Fabrials: Hemalurgy Lite

[Oudeis he/him]

I'm proposing an alternative to the Dark Alley.

 

We've seen that there are fabrials which can decrease the emotions of people.

 

We've seen that there are fabrials which can detect, according to the ars arcana, "objects, feelings, sensations, or phenomenon". I humbly suggest this is a mimicry of sensory arcana such as Lifesense or allomantic bronze.

 

And, of course, we've seen fabrials for the Surges of Transformation, Transportation, and Progression.

 

I wonder if one day we might learn that fabrial science was designed to mimic other powers, without having to steal them.

 

So, basically, if you wanted multiple powers, instead of having to kill someone and staple their soul onto your own in order to get them, you can simply build the appropriate fabrial. This would presumably have the downside of efficacy; it's far easier to simply have allomantic bronze and think about it than to play around with a fabrial. However, it has the upside that it doesn't require you to kill anyone, and we don't have it confirmed that it opens a rift in your soul which would allow in something referred to as a Dark God.

 

Just a thought. I'd like to ask if Lift could possibly wear a fabrial which would allow her to store metabolic energy in it.

[Voidus]

If you'll look at the edit history for the fabrial page on the coppermind you'll find that the Dark Alley has long been interested in them
We will not be displaced!

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

For a Fabrial to work it needs a Spren or something similar. Would it be possible to use Aons and Skaze ( if that's what they are called ) to replicate Aondor's powers?

[Voidus]

Seons can actualize the aons in them anyway so I'm not sure that making a fabrial would change anything.

[Oudeis he/him]

Seons can actualize the aons in them anyway so I'm not sure that making a fabrial would change anything.

 

Can they? I know that's a power they had in a different draft, I don't know that it's still canon in text.

[Shardcellist]

I'm proposing an alternative to the Dark Alley.

Don't you like our cookies?

Out of curiosity, what do you think fabrials meant to replicate Hemalurgy would do?

[Oudeis he/him]

If I'm right, all fabrials replicate hemalurgy, in a sense.

 

However, to answer the question you're really asking, exactly what hemalurgy does. It would be a gemstone stuck onto a metal spike which you could stab into a person and rip off a chunk of their spiritweb, then staple it onto someone else. Presumably.

[Pathfinder]

True you wouldn't be tearing someone's soul apart, but it would in my opinion, still be a dark alley process since you have to capture a spren for it. Given that we met spren with sentience such as syl, pattern, wyndle and ivory, it would feel to me too much like chaining a horse to a conveyor belt attached to a generator, and making it run non stop to power your tv. 

[Oudeis he/him]

Eh, I concede we don't have a full answer yet, but I don't believe spren are like animals. Or rather, I think that saying "spren" only narrows it down to the degree of saying "physical matter". Saying you're controlling physical matter, when you mean you're exhaling atmosphere in a directed attempt to extinguish your birthday candles, is very different from controlling physical matter when you mean you're enslaving a race of people in order to build the pyramids.

 

I would be very surprised if all spren were "people", the way not all objects are people. I suspect, for example, that you make a heat augmenting fabrial by trapping a flamespren. I do not believe flamespren are sentient, or even capable of sapience to the level of a horse. It's like worrying if you'll hurt gravity's feelings by not falling off a couch. A flamspren simply is; it does not want or desire, it needs no food or rest, it's just "what people think fire is". Trap it in a gem in a specific way, and it will stick around instead of fading back to enter the cognitive realm, where it will stop being an individual flamespren and will rejoin the singular Ideal of Fire. Feed that gem stormlight, and instead of simply being attracted to fire, it will emulate fire and produce heat. I see it less like "force a horse to walk on a treadmill" (which honestly if you're nice to the horse isn't the worst life a horse can have) and more like "have a fire burning in your hearth." Does the fire mind being stuck in a fireplace? Would it rather travel to Aruba? Would it prefer to burn your house down? Does it want to visit the exotic frozen north?

 

Though I grant you, I don't have WoB, it's just the sense I get from the text. If you're right... then Roshar must be Damnation for spren. Aren't they being enslaved just as much when they hang out around a fire? They don't choose to show up when you light a torch, they have to. Do Rainspren loathe the Weeping, when they get four weeks of work with no rest? Should all people of Roshar refrain from ever experiencing a sense of accomplishment, so as not to enslave gloryspren against their will?

