Are shards actually infinite?

[The Living Avo]

Brandon is very fond of the phrase "Shards are infinite, but Vessels are not." To me this could mean two things:

1) Shards cannot run out of investiture. They are omnipotent and omniscient, or at least are nearly so. Vessels are an imperfect conduit for this power.

2) Brandon is just using hyperbole to say a shard's investiture always water cycles back into the spiritual realm so they can use it again. If they were to do some amazing feat like nuking multiple solar systems, they'd be impotent until the investiture they used returned to the spiritual realm.

I think it's number two, as shards have so many limits placed on them, and, for example, Preservation and Ruin couldn't create either Scadrial or the life on it on their own. (I forget which) However, these may just be examples of the Vessels not being able to fully use their shard's power.

[alder24]

39 minutes ago, The Living Avo said:

Brandon is very fond of the phrase "Shards are infinite, but Vessels are not." To me this could mean two things:

1) Shards cannot run out of investiture. They are omnipotent and omniscient, or at least are nearly so. Vessels are an imperfect conduit for this power.

2) Brandon is just using hyperbole to say a shard's investiture always water cycles back into the spiritual realm so they can use it again. If they were to do some amazing feat like nuking multiple solar systems, they'd be impotent until the investiture they used returned to the spiritual realm.

I think it's number two, as shards have so many limits placed on them, and, for example, Preservation and Ruin couldn't create either Scadrial or the life on it on their own. (I forget which) However, these may just be examples of the Vessels not being able to fully use their shard's power.

It's both. Shards consist of the mind (Vessel) and the power. The power is basically infinite, but the mind of a Vessel is finite, so they cannot use that infinite power no matter how hard they try. The power is also limited by Shardic Intent and that's why Preservation and Ruin weren't able to create Scadrial on separately.

But we also have the situation with Ruin and Preservation being unbalanced, because Preservation gave more of himself to create humanity and it gave Ruin an edge - that's the limitation of the Vessel's finite mind being able to tap only a final amount of infinite power. The cycle of investiture is relevant here as both the Preservation's fragment in humanity and Atium were part of investiture that both Vessels could access but it was invested, making it unusable to them until that investiture was cycled back to Shards. Atium was even completely separated from Ruin, trapped in the Atium cycle until Ruin himself could consume it - Elend burning Atium didn't return investiture to Ruin, it returned it to the closed cycle out of Ruin's reach. That's why Ruin and Preservation were balanced even though Preservation gave more of himself to humanity, because part of the investiture Ati could access was stolen from him. 

 

Spoiler

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Very Nice Name 16

You write a lot of immortals in your books. How do you think about people living on large time frames like that and how that affects the way they think and act compared to ordinary people? And also, say, 10,000-year-old compared to a 2000-year-old to a 300-year-old?

Brandon Sanderson

This is actually something I've dedicated a lot of thought to. I think fantasy and science fiction, one of the things it does well is explore human experiences that aren't possible in contemporary or realistic fiction. And so there are a lot of people out there searching for the key to human immortality. And what would it be like? How would we deal with it? These are questions that are interesting to me, and doing a story on a 10,000-year timescale lets me play around with that. I will say that various people you've met are immortal; some are not. Some, it's more time dilation shenanigans than it is extended lifespan.

But regardless, how do I approach this? By gut and instinct, just trying different things out. No human being's experience is identical to another human being's experience, so I figure no immortal's experience will be identical to other immortals' experiences, and so I can have lots of different responses. I can base it partially on the magic system and how they were made immortal. And then that lets me play with different experiences. Like, the things the Heralds are going through, Hoid hasn't gone through. Some of the sort of degradation of what's happening with their souls is unique... not wholly unique, but individual to the experiences they're having. And I play with those differently than I play with someone who's been elevated to holding near-infinite power in one of the Shards and how their experience goes. And then you've got, just, random people who have run across things that have changed their experiences in different ways, and I will approach them in a different way. And I can't really say how exactly I'm gonna do this with everybody. It's just gonna be different for each character in each situation.

That's a very long non-answer. I've thought about it a lot; I don't have answers yet. You'll see them in the books when I write them.

YouTube Livestream 39 (Feb. 1, 2022)

 

Spoiler

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

Spoiler

Chaos (paraphrased)

What would have happened if Ruin did get the atium? Yeah, the world is destroyed, but how does Ruin "absorb" the atium so he can utilize the power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He would metabolize it, just like the normal people have to do. However, if he did get it he would then be able to destroy the world.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

[The Living Avo]

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's both. Shards consist of the mind (Vessel) and the power. The power is basically infinite, but the mind of a Vessel is finite, so they cannot use that infinite power no matter how hard they try. The power is also limited by Shardic Intent and that's why Preservation and Ruin weren't able to create Scadrial on separately.

