A Question on Compounding

[Lanscaper]

Namely my question is can Allomantic power be stored? And also what might be achieved by this?

1. More potent metals - By storing an allomantic trait upon an existing allomantic trait, when the metal is burned it creates a more profound effect, similar to purity gradients. What would also be interesting is if we assume that Allomantic power is not individual specific, but rather channeled power. If this is so then perhaps a Misting other than the Compounder who made the more potent metal may be able to utilize the more potent allomantic charge placed upon the metal.

2. Removing the upper limit of Allomantic ability - By tapping massive reserves of stored allomantic potential the limitations that each individual would normally face when flaring can be surpassed, if only momentarily.

3. Ferrings able to use stored Allomantic charges made by Compounder - This works off of the assumption that Allomantic charges of power are not individual specific. In Feruchemy you are storing a part of yourself and therefore other people cannot use that power. In Allomancy you are tapping into a larger power source, and therefore it can be seen as raw power that is being channeled. Of course if the Ferring does not have the appropriate spiritweb to channel the power they use the charges with no effect.

Soo...I'm looking for input on these random thoughts, whether I'm making some unfounded assumptions, and the potential effects that this would have on the Mistborn Universe. The more potent metals might be interesting, and removing the upper limit on Allomantic ability is also cool, but Ferrings going around with Misting powers...Thoughts?

[Aeshdan he/him]

Namely my question is can Allomantic power be stored? And also what might be achieved by this?

1. More potent metals - By storing an allomantic trait upon an existing allomantic trait, when the metal is burned it creates a more profound effect, similar to purity gradients. What would also be interesting is if we assume that Allomantic power is not individual specific, but rather channeled power. If this is so then perhaps a Misting other than the Compounder who made the more potent metal may be able to utilize the more potent allomantic charge placed upon the metal.

2. Removing the upper limit of Allomantic ability - By tapping massive reserves of stored allomantic potential the limitations that each individual would normally face when flaring can be surpassed, if only momentarily.

3. Ferrings able to use stored Allomantic charges made by Compounder - This works off of the assumption that Allomantic charges of power are not individual specific. In Feruchemy you are storing a part of yourself and therefore other people cannot use that power. In Allomancy you are tapping into a larger power source, and therefore it can be seen as raw power that is being channeled. Of course if the Ferring does not have the appropriate spiritweb to channel the power they use the charges with no effect.

Soo...I'm looking for input on these random thoughts, whether I'm making some unfounded assumptions, and the potential effects that this would have on the Mistborn Universe. The more potent metals might be interesting, and removing the upper limit on Allomantic ability is also cool, but Ferrings going around with Misting powers...Thoughts?

We know there's a way to use Feruchemy to enhance Allomancy, but we don't know exactly what yet. (I think it has to do with storing Investiture.)

[Commander Spoonface he/him]

We know there's a way to use Feruchemy to enhance Allomancy, but we don't know exactly what yet. (I think it has to do with storing Investiture.)

I agree. Perhaps storing Investiture is using up power from whatever magic system and storing only the raw power that fueled the action, which can then be used in any Investiture later.

[Vortaan he/him]

I'd be curious as to what this would actually do. Let's assume there is reverse Compounding, using Feruchemy to give you more potent Allomantic metals. Would this give you duralanium-level powers without the flaring and loss of your metals? Or would it just give you a flared version? What, really, is the upper limit on something like a Steelpush? How about a Riot? Or a speed bubble?

Random other thought: what does duralanium-enhanced gold do?

[Aeshdan he/him]

I'd be curious as to what this would actually do. Let's assume there is reverse Compounding, using Feruchemy to give you more potent Allomantic metals. Would this give you duralanium-level powers without the flaring and loss of your metals? Or would it just give you a flared version? What, really, is the upper limit on something like a Steelpush? How about a Riot? Or a speed bubble?

Random other thought: what does duralanium-enhanced gold do?

Duralumin-enhanced gold probably shows you every alternate path you could have taken, kind of like when Rand uses the Portal Stone the second time in TGH.

[Chaos he/him]

I strongly believe this is possible. After all, burning a metal creates an Investiture. If you were an Allomancer and a nicrosil Ferring, I see no reason why you couldn't store such an Investiture.

