Feruchemical Zinc and Allomantic Atium

[Voidus]

But keep in mind that Atium hasn't only been used in terms of close range one-on one combat it has been used in all kinds of combat situations, I find it extremely unrealistic that in none of those fights did anyone ever change their mind, additionally as you say even in one-on-one fights it is mostly action reaction, very little conscious decision making and so no decisions, if atium worked as basically a mind reading prophecy then it would actually work quite poorly in these sitations.

For atium to work as we have read and yet work through something like mind-reading all combatants vs. Seers or Mistborn would have to consciously make a decision about their next action (from which the atium could predict their immediate future) but then never alter that decision. I'll get my copy of the book for some quotes but it is strongly implicated by Vin that she was only able to split her atium shadow because Zane let her see the future through his own actions, it had little to do with making a sudden decision change.

[Aminar]

She didn't see the future. She saw muscle twitches that hinted at his action. This is something done in fights at high levels. Atium burners will rarely if ever fight someone with that level of skill because anybody that good knows to run anyway or has an Atium countermeasure. Mental speed already allows for this to an extent by speeding up the ability percieve said twitches. But its rare in fights to do other than what you think. I suppose one thing to look for would be how Atium sees someone dying midfight... If it shows the person dying it is the future. If it shows them doing something despite the fact they are about to die its thought. I don't think there are any scenarios like that in the books though. Maybe at elends final stand...

[Cracknut]

She didn't see the future. She saw muscle twitches that hinted at his action. This is something done in fights at high levels. Atium burners will rarely if ever fight someone with that level of skill because anybody that good knows to run anyway or has an Atium countermeasure. Mental speed already allows for this to an extent by speeding up the ability percieve said twitches. But its rare in fights to do other than what you think. I suppose one thing to look for would be how Atium sees someone dying midfight... If it shows the person dying it is the future. If it shows them doing something despite the fact they are about to die its thought. I don't think there are any scenarios like that in the books though. Maybe at elends final stand...

Yes but I think Atium doesn't shows people dying only if Seer is the one who is killing. Because Seer changes future by using knowledge of future in his own advantage. And again about 'fighting skill and mental speed and so on': Zane's reaction was to future, not present. He was blocking attack that wasn't even launched yet. It happened because he was too confident in his own powers. Therefore he actually gave Vin information about future and as I said in posts above, only way to change 'future' is to know exactly what it is.

Lets say you're going to punch someone in face and he had no way of knowing that you were punching him in face(if not knowing the future) and before you even tried hitting him he covered his face. Of course you change your course and hit him in stomach. Its totally under Seer's powers to change 'future'. He can even tell his opponent before he does something that he knows what he's going to do and tell him what his reaction will be and how it will end. If that happens before Seer's opponent does something he's action will change even if he won't think about it and we'll get another set of shadows.

Its not WoT type 'future'. No string that lead you somewhere not caring about your will. It just shows whatever is going to happen. Without 'Atium' or any other way to look into future there is no way to change it. Whatever you do, whatever happens, that will be future. Will it be your free will or not.

Go watch movie named 'Next'. If I remember correctly it's explained well there.

Edited August 20, 2012 by 213

[Aminar]

Yes but I think Atium doesn't shows people dying only if Seer is the one who is killing. Because Seer changes future by using knowledge of future in his own advantage. And again about 'fighting skill and mental speed and so on': Zane's reaction was to future, not present. He was blocking attack that wasn't even launched yet. It happened because he was too confident in his own powers. Therefore he actually gave Vin information about future and as I said in posts above, only way to change 'future' is to know exactly what it is.

Lets say you're going to punch someone in face and he had no way of knowing that you were punching him in face(if not knowing the future) and before you even tried hitting him he covered his face. Of course you change your course and hit him in stomach. Its totally under Seer's powers to change 'future'. He can even tell his opponent before he does something that he knows what he's going to do and tell him what his reaction will be and how it will end. If that happens before Seer's opponent does something he's action will change even if he won't think about it and we'll get another set of shadows.