 

Jasnah does state that there are spren as dumb as fish, at least. I would have no objecting to trapping a fish-minded spren like a goldfish in a fishbowl and feeding it stormlight in exchange for heat. I would also not be surprised if we learn there are spren even dumber than fish, spren with minds like rocks.

[Pathfinder]

True, but from what I have seen, they are attracted to the phenomena. So putting a bowl of water down for a dog to drink is not trapping it. It is voluntarily attracted to the bowl of water to drink. It can just as easily go elsewhere and drink. Windspren do not have sentience like Syl, yet they do have enough cognitive functions to play pranks on the unwary. Another analogy in my opinion would be zoo animals. They are taken care of, and given a similar environment, but they are still caged animals. Spren do not seem to me as the phenomena themselves, so I do not see them as a natural source to be consumed, rather as entities attracted to certain phenomena.  I see it as taking a living being, and locking them away from what would normally be their natural progression, and using them to power items. Now it could very well be no where near be as torturous as I paint it. In fact, the spren could be overjoyed from serving their functions, such as flame spren giving heat, and so on. Just how the whole thing kinda sounds to my ears. Your interpretation is quite valid. 

[Oudeis he/him]

Regardless, it's prolly still better than hemalurgy. I'd be interested to see what we eventually learn. I might put it on my person list of questions.

[Titan Arum]

Pathfinder, if I recall correctly, spren are just the cognitive aspect of objects int he Physical Realm. Yes, some spren are sentient, but only after the start forming the Nahel bond. Most other spren, I would argue, don't really understand what is going on around them, other than being interested in whatever it is that makes them a certain type of spren. (Syl only became truly sentient after she began bonding with Kaladin, before that she was basically a windspren.) If we want to discuss the ethics of trapping spren then I'd say it's not terribly bad relative to a lot of other things. Are Rosharians forcing them to do anything in fabrials that they aren't already doing or attracted to?

 

What you are saying about spren, could easily apply to other things, like the domestication of chulls. Humans on Roshar have domesticated them and force them to pull wagons. I'd argue that culls, as animals, have more sentient capabilities than spren, which are just a representation of the cognitive. Should we not then fight for chull-rights and not "enslave" them? As a result, if you argue that capturing spren for fabrials is dark, then you could argue domesticating axehounds, chulls, and other creatures is dark as well since we're taking them away from their wild nature. Thus, to bring this to a real world argument, all domestication of animals as well as trapping animals in zoos would be considered dark and unethical. Some people argue that this is (think PETA), but others do not. However, most of us (if not all) would probably argue that enslaving people and killing people to take something from them would be wrong. 

 

Possibly a controversial opinion:

 

I'm more inclined to believe that the ethics of hemalurgy are far darker than the ethics of trapping spren. How does hemalurgy work? Well, by stabbing individuals and ripping Spiritweb attributes from them. Isn't it worse to steal something from a human, via a very harmful method, than it is to trap a spren and use it for it's power? Also, the art of hemalurgy has devastating side effects for a lot of people who have parts of their Spiritweb stolen: death. Thus, If most spren aren't really sentient but all humans are, I'd argue hemalurgy is worse (ethically and physically) than creating fabrials out of spren.

[Pathfinder]

Pathfinder, if I recall correctly, spren are just the cognitive aspect of objects int he Physical Realm. Yes, some spren are sentient, but only after the start forming the Nahel bond. Most other spren, I would argue, don't really understand what is going on around them, other than being interested in whatever it is that makes them a certain type of spren. (Syl only became truly sentient after she began bonding with Kaladin, before that she was basically a windspren.) If we want to discuss the ethics of trapping spren then I'd say it's not terribly bad relative to a lot of other things. Are Rosharians forcing them to do anything in fabrials that they aren't already doing or attracted to?

 

What you are saying about spren, could easily apply to other things, like the domestication of chulls. Humans on Roshar have domesticated them and force them to pull wagons. I'd argue that culls, as animals, have more sentient capabilities than spren, which are just a representation of the cognitive. Should we not then fight for chull-rights and not "enslave" them? As a result, if you argue that capturing spren for fabrials is dark, then you could argue domesticating axehounds, chulls, and other creatures is dark as well since we're taking them away from their wild nature. Thus, to bring this to a real world argument, all domestication of animals as well as trapping animals in zoos would be considered dark and unethical. Some people argue that this is (think PETA), but others do not. However, most of us (if not all) would probably argue that enslaving people and killing people to take something from them would be wrong. 

