Gender in Mistborn

[gjustice99 she/her]

So, originally, Brandon had planned for Vin to be a guy. I've been wondering how that would affect the gender of some other characters, or even if it would affect the gender of other characters. 

[Two McMillion he/him]

Well, it would have changed the love story, I'm sure. Brandon has so far avoided writing gay characters, so I doubt male!Vin and Elend would have ended up together. Most likely one of the other crew members would have been female instead.

[Fatebreaker he/him]

Long Answer:

Well, the Final Empire is a male dominant society, which would've probably made sneaking Vin into the court alot harder as the expectations for men in that society were vastly different from what was expected of women. It would be alot easier for a girl of lower standing to infiltrate higher ranks then a man of lower standing. Male-Vin would have been expected to pursue others, instead of letting them pursue her. Her, or rather his shyness would've probably been more of an issue and possibly made him appear weak rather than simply shy. All in all, I think they would've had to severely change their strategy. Plus, knowing Sanderson, Elend would probably have been female, which would've caused a bunch of other problems. Straff would've probably been able to marry him, urg, her off, and there would be no way the city would've accepted a female ruler. So Elend would've had to marry Vin  So he could rule and have Vin be a figurehead while Elend ran the country. There'd tons of other changes and alterations with dynamics between characters and shtuph.

 

Short Answer:

I'm fairly sure that would've made Elend a girl.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Fatebreaker

[Oudeis he/him]

Mr. Sanderson has written at least one homosexual character, on Scadrial nonetheless. Ranette. Granted, we only know about her sexuality from WoB. While it's true I wouldn't hate seeing characters express a broader spectrum of human sexuality, the truth is it seems to be an area that makes Mr. Sanderson less than comfortable. Since I can hardly see the case being made that non-heteronormative characters have been put on a back seat in modern fantasy literature (where the default setting seems to be omnisexual where it isn't om-nom-nomnisexual) I think he can prolly get away with low-keying sex as he's been doing, without doing any lasting harm to society.

[gjustice99 she/her]

If Elend had been a girl then there wouldn't be the scenes of Vin fighting off assassins in WOA because no one would be sending people to kill Elend (unless he was fighting off assassins trying to kill him). Elend being female and highly ranked while Vin would have been a low ranked male during the infiltration then their in-court relationship would have been a great deal more scandalous (though if they were both guys then it would be more scandalous than this).

[king of nowhere]

Mr. Sanderson has written at least one homosexual character, on Scadrial nonetheless. Ranette. Granted, we only know about her sexuality from WoB. While it's true I wouldn't hate seeing characters express a broader spectrum of human sexuality, the truth is it seems to be an area that makes Mr. Sanderson less than comfortable. Since I can hardly see the case being made that non-heteronormative characters have been put on a back seat in modern fantasy literature (where the default setting seems to be omnisexual where it isn't om-nom-nomnisexual) I think he can prolly get away with low-keying sex as he's been doing, without doing any lasting harm to society.

HE also said one of the bridgemen is gay because he's based on a gay friend of his.

And eshonai is asexual, even when in mateform.

So I don't think Brandon has real troubles writing gay characters, and if he can write so well an atheist and a guy with depression he probably could write gay people too.

I think the reasons we don't see more gays in the cosmere are two:

1) gays are a small minority. there aren't that many of them. so, it makes sense that we don't see many.  Among all the people I met, I know of two male gays and one male bisexual. that's pretty much in line, statistic-wise, with what we've seen in the cosmere so far.

2) we know from his own admission that brandon is uncomfortable with writing sexuality. So, there are probably some more gays in his books, it's just that we never learned of their orientation.

 

Another reason that would be very depending on the setting would be whether gays are discriminated. If that was the case, we would be unlikely to ever see one in those worlds, simply because they would hide it.

I expect the final empire, with its rigid image of what a succesful noble should be, and the alethi society, with its rigid gender roles, would be a pretty bbad place for a non-heterosexual to be. on the other hand, hallandren seemed pretty open-minded, and aol-era scadrial also seemed ok. don't know enough about sel or the rest of roshar to say.

[Iredomi]

I'd just like to say queer people are a lot bigger minority than you're making out. In fact I honestly believe that the lack of queer identifying people is due to the prevalence of heteronormativity. Brandon's books are reasonably diverse, and he's done a lot of good with female representation and stuff but when it comes to queer representation they do suffer. However he has said he is working on it and wants to do it right so that gives some hope. 

 

[gjustice99 she/her]

If Vin and Elend were both guys then there would be a coming out scene where Kelsier would confront Vin about his sexuality. I really wonder how that would go down.

[Two McMillion he/him]

If Vin and Elend were both guys then there would be a coming out scene where Kelsier would confront Vin about his sexuality. I really wonder how that would go down.