Its not WoT type 'future'. No string that lead you somewhere not caring about your will. It just shows whatever is going to happen. Without 'Atium' or any other way to look into future there is no way to change it. Whatever you do, whatever happens, that will be future. Will it be your free will or not.

Go watch movie named 'Next'. If I remember correctly it's explained well there.

Before I reply you should learn to us 'the' if you want to be easily intelligible. It may be unnecessary technically(the word being invented by Shakespeare from what I recall), but it makes your posts very hard to read and thus having a discussion with you very very annoying.

I don't buy Zane's overconfidence. Vin doesn't see the future. She predicts the future based on things happening in the present. Using Atium works the same way. You see things in the present that allow for knowledge of the future. Atium does not see the future it sees a possible future, or in the case of someone burning the right metals, all possible futures. Where it gets that information is implied to be based on thought. I say this because it never seems to account for the actions of anyone but the person being seen(hence not showing a person dying despite the fact they do within the allowable future window(until the fatal wound has been delivered.).

Now philosophically your explanation of how to "change the future" might make sense, but again, given Brandon's personal philosophy and the fact Vin tricked Atium, it does not stop free will. If what Atium showed can change then there has to be a way to change it. That change happened once. Thus it takes extraordinary levels of something to change what Atium saw. Those things are either A: Inhumanly fast perceptions(which is what is described) or inhumanly fast speed(which both were operating at to begin with. Those perceptions would be tied to mental speed. The last options are Atium and Electrum.

[Cracknut]

Before I reply you should learn to us 'the' if you want to be easily intelligible. It may be unnecessary technically(the word being invented by Shakespeare from what I recall), but it makes your posts very hard to read and thus having a discussion with you very very annoying.

I don't buy Zane's overconfidence. Vin doesn't see the future. She predicts the future based on things happening in the present. Using Atium works the same way. You see things in the present that allow for knowledge of the future. Atium does not see the future it sees a possible future, or in the case of someone burning the right metals, all possible futures. Where it gets that information is implied to be based on thought. I say this because it never seems to account for the actions of anyone but the person being seen(hence not showing a person dying despite the fact they do within the allowable future window(until the fatal wound has been delivered.).

Now philosophically your explanation of how to "change the future" might make sense, but again, given Brandon's personal philosophy and the fact Vin tricked Atium, it does not stop free will. If what Atium showed can change then there has to be a way to change it. That change happened once. Thus it takes extraordinary levels of something to change what Atium saw. Those things are either A: Inhumanly fast perceptions(which is what is described) or inhumanly fast speed(which both were operating at to begin with. Those perceptions would be tied to mental speed. The last options are Atium and Electrum.

I'm sorry for my bad English.

You misunderstood me. I agree with first post. With enhanced mental speed it would've been easier to detect changes in Seer's body. But what I'm trying to say is that you can't change future without seeing it first. Not because its written in stone but because whatever you do, it is/was 'future'. You do it with free will or not you can't tell you changed whatever was going to happen or not, but most likely you did whatever you must have done according to future, if that makes sense. Also whenever you see future, it changes. You don't do anymore what you would've done otherwise and it starts chain reaction affecting whole world... in different degrees but still. Yes Atium shadows may not be 100% true but at least 99.9% because as far as we know every other time characters burned Atium everything happened according to the future it showed. Though I find version where 'Vin saw future through Zane's action' more awesome and interesting then 'just fighting skills'. Though I don't know how does Brandon's personal philosophy affect all of this.

Edited August 20, 2012 by 213

[Aminar]

I'm sorry for my bad English.

You misunderstood me. I agree with first post. With enhanced mental speed it would've been easier to detect changes in Seer's body. But what I'm trying to say is that you can't change future without seeing it first. Not because its written in stone but because whatever you do, it is/was 'future'. You do it with free will or not you can't tell you changed whatever was going to happen or not, but most likely you did whatever you must have done according to future, if that makes sense. Also whenever you see future, it changes. You don't do anymore what you would've done otherwise and it starts chain reaction affecting whole world... in different degrees but still. Yes Atium shadows may not be 100% true but at least 99.9% because as far as we know every other time characters burned Atium everything happened according to the future it showed. Though I find version where 'Vin saw future through Zane's action' more awesome and interesting then 'just fighting skills'. Though I don't know how does Brandon's personal philosophy affect all of this.

