2012 June 18 - Mandamon - The Best Kind of Present - First 4000 words

[Mandamon he/him]

Here is the first 4K words of a 70K word YA story I wrote for NaNoWriMo last year. This is the third full-length story I've written, and I think it's my best so far... That said, I've submitted it to several agents who say it "doesn't draw them in."

Here, you are introduced to Isaac and his mother, who are traveling the history of Western Civilization in a time machine in hopes of changing it just enough to bring back Isaac's father.

The book starts with a short note about an appendix, which I added on earlier complaints that not many people know of all the historical people included. I can make it available to anyone who wants it, or just do a quick search on their name if you are curious!

[Yados]

Okay I see why agents said what they did.

You have some fine prose and a good central idea, but the way you're heading into this story is working against you. And the problem isn't the historical figures, but that you're focusing on them and ignoring something far more important. The story.

Why isn't the mom the PoV here? Isaac hasn't contributed anything beyond a pair of eyes in this whole segment.

Nothing is happening. Are exciting things going to happen to these time travelers? Yes? Start with those. Start with conflict. Why did we start with Newton? This isn't even the first time they've met.

To put it differently, Bill and Ted's excellent adventure didnt start with Bill and Ted in the time stream, finding Socrates, hoping that a movie with Socrates would be enough to keep people interested. We started with a problem that Bill and Ted had. Then we got a way to fix that proble. That involved time travel. Then we met Socrates when we knew why meeting Socrates was important to fixing the problem at the heart of the narrative.

Moving on from that, your narrative device is getting in the way of the things you want to depict. If its the mother writing, why is she referring to herself as mother? You either need to just put this into simple first and drop the journal or you need to rethink what kinds of things you want to depict.

You're taking some pretty un-academic assumptions about the historical Socrates, but then I guess this is YA. Also why just western civilatIon? They're going after thinkers. Those have existed in all cultures.

[Jack the Halls he/him]

I agree with Yados about no hook. I doubt those agents got past the first page, to be honest.

Get rid of the disclaimer. If you're doing your job as a writer, the reader should be able to understand who these historical figures are based on clues in the text. Right now, it feels more like name dropping than anything else, but then to outright admit that you didn't know who they were either?

I do like that they seem to treat their trips like road trips. It's really great that Mother wants to make stops along the way, like sight-seeing stops almost. In my opinion, this was by far the most interesting aspect of this entire opening, and it only got a paragraph.

I know English, but I couldn't go back even a few hundred years and communicate effectively with people speaking Old English. Now imagine Greek versus Ancient Greek from thousands of years ago. How could Mother possibly communicate with anyone, much less multiple people from many different backgrounds?

I do not like how ignorant Isaac is. He is far too stupid for a 12-year-old who has been traveling in time and space with his genius of a mother. "Something about the way our house travels through time." "The STUFF that made the time machine work." In fact, I think he would know more and, because he is so young, possibly brag about all the big terms and scientific stuff he knows.

Plato and Socrates feel like caricatures rather than actual people. I very highly doubt that Plato would speak in the same way he had Socrates speak in his books. What is this, the WABAC machine?

Why break the dialogue here just to have the narrator reintroduce himself?

Mother's had how long to think on these things? This trip to Plato must have been supremely disappointing. Now that I think of it, why is she bothering with philosophers when she should be traveling forward in time to talk to scientists?

She causes Plato to doubt himself in less than a page of dialogue? If either one of these people was going to convince the other, it would be Plato convincing Mother that the form couldn't be changed. She spent 9 months just to win an argument that solves nothing? The concept of trying to change time only occurs to her now? Wouldn't that have been the FIRST thing she tried before anything else? Pretty sure Plato wouldn't run from a philosophical discussion right when his own beliefs were being challenged. That goes against everything he (or Socrates through him) taught.

Is there a direct correlation between how much time it takes to travel through time. Like a year is a minute and ten years is ten minutes and so on?

The door to their house opens into a cell. Where is the rest of the house? Is this a bigger on the inside TARDIS thing?

Why is Mother even trying this? If she's so learned, she would already know that Socrates had plenty of chances to escape before this night and he chose not to. Assuming the stories we know about him are correct (and we don't know that).

You can't have a time travel story about Socrates and then have a few lines of mediocre dialogue. You could probably just start the chapter with them stepping out into Socrates's cell and combine the dialogue you had with Plat, expand upon it a lot, and maybe have one good chapter.