I also believe this is how the Lord Ruler gets his enhanced brass Allomancy. He stores that Allomantic Soothing Investiture into a nicrosilmind, and then he compounds the nicrosil. So then he gets a massive burst of the Investiture he already stored, and in effect gets a huge burst of power. Since Brandon said that the Lord Ruler's Soothing was something Elend could only do while using duralumin, I'd assume that in practice doing nicrosil Compounding on an Allomantic Investiture would be like duralumin without the costs of it.

Seems like the most likely solution to me.

[Lanscaper]

I strongly believe this is possible. After all, burning a metal creates an Investiture. If you were an Allomancer and a nicrosil Ferring, I see no reason why you couldn't store such an Investiture.

I also believe this is how the Lord Ruler gets his enhanced brass Allomancy. He stores that Allomantic Soothing Investiture into a nicrosilmind, and then he compounds the nicrosil. So then he gets a massive burst of the Investiture he already stored, and in effect gets a huge burst of power. Since Brandon said that the Lord Ruler's Soothing was something Elend could only do while using duralumin, I'd assume that in practice doing nicrosil Compounding on an Allomantic Investiture would be like duralumin without the costs of it.

Seems like the most likely solution to me.

Then the problem is that nicrosil was not something that the Ministry knew about to my knowledge...I'm fine with the idea of a rare nicrosil metalmind. But the thing that comes to mind for me is that TLR would need nicrosil to burn to continue the compounding process. Whereas if my theory of storing Allomantic power in a metalmind works then TLR is just using brass or zinc for his powerful Allomancy, and is not limited by a supply of nicrosil.

Personally I think that it's got something to do with the fact that people just don't know how to store Allomantic potential into a metalmind. In Feruchemy they are storing a bit of themselves, it's something that they are familiar with and have everyday exposure to. Raw Allomantic power is alien in comparison, they know how to channel it through their bodies, but diverting that power to a static piece of metal would be a different mental/spiritual process. If the compounder is channeling Allomantic power through their bodies then there is a loss of power in the transfer as most of the power is dispersed through the body (at least this is my interpretation for the physical metals), and therefore would not be able to direct/divert the power to the metalminds. What I think needs to happen is a direct transfer of power somehow, from that part of Preservation or Harmony, directly into the metalmind. What mental and spiritual gymnastics are involved in achieving this...I've got no clue.

Also to avoid double-posting this is my clarifying thought:

My interpretation is this: DISCLAIMER This is my own thoughts on the mechanics of the Metallic Arts none of this is verified.

A person's spiritweb is altered or shaped to be able to channel the power of Allomancy, or is born with the proper spiritweb that creates Feruchemy. These spiritwebs allow Mistings, Mistborn, Ferrings, and Feruchemists to channel the appropriate powers associated in the Metallic Arts of Scadrial. In terms of our current knowledge of Compounding, we know that the power of Preservation, which is the fuel source for Allomancy is tricked into providing whatever storage was in the metal, and because of the personalized nature of Feruchemical storages only that person, or a person with that spiritweb identifier is able to tap into that power.

My first idea, that of more potent metals works like this in my head. Take Pewter for example. You burn pewter because you have the correct spiritweb. We know that the purity of the metals has an impact on the transfer of power, and that in alloys like Pewter exact percentages are necessary. Because I'm used to data management and other database systems I think of it like this. When Pewter is burned I think of it like a call to the system (the system being the power of the Shard - Preservation/Harmony), or another way to put it is like shooting off a signal flare. That call for attention sends power from Preservation/Harmony to the Allomancer at which point the spiritweb of the caller takes that power and utilizes it. If someone figures out how to do said mental/spiritual gymnastics that I described earlier, where their spiritweb is only used to call the power from Preservation/Harmony but rather than going through the body it hits the metalmind instead we create Pewter.

Pewter in my mind (or a more potent metal) is the same physically, there is no way to differentiate metalminds from normal metals on a physical level that we know of. Rather the strength of the spiritual call is different. In my mind I think of pewter to have some sort of unique shape, a unique symbol that Preservation recognizes to differentiate it from the other metals. However when that Allomantic power is sent to the metalmind directly the power instead reinforces something that it is familiar with, the spiritual symbol. Thus the reason why I'm calling Pewter in bold, it is the same symbol, but it demands more attention from the other masses. Take my analogy of the signal flare further, say that Pewter (unaltered) is burned and the signal flare is sent up and the power is sent. However if Pewter is burnt an even bigger flare is sent up, it screams for more attention and thus more power is sent to that location.