Probably so. If that was true I'd imagine Mistborn would be primarily known for having a gay romance element, to the exclusion of all the other things it does. I imagine fandom would view it very differently, for better or worse.

 

BTW, answering questions like this is what fanfic is for.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Two McMillion

[gjustice99 she/her]

Probably so. If that was true I'd imagine Mistborn would be primarily known for having a gay romance element, to the exclusion of all the other things it does. I imagine fandom would view it very differently, for better or worse.

 

BTW, answering questions like this is what fanfic is for.

I've had the fanfic experience ruined too many times to go back, I think. 

[Quiver he/him]

Wait- question. Is "Eshonai is asexual" something confirmed by Brandon, or speculation?

Just curious since I really like Eshonai, but never heard that explanation before- sorry for the SA-derail.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Quiver

[Kobold King he/him]

Wait- question. Is "Eshonai is asexual" something confirmed by Brandon, or speculation?

Just curious since I really like Eshonai, but never heard that explanation before- sorry for the SA-derail.

 

Aren't all Parshendi "asexual" when they're not in mateform? The Parshendi are not humans. As a race they have a wildly different view of sexuality than we do. Through all but a thin sliver of their lives, they have absolutely no interest in copulation. While in mateform they think of nothing else.

 

We can call them asexual because that's the closest word we have to describe the Parshendi's take on sexuality. Calling an individual Parshendi asexual is like calling an individual lichen asexual. As a species, they are too different from us to easily separate them into categories.

[king of nowhere]

I'd just like to say queer people are a lot bigger minority than you're making out. In fact I honestly believe that the lack of queer identifying people is due to the prevalence of heteronormativity. Brandon's books are reasonably diverse, and he's done a lot of good with female representation and stuff but when it comes to queer representation they do suffer. However he has said he is working on it and wants to do it right so that gives some hope. 

 

I don't know, I've read statistics putting them at anywhere between 2 and 10%, which I would call fairly small. Although that would still be at least 140 million people in the world, so only small compared to the general population.

But then, similar people bond with similar people, so most queer people would know many other queer people. Certainly those two gays I knew had no shortage of boyfriends, even if they could pick their partners only among less than 5% of the population. I wasn't particularly close to either of them, or I probably would have been introduced to their friends and boyfriends too, and I also would know plenty of queers.

So, like many social groups, they tend to aggregate. part of it is necessity; it would be awfully difficult for them to find a love interest otherwise. Also, while most people nowadays have no prejudices, some still do, and coming out is always risky. But you can be sure another queer is not going to discriminate.

This brought to the situation where, regardles of statistics and numbers, most people know queers exist, but have hardly met one, while others are aquainted with dozens of them, and very few stand in between.

 

From the point of view of a book, it would mean that, if in the main cast no one is queer, then it is unlikely anyone will be - at least, anyone whose orientation will be seen on screen. If one main character is queer, or is close friend with a queer, it would be realistic for a consistent part of the main cast to also be queer, unless there was something preventing that character from forming a net of social relationships, like a secluded youth, or having been abduced and brought to another continent away from anyone he ever knew.

So, the gay bridgeman (was it drehy? I don't remember) was ripped away from his previous life the moment he was made a slave and is unlikely to know others - we  also don't know if queers are discriminated in alethi society, it may be that he needs to keep a low profile. But Ranette, I expect her to have some other queer friends (not many, because she doesn't seem the kind of person who has many friends in the first place) and we could see them if her part in the story is expanded.

Huh, now I'm seeing a scene were Ranette is telling Vayne "Sorry I have no interest  in you, but I can introduce you to some nice friends". Except all the friends are lesbians and vayne is surrounded by nice and beautiful women chatting amiably with him, but shooting down all his attempts for more...

 

#listenerasexuality: eshonai said her time in mateform was terrible, so it seems she is asexual even by their standards. Plus, they probably have some spark of attraction in them that tells them "I want to go in mateform with this other guy", and eshonai seems to be lacking that too. Anyway, I've seen her refferred  as "asexual" in other places, but I'm not sure if it is canon or if it was only referred to the fact that all listeners are asexual outside of mateform.

Edited December 28, 2014 by king of nowhere

[Witty Username he/him]

Stats on LGBT population percentage. Presented without further comment.

 

As to the original point of this thread, other than changing the gender of Elend, I don't feel like it would have changed the plot a great deal nor the genders of the other characters. I can't think of anything about any of the other characters is predicated on Vin's being female.

[gjustice99 she/her]

I don't know, I've read statistics putting them at anywhere between 2 and 10%, which I would call fairly small. Although that would still be at least 140 million people in the world, so only small compared to the general population.

But then, similar people bond with similar people, so most queer people would know many other queer people. Certainly those two gays I knew had no shortage of boyfriends, even if they could pick their partners only among less than 5% of the population. I wasn't particularly close to either of them, or I probably would have been introduced to their friends and boyfriends too, and I also would know plenty of queers.