The second most recent episode of Writing Excuses is about Time Travel. You should check it out.

[Mandamon he/him]

Thanks all!

Good points about the intro. This actually gives me some hope for the rest of the book, because a lot of things you've brought up are answered there. Looks like I need to move them forward.

Why isn't the mom the PoV here? Isaac hasn't contributed anything beyond a pair of eyes in this whole segment.

Isaac definitely starts running the show later, as he grows up, but it sounds like I need to get some action in earlier.

I do not like how ignorant Isaac is. He is far too stupid for a 12-year-old who has been traveling in time and space with his genius of a mother. "Something about the way our house travels through time." "The STUFF that made the time machine work." In fact, I think he would know more and, because he is so young, possibly brag about all the big terms and scientific stuff he knows.

Isaac was originally 8, and my first set of readers all complained that he was too smart! This is also why he is more of an observer at the beginning. Would 10 be more believable? He ages about 6 years during the course of the book.

Get rid of the disclaimer. If you're doing your job as a writer, the reader should be able to understand who these historical figures are based on clues in the text. Right now, it feels more like name dropping than anything else, but then to outright admit that you didn't know who they were either?

To put it differently, Bill and Ted's excellent adventure didnt start with Bill and Ted in the time stream, finding Socrates, hoping that a movie with Socrates would be enough to keep people interested. We started with a problem that Bill and Ted had. Then we got a way to fix that proble. That involved time travel. Then we met Socrates when we knew why meeting Socrates was important to fixing the problem at the heart of the narrative.

I was thinking the prospect of imagined meetings with historical figures would be a good hook, but it seems like that fell on its face. Sounds like if I pull in some conflict of why they are running through time first, it will help. Right now, that doesn't happen until later.

You're taking some pretty un-academic assumptions about the historical Socrates, but then I guess this is YA. Also why just western civilatIon? They're going after thinkers. Those have existed in all cultures.

Is there a direct correlation between how much time it takes to travel through time. Like a year is a minute and ten years is ten minutes and so on?

The door to their house opens into a cell. Where is the rest of the house? Is this a bigger on the inside TARDIS thing?

The second most recent episode of Writing Excuses is about Time Travel. You should check it out.

Yes, this is YA and I purposely didn't go into a lot of detail on the translation and culture clash. I mention that they both study languages a lot, but sort of leave it at that. I wanted the book to be more of the Doctor Who timey-wimey bent than with very stringent time travel rules. The western civ question and the description of the house are handled a little later on.

There is a direct correlation on time travel to time passing, which becomes a plot point. I have a whole spreadsheet for it

And the Time Travel episode was the reason I posted this. I figured I would get some good feedback because of it.

Thanks again! One more question--do people want to see more of this book, or do you think the premise is too damaged and I should take it aside for rework and post something else for now?

[Jack the Halls he/him]

The premise is great. A mother and son traveling through time on a timey-wimey highway in order to save their father? I'd read more based on that premise alone.

I think you could have hooked with the Socrates stuff, but it was just too short and too dumbed down. Don't use the fact that you are writing YA as an excuse to dumb it down. Kids are smarter than you think, especially kids who would be reading a time travel story about meeting historical figures. I'd say write it as smart as it would be in real life, at least first, then go back and clearify whatever your YA beta readers didn't understand, if that makes sense.

I think 8 is believable based on the level it is written at. I think possibly, your other readers were thinking that he was smarter than any 8-year-old they knew, but he's not a normal 8-year-old is he? Look at Orson Scott Card's children. They're all geniuses and it still works out. A child in this situation would be smarter than a normal 8-year old. Even at 8, I think he would know some technical terms and phrases even if he didn't know what it really meant. It would be more imitation of his mother, a need to understand for her sake.

Personally, I'd prefer you leave him 12 and boost up his know-how and vocabulary about ten fold, but maybe only because I have a 12-year-old in my head already.

Right now he seems like, Oh, I'm just along for the ride. Which is fine, if you build it in such a way that the Mother doesn't involve him in stuff. But that isn't who Mother is, in my eyes, ya know?

[cjhuitt he/him]

Well, it was an easy read, and for someone with a passing knowledge of the philosophical arguments made by Plato, somewhat amusing.

However, I have to agree with the others on the way Isaac doesn't seem like a good choice for a protagonist at this point. He needs something to give him an obstacle, or a goal, or more than just ride along and write things down. Of course, that's assuming he is the protagonist, but by four chapters in his POV, that's probably a solid assumption.