Writers tend to put their philosophy into their works. Brandon's is subtle, but he's deeply religious. Specifically he's mormon. One of the big things evident in all of his work is that there is always hope for those that try hard enough, that things get better. This is tied to his religious beliefs. As is a belief in free will, which is a part of what I just said.

I think I get what you're saying. I don't agree with it, but that might just be a difference in personal philosophies. While i'm not religous per-say I do believe in free will, and thus when I see something with future sight I tend to assume it is designed in a way that allows for free will unless the author says otherwise. Given Brandon's views I can't see him writing in a way that robs people of free will unless it's an important point within the story, which the exact metaphysics of Atium are not.

[Cracknut]

Writers tend to put their philosophy into their works. Brandon's is subtle, but he's deeply religious. Specifically he's mormon. One of the big things evident in all of his work is that there is always hope for those that try hard enough, that things get better. This is tied to his religious beliefs. As is a belief in free will, which is a part of what I just said.

I think I get what you're saying. I don't agree with it, but that might just be a difference in personal philosophies. While i'm not religous per-say I do believe in free will, and thus when I see something with future sight I tend to assume it is designed in a way that allows for free will unless the author says otherwise. Given Brandon's views I can't see him writing in a way that robs people of free will unless it's an important point within the story, which the exact metaphysics of Atium are not.

Nah you don't understand me... Idk it may be my English though. Last try:

Whatever you do. Free will or not. Its whatever 'future' is/was. Not because some god wrote down your future, not because theres some great prophecy binding you to it but because you chose to do that, you did that. It was your future whatever you did. You can't change 'whatever that is', not because you don't have free will, but because choice made with your free will also is part of that future.

[Aminar]

I think what this comes down to is Atium is treated as a large mystery.

[Voidus]

Just to clear things up here (as I think 213 and I are on the same page) a deterministic prophecy doesn't necessarily negate free will, it simply can predict what that free will will choose, this doesn't change your ability to chose to do it in the first place.

Once again on the atium working by thoughts I seem to recall quite early on (I believe it was Final Empire) a scene where Vin gets shot with arrows from behind but dodges them because of Atium, if Atium worked by allowing her to read the actions of visible people this wouldn't be possible since she had no knowledge of them, additionally as they were bowmen they would have had to be continually adjusting their aim during that fight (and so their intention of where to shoot) if atium only predicted based on current thoughts there should have been a continuous stream of arrows rather than a single wave which preceded the actual volley. I'll try and find quotes on it. Hope this clears things up.

[Aeshdan]

The way I think this works is: without atium Brandon/Adonalsium can look at Vin and say "She has these desires, these instincts, these abilities, and this information, therefore she will do this." Because Brandon is omniscient about the Cosmere (for the same reason Jesus is omniscient about this univerese), his predictions are perfectly accurate. When Zane burned atium, he was tapping into this knowledge via Ruin. But, by paying very close attention, Vin saw Zane react to a move that she hadn't yet made, essentially getting a look at her own future. This changed the information she had access to, thus changing the course of action she chose to take.

BTW, I'd like to make it clear that I agree with Voidus and 213 that free will and predestination are not mutually exclusive.

Edited August 21, 2012 by ReaderAt2046

[happyman]

Hey everybody,

Sorry to start off a free-will/determinism debate. That ones a nasty mess of a debate in the real world. However, I would note that even with the existence of free will, there are rock-solid limits everyone agrees on, such as being unable to change the past or physical constraints on strength, and other similar things. Similarly, we have mental constraints such as reaction time, etc. Our free will, if it exists, is in the in-between states, in a sum of decisions made over time, not immediate reactions.