 

Possibly a controversial opinion:

 

I'm more inclined to believe that the ethics of hemalurgy are far darker than the ethics of trapping spren. How does hemalurgy work? Well, by stabbing individuals and ripping Spiritweb attributes from them. Isn't it worse to steal something from a human, via a very harmful method, than it is to trap a spren and use it for it's power? Also, the art of hemalurgy has devastating side effects for a lot of people who have parts of their Spiritweb stolen: death. Thus, If most spren aren't really sentient but all humans are, I'd argue hemalurgy is worse (ethically and physically) than creating fabrials out of spren.

Wasn't really trying to argue anything other than just saying that fabrials could be seen in a dark light like hemalurgy. Was not trying to say one was worse than the other, or should be abhorred. The fact of the matter is we don't know what the spren are experiencing while in a fabrial. Have we seen a radiant use a fabrial to see if it screams or not? I know Nale has, but he is a herald which does not need a bond. Jasnah walked around with one and so did Shallan, but it was broken, so could that be why? Just because spren do not have a level of sentience like Syl, does not mean they do not have a level of sentience at all. Windspren are not bonded, yet they can play pranks. That denotes a level of sentience to me. As you said people could argue the way the meat industry handles its treatment of cows as abhorrent. If you think about it, theoretically fabrial are the same. They are both taking beings, locking them away, and using them to produce a product, cows for meat, spren for an ability. Bonds are voluntary, fabrials are not. Please do not misunderstand, I did not write all this to say you are wrong and I am right. Just at one point it was stated that since fabrials do not require ripping apart someone's spirit web, then its a nicer form of hemalurgy. Curious I just stated based on what little we know, there could be another dark way of viewing the process. I would find it very funny however if in the third book, we learn that spren are in pain the entire time, and Shallan starts a protesting group to end fabrial use. Something tells me things will get real interesting real fast if Nale pops up to disagree with her lol

 

edit: btw, the question about have we seen radiants using fabrials other than the examples I gave was genuine. I seriously do not remember, and am curious if we have. 

Edited December 18, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Oudeis he/him]

Pathfinder:

 

First, in the Starfalls vision, the Radiant uses the Regrowth fabrial and does not seem to think it's screaming. And Shallan and Renarin seem fine with the Oathgate.

 

Second... I'm not sure how you want us to respond to you. You enter debates, poke sticks in the wheels of arguments, and when people try to defend themselves, you act like you can't understand why they're trying to debate you when you clearly don't want to debate. You admit that what you say is moonshine, but you sound serious when you say it and you use a lot of words.

 

I can appreciate that you have every right to say your piece, but can you understand that what you end up doing is derailing actual discussion? You can continue to speculate as much as you want, and not I or anyone else has the right to ask you to stop. I just hope you're aware that when you do it, you're making it harder for those of us who want to have a scholarly debate to do so. Perhaps we could have the best of both worlds if, instead of jumping in to a topic you admit you don't actually want to debate, you can start your own thread somewhere else and muse to your heart's content; that way, everyone wins.

[Pathfinder]

I bolded from the get go it is my opinion. That from my perspective it seemed dark and explained why. I didn't say anyone had to believe what I did. Just tossed in my two cents, which I am perfectly entitled to do. 

Edited December 18, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Oudeis he/him]

And I'm not trying to say you didn't say it was your opinion, or that you don't have the right to say it. In fact, I made it abundantly clear that you have the right to say what you want. But people can and will respond to what you say, whether it's your opinion or not, the same way you responded to something that was my opinion, or Titan's. If you're under the impression that people aren't allowed to respond at all to your opinion... that's fine, and I will try to remember going forward not to respond to you. It seems a little one-sided that you think you're allowed to tell me you think I'm mistaken, but then you don't want anyone to respond to you.