I see that you mention he knows more and is more active later in the story. How quickly can we get to that point? How much would be lost if we just skipped there? Even if you need some of the information between here and there, can you jump straight there, then have a flashback or something to add the extra information? (I usually don't suggest this, because I'm usually of the opinion that without overriding reasons, the best way to tell a story is the chronological way, but what the heck, this is a time travel story after all. Why not try mixing things up a bit?)

I was also a little confused as to the target audience, or at least age group. You mention it's a YA novel, but the protagonist is 12 (right now), and most YA novels have a protagonist slightly older than their target readers. That would suggest more of a middle-grade level, and I thought the way it was written fit better there also. However, some of the topics weren't explained well enough for many readers of that level to understand, I don't think. I'm especially thinking about Plato's ideal form philosophy. Newton being into alchemy or Socrates dying by drinking hemlock, those they either might know or are simple enough to explain. The ideal form is much harder, and I'm not sure how much they'll get out of Socrates conversing in questions, either. Of course, I don't know if your goals are to introduce people to these things, or if they are in there because that's how a conversation with those figures might go, but I have my doubts.

So far as the language and culture clashes and what-not, I took that as a given in a time-travel story. Most time-travel stories, anyway; there are exceptions. I would expect some small amounts of culture clash, at least, to show up in Isaac's POV, as he would be eating foods he hasn't experienced before, and seeing sights, and the smells would be wildly different, plus the way people move around would catch his attention, and.... I'll stop here; you know probably as well as I do. I'd just suggest putting some of it in, rather than keeping all of it out.

Finally, if this story ends up having a lot to do with philosophy, you might find yourself with a somewhat limited audience. I'd probably enjoy it, and many of my friends would, but I don't know many people who read stories heavy on the philosophy for enjoyment.

[TheSadDragon]

Hello, hello

just finished going through this one and while i feel far from the target audience for this I think it has some great potential. I have to say that when i started reading this I immediately thought of Sophies' World -- not that they are the same but it felt like they might have similar goals.

I for one didn't really have any problem with Isaac as the POV character, in fact, i think he needs to be the POV character if you want to go the 'edutainment' route. Sure it might be mostly tangential learning that will happen -- depending on how much time we get to spend with the grates and how much of their ideas you wans to flesh out in the story itself. You have Isaac as the unlearned person which, i assume, will learn all about the greats and their contributions to our history throughout the story. The Mother having the role of someone who already knows things, though from what I have read so far I think she also has room to learn and grow.

Sadly there are some problems with the story as it is now.

I agree with cjhutti that chronological order might be the best way to go -- thats to say, chronological for Isaac. I would even go so far as to suggest starting with how Isaac's father disappeared which can serve as a starting point for the quest to get him back. The quest seems to already be there but I think knowing about it, or even following Isaac as he and his mother decides to embark on said quest would be more effective. It would give Isaac a reason to be more active in the story and would also let the readers invent more in learning about the Greats as they seem to be the key to getting the father back.

This is me again. Isaac. I’m writing in after Mother finished. I don’t understand half of what they are talking about. Here goes Mother again…

This was, perhapps, the only one thing that I didn't like in the whole story -- as well a few similar lines.

For me this broke the flow of the story though I still think you can add breaks if you want but I would put them in the scene rather then breaking the narrative.

Overall I found it an easy read and I and as I have the next ~4k words I don't have to look forward to getting more to read, I can just go ahead and read

-TSD

[Mandamon he/him]

Thanks for even more feedback!

By now, I'm certain I need to rewrite this... And I think starting with the conflict (duh) might be a better choice.

This is me again. Isaac. I’m writing in after Mother finished. I don’t understand half of what they are talking about. Here goes Mother again…

This was, perhapps, the only one thing that I didn't like in the whole story -- as well a few similar lines.

For me this broke the flow of the story though I still think you can add breaks if you want but I would put them in the scene rather then breaking the narrative.

I feel like I should address this, as it seems to be the most hated part. I threw this in sort of on a whim in a very late edit, but it obviously messes up the flow of the story pretty badly! Originally it was just Isaac relating in his journal, but the discussion with Plato got very technical on Forms and Ideals, and I thought it would be way past his age limit to decode and report on. Anyway, this will be the first thing to go...

I have to say that when i started reading this I immediately thought of Sophies' World -- not that they are the same but it felt like they might have similar goals.

Sophie's World: I've heard of this before but never read it. I'll have to check it out. Thanks for the tip!