My guess is that if the Cosmere were truly deterministic, Atium and the Shards would be able to see much further into the future than they do. The next few seconds probably are pretty close to deterministic, free will or no, but once you get past that point, it begins to get diluted with changes people make. My position is that in the Cosmere, how far you can see into the future depends on how much power you have and how capable you are of understanding the possible futures. Normal humans with just a little shard power (Atium) cannot see very far, with even the slightest of changes making the shadows disappear. Full Shards or even people destined to be slivers, can see and understand much further.

Just my $0.02.

[Voidus]

My view on long term precognition in the cosmere is that it's difficult because it raises the same problem Zane had from Vin, by looking at the future (especially the distant future) you are going to act differently even if in some minor way than if you had not seen it, this will in turn influence others who will again act in a slightly different way to if you hadn't viewed the future (even if unconsciously), you will essentially be giving everyone a split atium shadow, events might reach a similar conclusion to what you saw but not exactly the same.

[name_here]

I personally think that it's not that here's no free will as such, it's just that people will react to a specific situation in a specific way. If there were no free will, Atium shadows wouldn't happen.

The big issue with long-term precognition in the Comere appears to simply be a matter of raw power, and the only people who can use it are Shards, who interact with other Shards and so get into tangled webs of Atium shadows.

[Aeshdan]

I personally think that it's not that here's no free will as such, it's just that people will react to a specific situation in a specific way.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say! Have an upvote and ten, no, ELEVEN AWESOME POINTS!

[Voidus]

The big issue with long-term precognition in the Comere appears to simply be a matter of raw power, and the only people who can use it are Shards, who interact with other Shards and so get into tangled webs of Atium shadows.

And this is what I was trying to say! have another upvote.

[Eric]

I personally think that it's not that here's no free will as such, it's just that people will react to a specific situation in a specific way.

Honest question: how is this different from a computer responding to specific stimuli in specific ways?

[Aminar]

Honest question: how is this different from a computer responding to specific stimuli in specific ways?

It isn't. In all honesty the difference is we can think well enough to recode ourselves-changing how we react to stimuli based on past results.(Or at least this is what psychologists would say.) I'm of the opinion there is a soul involved somewhere too. And our filing system sucks. When was the last time your hard drive forgot something without it dying?

[Eric]

So if it's functionally identical to programmed response, where does free will come in? (In response to the side question, the last time I forgot to save before closing a program. Our filing system *really* sucks.)

Edited August 23, 2012 by Eric

[Cracknut]

So if it's functionally identical to programmed response, where does free will come in? (In response to the side question, the last time I forgot to save before closing a program. Our filing system *really* sucks.)

Free will is also part of program.

Edited August 23, 2012 by 213

[Aminar]

In many ways free will is believed to have been disproved. What it really comes down too as that we all have choices we really want. I want to go buy a new video game. I could drive and get one but I won't. Because I have enough self control to choose not to. In a way Free Will is self control. If you look at the people you spend time with who lack self control it seems they are slaves to their vices doesn't it. Same idea. It also deals more with long term things. The morals you choose. The people you spend time with. Etc.

[Eric]

Free will is also part of program.

So you're programmed to choose and your choice is pre-programmed. The programming itself is what contradicts free will.

In many ways free will is believed to have been disproved. What it really comes down too as that we all have choices we really want. I want to go buy a new video game. I could drive and get one but I won't. Because I have enough self control to choose not to. In a way Free Will is self control. If you look at the people you spend time with who lack self control it seems they are slaves to their vices doesn't it. Same idea. It also deals more with long term things. The morals you choose. The people you spend time with. Etc.

And yet, assuming that your response is always the same in a particular situation at a particular point in your life, you will always make those exact choices in those exact circumstances, including indulging or ignoring a vice. You haven't done anything that another person with identical biology and experiences would not have done (ignoring for the moment that they would functionally be you, the same way two identically made computers with identical data are functionally the same). You are infinitely predictable; any change in your environment results in an infinitely predictable change in yourself.

Obviously there are general laws that break down on particular or exceedingly precise cases (scientific ones, I mean, like the ideal gas law). The concept of free will requires this sort of exception from programmed response. Is this where the soul comes in?

[Cracknut]

So you're programmed to choose and your choice is pre-programmed. The programming itself is what contradicts free will.