For another random thought... perhaps instead of the Allomantic power going into the metal and reinforcing the symbol, I think that perhaps the power is treated similarly to a Feruchemical charge. My understanding of Feruchemy is that a potential of yourself is stored into the metal. But rather than thinking of the metal as a cup that can hold a fixed volume of power, I think of the metal as an anchor that holds down that Feruchemical charge or potential of what could be from flying into nowhere and being lost. Therefore the idea of more potent metals could work like this. Not only is the call or the signal flare sent up to Preservation/Harmony to send power, but existing power is freed as the metal is burned, and that is channeled by the Misting.

Lanscaper ends his theorizing for today

Edited July 29, 2012 by Lanscaper

[Squigy]

well Allomancy is not Preservation's art, Feruchemy is. Allomancy is both of Ruin and Preservation: the metal is destroyed, but power is gained (Ruin destroys, but Preservation keeps the laws of conservation in tact) the power that is released is PART OF the Allomancer, they can use it how they want, this includes (in the case of compounders) changing it into an aspect of human life by using an appropriate metalmind as a "chloroplast" where Preservation changes Allomantic energy into the appropriate trait and uses it. The reason for the 10x strength effect (in my unverified opinion) is that the power released from burning metals is a spiritual energy, to effect the physical world a large amount (likely 10x what would be needed in physical energy) must be applied to accomplish a small amount of work, in other words, the spirit energy field and the physical energy field are not very interactive, however when a metalmind is used to focus the energy it comes out at a 1:1 ratio of physical energy/trait.

however when physical energy is stored in a metalmind and then burned the physical energy is released, but not harnessed, and only the spiritual energy is used to do the work, like when Vin burned Sazed's earring. I don't think it would make a difference who put the physical energy into the metalmind, because it would still be physical energy and Allomancy isn't designed to harness extra physical energy, it would just be released as extra heat in the Allomancer's stomach.

Edited August 7, 2012 by HighprinceTruserOfHouseAan

[Aeshdan he/him]

well Allomancy is not Preservation's art, Feruchemy is. Allomancy is both of Ruin and Preservation: the metal is destroyed, but power is gained (Ruin destroys, but Preservation keeps the laws of conservation in tact)

Wrong. Allomancy is of Preservation because you yourself are Preserved, not having to give up anything to get the power. Feruchemy is of both Ruin (Ruining yourself by giving up an attribute) and Preservation (having the attribute Preserved in a form that you can get at later). This is explictly confirmed in the Mistborn epigraphs.

[hoidhunter he/him]

Yeah...sorry squigy but you have it backwards...feruchemy is the end neutral art...allomancy is the end positive art...and hemalurgy is the end negative art. However...unlike some others...I'm upvoting you for being brave...instead of downvoting you for posting a long explanation about something that is fairly elementary to most members of this forum.

Check out the coppermind to check some things before you post.

[18th Shard he/him]

please don't necro.

[Shadeshadow227]

On 7/24/2012 at 3:08 PM, Vortaan said:

I'd be curious as to what this would actually do. Let's assume there is reverse Compounding, using Feruchemy to give you more potent Allomantic metals. Would this give you duralanium-level powers without the flaring and loss of your metals? Or would it just give you a flared version? What, really, is the upper limit on something like a Steelpush? How about a Riot? Or a speed bubble?

Random other thought: what does duralanium-enhanced gold do?

I'd say...okay, say you're a steel-nicrosil twinborn. You burn steel, and store the Investiture. You wouldn't be able to steelpush while storing, but, when tapping, you could tap that Investiture while burning steel to steelpush twice as hard. Or you could burn twice as much steel and store it to steelpush three times as hard. Like a kind of "stacked effects" thing like in RPGs. And burning momentarily, for a split second while tapping, to rewrite the "blank" Investiture as "allomantic steel" Investiture, would allow you to burn steel without actually using up your metals. So you could either burn while tapping for a power boost, or burn for a second then switch to tapping. After exausting your Nicromind you could start burning for real, essentially burning steel twice as long without ingesting twice as much. And you could Steelpush a building by burning, then exausting your Nicromind in a massive burst.