So, like many social groups, they tend to aggregate. part of it is necessity; it would be awfully difficult for them to find a love interest otherwise. Also, while most people nowadays have no prejudices, some still do, and coming out is always risky. But you can be sure another queer is not going to discriminate.

This brought to the situation where, regardles of statistics and numbers, most people know queers exist, but have hardly met one, while others are aquainted with dozens of them, and very few stand in between.

 

From the point of view of a book, it would mean that, if in the main cast no one is queer, then it is unlikely anyone will be - at least, anyone whose orientation will be seen on screen. If one main character is queer, or is close friend with a queer, it would be realistic for a consistent part of the main cast to also be queer, unless there was something preventing that character from forming a net of social relationships, like a secluded youth, or having been abduced and brought to another continent away from anyone he ever knew.

So, the gay bridgeman (was it drehy? I don't remember) was ripped away from his previous life the moment he was made a slave and is unlikely to know others - we  also don't know if queers are discriminated in alethi society, it may be that he needs to keep a low profile. But Ranette, I expect her to have some other queer friends (not many, because she doesn't seem the kind of person who has many friends in the first place) and we could see them if her part in the story is expanded.

Huh, now I'm seeing a scene were Ranette is telling Vayne "Sorry I have no interest  in you, but I can introduce you to some nice friends". Except all the friends are lesbians and vayne is surrounded by nice and beautiful women chatting amiably with him, but shooting down all his attempts for more...

 

#listenerasexuality: eshonai said her time in mateform was terrible, so it seems she is asexual even by their standards. Plus, they probably have some spark of attraction in them that tells them "I want to go in mateform with this other guy", and eshonai seems to be lacking that too. Anyway, I've seen her refferred  as "asexual" in other places, but I'm not sure if it is canon or if it was only referred to the fact that all listeners are asexual outside of mateform.

Yes the gay bridgeman is Drehy. Its spelled Wayne, actually. Also, this makes me wonder if the seemingly antisocial Ranette has a girlfriend. And Vin being a guy could possibly change the plot (of Well of Ascension more than Mistborn) drastically. That would mean that Vin would have probably have been king (Emperor more likely) and the rule would not have been a parliamentary monarchy it would more likely have been an empire from the start as, in the beginning of Well of Ascension, Vin seemed to think that was a much better idea that letting the assembly have power. There would probably still be an assembly, but it would probably only be in place to placate the wishes of Elend's female counterpart.

Edited December 29, 2014 by gjustice99

[Dahak he/him]

Aren't all Parshendi "asexual" when they're not in mateform?

 

Parshmen manage to reproduce despite being in slaveform.

 

Eshonai does point out that the non-Odium backdoored forms only influence behaviour and thought patterns rather than being absolute.

 

[Moogle]

Parshmen manage to reproduce despite being in slaveform.

 

We don't know this one for sure (though I think, on balance, it's most likely true). It was actually a subject of some debate at one point - someone posited that listeners in slaveform are biologically immortal, and all the parshmen that exist now were alive thousands of years prior. The books never once mention Parshmen young, or how they're bred, only their death customs.

[king of nowhere]

 

We don't know this one for sure (though I think, on balance, it's most likely true). It was actually a subject of some debate at one point - someone posited that listeners in slaveform are biologically immortal, and all the parshmen that exist now were alive thousands of years prior. The books never once mention Parshmen young, or how they're bred, only their death customs.

i doubt they'd be biologically immortal, because accidents and sickness take their toll, especially in a preindustrial society. they'd never could afford to send a parshendi to the bridge crews if there was a limited nnumber of them.

on the other hand, the fact that they can reproduce don't prove anything, except that they're fertile (but must have a difficult time breeding, if they are rare and expensive). it is said that you cannot rape a  man, but there are ways around that. I'm not going to describe it because I''m not sure it's appropriate and anyway it's not a nice way, let me just say that men with erectile disfunctions have been uusing them to have children before there was artificial insemination.

and the parshendi probably had to be ordered to do that.

 

now, trying to bring back the thread on topic, one has to note that the majority of the cast in mistborn is male, and especialy  everyone else in the crew is.  I think vin being a girl balances that a bit more, and paves the way for gender equality in the modern scadrial.

also, I think vin in her initial appearence of a broken bird would work much less if she were a boy. as much as a small boy can be small, he can hardly be as small as her.  her status of being the only girl in the thieving crew also meant she had to be wary of rape. A man in her place wouldnot inspire as much simpaty.

[Curiosity he/him]

Remember, Vin was a 14-15 year-old boy in Final Empire Prime, one of the books that Brandon took elements from to make Mistborn: The Final Empire. I think he changed Vin's gender after he began writing what we now know as Mistborn. There are samples from Final Empire Prime on his website which show this.