Nope, program just reads humans and exactly knows what will happen to them/what they will do. Not that IT forces them to do something, but whatever human does program knows beforehand. Future is whatever becomes present and then past. Everything else is for parallel universes. Therefore you can't change future without knowing exactly what it is. Why? Because otherwise whatever you do is whatever your future was originally. Its a bit hard to understand but with enough information from sci-fi movies and out-of-box thinking it makes sense.

[Voidus]

And yet, assuming that your response is always the same in a particular situation at a particular point in your life, you will always make those exact choices in those exact circumstances, including indulging or ignoring a vice. You haven't done anything that another person with identical biology and experiences would not have done (ignoring for the moment that they would functionally be you, the same way two identically made computers with identical data are functionally the same). You are infinitely predictable; any change in your environment results in an infinitely predictable change in yourself.

I think it comes down to how you define free will, in this I would say that yes someone with identical genetics and experience to you (say a clone of you set up in a virtual 'world' exactly similar to your life but with a seperate consciousness would make that same decision but you weere still 'free' to choose the others, it's almost like card tricks where the magician forces a card, you still acted with free will but there was really only one card you could have picked, thats a really bad metaphor now that it's out of my head... still good discussion Eric, very thought provoking! and oh look a giant bad-metaphor distracting from cookie!

[Eric]

Nope, program just reads humans and exactly knows what will happen to them/what they will do. Not that IT forces them to do something, but whatever human does program knows beforehand. Future is whatever becomes present and then past. Everything else is for parallel universes. Therefore you can't change future without knowing exactly what it is. Why? Because otherwise whatever you do is whatever your future was originally. Its a bit hard to understand but with enough information from sci-fi movies and out-of-box thinking it makes sense.

It's actually a bit aside from what I'm saying. The program is experience and biology, the forces defining the human action. Program is human, to borrow your voice. It's not about the future (despite the thread), it's about the instant of choice. If you will do only one thing based entirely on the way the past has shaped you, how can you be said to have chosen it?

Although, more on the thread's original topic, Atium could work by simply accounting for the variables at hand that the user isn't cognitively aware of, leaving only their action aside as 'undefined' (by the use of atium, not undefined as in unpredictable). Thus, when two users meet, they start compounding variables, rendering the limited amount of capacity useless. Until you use Duralumin and we miss you Elend! Electrum showing responses to potential stimuli also gives one limited insight into those variables, causing atium to having to account for multiple shifting variables. Feruchemical zinc might give you the edge in cognitively accounting for those variables, while Vin's trick was the inverse: letting Zane account for all the variables and introducing a new one.

@Voidus: It does imply a method of testing free will, though human cloning is currently illegal. We could do it on AIs, supposing a sufficiently advanced learning AI as to be self-aware.

[Cracknut]

It's actually a bit aside from what I'm saying. The program is experience and biology, the forces defining the human action. Program is human, to borrow your voice. It's not about the future (despite the thread), it's about the instant of choice. If you will do only one thing based entirely on the way the past has shaped you, how can you be said to have chosen it?

Although, more on the thread's original topic, Atium could work by simply accounting for the variables at hand that the user isn't cognitively aware of, leaving only their action aside as 'undefined' (by the use of atium, not undefined as in unpredictable). Thus, when two users meet, they start compounding variables, rendering the limited amount of capacity useless. Until you use Duralumin and we miss you Elend! Electrum showing responses to potential stimuli also gives one limited insight into those variables, causing atium to having to account for multiple shifting variables. Feruchemical zinc might give you the edge in cognitively accounting for those variables, while Vin's trick was the inverse: letting Zane account for all the variables and introducing a new one.

@Voidus: It does imply a method of testing free will, though human cloning is currently illegal. We could do it on AIs, supposing a sufficiently advanced learning AI as to be self-aware.

Yes but that also leads to what I'm saying. You can't change future without seeing it/knowing it. Atium has same effect free will or not. Vin's shadow split into two because she saw future through Zane's actions, not because she had free will EVEN if she had free will too.