 

And even then, it's fine. If you want to say your piece and not have anyone respond to you, you're allowed to want to do that. I've got the legal right to blare loud yodeling from my speakers until midnight every night if I so desire. I realize this would inconvenience those around me, so I don't. All I'm asking is that you realize that your desire to state your own opinion without anyone being allowed to respond to you has shown a tendency to derail threads. Titan and I, and maybe some other people, wanted to actually discuss the meat of the issue at hand, which is the ethical considerations of fabrial science. Instead, we're now discussing how people are or aren't allowed to respond to you. And this isn't the first time a thread you've joined has turned into this discussion.

 

Again, I'm not in any way saying what you do or do not have the right to do. I'm only saying, hopefully your own goals aren't to derail conversations, but to have a forum for your musings. I'm hoping that we can all work together and find a way for everyone to get what they want. We'll get to keep a scholarly debate going on-topic in our threads, and you get to muse aloud. I've suggested one method by which we can go about it; I'm sorry that it sounded like I was trying to tell you what you can or cannot do. If you have a different suggestion that would achieve the same result, I am all ears.

[Pathfinder]

I PMed you about this issue as per the forum guidelines but you never replied. If you would like to continue this discussion feel free to reply to me there as per the forum guidelines. Thank you. 

[Cold Fusion he/him]

(Chanting)

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!

[dvoraen]

(Chanting)

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!

If you want to post things like this, I'm going to ask a mod to rename you Nergaoul.

 

Back on topic: I don't really see Fabrials as akin to Hemalurgy at all.  While it's enslavement of a spren, there is a strong implication that the spren can be released from the gemstone/fabrial device it's a part of.  The one question I have that we really don't seem to have an answer to, is: what are the metal (filigree?) adornments on fabrials that we frequently see?  I seriously wonder if there's a component to fabrial science that hasn't been released yet, and I seriously wonder if it involves the willing participation of some spren.

 

My point being: Hemalurgy literally removes that aspect from the source.  Fabrials simply require the right spren locked in the right gemstone(s).  There's no removal of power from the (spren) source in the case of the fabrial, by everything we know.

Edited December 29, 2014 by dvoraen

[WeiryWriter he/him]

(Chanting)

Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!Fight! Fight!

Please do not post things like this. Hopefully it is just a joke but still it is not okay to encourage fights.

[Oudeis he/him]

For a Fabrial to work it needs a Spren or something similar. Would it be possible to use Aons and Skaze ( if that's what they are called ) to replicate Aondor's powers?

 

Recall that we already have the Alerter Fabrial, which can sense "people, object, and phenomena". Does this mean one could be set to detect allomancy, thereby replicating allomantic Bronze? If so, as far as we've seen, you don't require a Misting's spiritweb to power it.

 

So... who knows? One possibility is that you cannot use fabrials to replicate any given magic system without having something attuned to that magic system. Another possibility is that if you know what you're doing, fabrials could eventually be used to mimic any other system using nothing but spren, gems, metal and stormlight.

 

(We do know, for example, that metal from any planet will work for allomancy, and presumably by extension hemalurgy and feruchemy. And we have the example of AonDor, which can probably mimic any power, if only because it you know the right equation you can eventually do literally anything with AonDor, which is admittedly a bit of a trick answer to the conundrum.)

[Calderis he/him]

Back on topic: I don't really see Fabrials as akin to Hemalurgy at all. While it's enslavement of a spren, there is a strong implication that the spren can be released from the gemstone/fabrial device it's a part of. The one question I have that we really don't seem to have an answer to, is: what are the metal (filigree?) adornments on fabrials that we frequently see? I seriously wonder if there's a component to fabrial science that hasn't been released yet, and I seriously wonder if it involves the willing participation of some spren.

I've wondered about this too. There had to be something to the physical construction of fabrials. If it relied solely on the gemstones Shallan would never have gone to Jasnah because the broken chain wouldn't have effected the soulcaster.

And there is obviously some form of investiture in the material itself or the repair to the chain would have fixed it.

I wonder if this is as true for modern fabrials as it seems soulcasters aren't made.

Edited December 30, 2014 by Calderis

[Cold Fusion he/him]

Please do not post things like this. Hopefully it is just a joke but still it is not okay to encourage fights.

It was a joke, but sorry if it wasn't appropriate.  I haven't read a good fight since finishing words of radiance.