So "harder to Push on" might not mean "hard enough to Push on to warrant potentially wasting a reserve that takes time and effort to build up, also my gun is now made of inferior quality material." I'm no gunsmith, but I suspect you can't swap out enough pieces of your gun to make it worth your while to Invest them without making serious sacrifices in quality. Which would you rather have? A gun of decent quality, with the trait that it has a very slight advantage over a very, very small percentage of the people you'll be fighting? Or a gun that is good quality no matter who you're fighting? On the flip side, remember that Sazed was able to charge an iron grate and a steel lock. Presumably the jail was not built with "let's make it easy for feruchemists to break out" in mind, so it's doubtful that either of them were all that specifically pure. Meaning, a firing chamber made of Invarian steel might make a lousy metalmind, but it can still be a metalmind. If you're lucky enough to be a Steelrunner, and you don't mind wasting days or weeks inefficiently storing a bunch of speed you're never going to get the chance to actually use so that a Lurcher will have to put a bit more effort into pulling your gun out of your hand... well, then have at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I'd also note that, of that small percentage who have the ability and opportunity to learn that metalminds are harder to push/pull on, many of them may not actually notice, or may not make the connection between the object being a metalmind and it being harder to affect. They might just assume that there is something else that is making it harder. maybe the person whose metalmind it is is heavier than they look, or something. Basically short of being a coinshot/lurcher scientist, a person might not actually make the full connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterAhlstrom he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 The more Invested a metalmind is, the harder it is to push/pull. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kipper he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Similar to how Szeth can't lash Shardplate very well. It has to do with Investiture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oudeis he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Not that I actually expect an answer but... can you give us a few absolute data points? Like, if a clip were as Invested with memories as it could be, does that mean it couldn't be pushed by an Era-1 Coinshot at all? That it would require effort and concentration but not be impossible? Cuz "harder" might mean that you can only apply 49.5N to the clip rather than the full 50N. (Admittedly pulling these numbers out of a hat; not sure if we have non-MAG sources on how fast coins can actually fly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkum he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 (edited) In Marsh's fight with Sazed in WoA, he pushes a bunch of metalminds into Sazed's chest. I don't think we have a good indication of exactly how Marsh's steelpush strength would compare to an average allomancer from that time, but it seems likely that if he can push invested metalminds hard enough to embed them into Sazed's skin, then a normal coinshot could probably push on them without expending too too much extra effort. for what it's worth this WoB lists a charged metalmind as being moderately hard to push on. harder than a hemalurgic spike, btu easier than a shardblade: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1047#12 Edited January 12, 2015 by Dunkum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth she/her Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) In Marsh's fight with Sazed in WoA, he pushes a bunch of metalminds into Sazed's chest. I don't think we have a good indication of exactly how Marsh's steelpush strength would compare to an average allomancer from that time, but it seems likely that if he can push invested metalminds hard enough to embed them into Sazed's skin, then a normal coinshot could probably push on them without expending too too much extra effort. for what it's worth this WoB lists a charged metalmind as being moderately hard to push on. harder than a hemalurgic spike, btu easier than a shardblade: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1047#12 These are true facts. It's hard to know exactly where it falls on the scale of usefulness vs. energy spent without actually having Coinshots, Lurchers, and Steelrunners to use as guinea pigs test with. I could see a Compounder doing it, though, because why not? Heck, I could see a double steel Twinborn charging every bit of steel in their possession, just because they can. Is it steel? --> yes Can I eat it? --> no Charge it! Edited January 13, 2015 by Kaymyth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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