But we also have the situation with Ruin and Preservation being unbalanced, because Preservation gave more of himself to create humanity and it gave Ruin an edge - that's the limitation of the Vessel's finite mind being able to tap only a final amount of infinite power. The cycle of investiture is relevant here as both the Preservation's fragment in humanity and Atium were part of investiture that both Vessels could access but it was invested, making it unusable to them until that investiture was cycled back to Shards. Atium was even completely separated from Ruin, trapped in the Atium cycle until Ruin himself could consume it - Elend burning Atium didn't return investiture to Ruin, it returned it to the closed cycle out of Ruin's reach. That's why Ruin and Preservation were balanced even though Preservation gave more of himself to humanity, because part of the investiture Ati could access was stolen from him. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Very Nice Name 16

You write a lot of immortals in your books. How do you think about people living on large time frames like that and how that affects the way they think and act compared to ordinary people? And also, say, 10,000-year-old compared to a 2000-year-old to a 300-year-old?

Brandon Sanderson

This is actually something I've dedicated a lot of thought to. I think fantasy and science fiction, one of the things it does well is explore human experiences that aren't possible in contemporary or realistic fiction. And so there are a lot of people out there searching for the key to human immortality. And what would it be like? How would we deal with it? These are questions that are interesting to me, and doing a story on a 10,000-year timescale lets me play around with that. I will say that various people you've met are immortal; some are not. Some, it's more time dilation shenanigans than it is extended lifespan.

But regardless, how do I approach this? By gut and instinct, just trying different things out. No human being's experience is identical to another human being's experience, so I figure no immortal's experience will be identical to other immortals' experiences, and so I can have lots of different responses. I can base it partially on the magic system and how they were made immortal. And then that lets me play with different experiences. Like, the things the Heralds are going through, Hoid hasn't gone through. Some of the sort of degradation of what's happening with their souls is unique... not wholly unique, but individual to the experiences they're having. And I play with those differently than I play with someone who's been elevated to holding near-infinite power in one of the Shards and how their experience goes. And then you've got, just, random people who have run across things that have changed their experiences in different ways, and I will approach them in a different way. And I can't really say how exactly I'm gonna do this with everybody. It's just gonna be different for each character in each situation.

That's a very long non-answer. I've thought about it a lot; I don't have answers yet. You'll see them in the books when I write them.

YouTube Livestream 39 (Feb. 1, 2022)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Chaos (paraphrased)

What would have happened if Ruin did get the atium? Yeah, the world is destroyed, but how does Ruin "absorb" the atium so he can utilize the power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He would metabolize it, just like the normal people have to do. However, if he did get it he would then be able to destroy the world.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

Thanks for the answer and WoBs. To me, Preservation and Ruin's power limitations mean they either have finite investiture, or the shards are only ever able to control a certain part of their shard's investiture. In other words, their shard has infinite BEUs, but once they ascend they will only ever get to control like 10 BEUs for example. If 1 BEU of investiture gets trapped, then they will only have 9 to work with forever until they can reclaim that investiture. Thoughts?

20 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

It's both. Shards consist of the mind (Vessel) and the power. The power is basically infinite, but the mind of a Vessel is finite, so they cannot use that infinite power no matter how hard they try. The power is also limited by Shardic Intent and that's why Preservation and Ruin weren't able to create Scadrial on separately.

But we also have the situation with Ruin and Preservation being unbalanced, because Preservation gave more of himself to create humanity and it gave Ruin an edge - that's the limitation of the Vessel's finite mind being able to tap only a final amount of infinite power. The cycle of investiture is relevant here as both the Preservation's fragment in humanity and Atium were part of investiture that both Vessels could access but it was invested, making it unusable to them until that investiture was cycled back to Shards. Atium was even completely separated from Ruin, trapped in the Atium cycle until Ruin himself could consume it - Elend burning Atium didn't return investiture to Ruin, it returned it to the closed cycle out of Ruin's reach. That's why Ruin and Preservation were balanced even though Preservation gave more of himself to humanity, because part of the investiture Ati could access was stolen from him. 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

With Shards, are there any... limits? What can't they do? Besides being opposed by another Shard and their own intent?

Brandon Sanderson

It varies a lot. It varies based on experience and situation. They are not omnipotent, though the power is infinite. So that is the weird part that you get into. So, they are limited partially by their own limitations, and also the limitations imposed upon them by the situations they're in.

Questioner

Is there anything universal about all of them?

Brandon Sanderson

They all have bits of them in all of the cosmere, so that's universal. They all are bounded more by themselves than by the power itself.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Very Nice Name 16

You write a lot of immortals in your books. How do you think about people living on large time frames like that and how that affects the way they think and act compared to ordinary people? And also, say, 10,000-year-old compared to a 2000-year-old to a 300-year-old?

Brandon Sanderson

This is actually something I've dedicated a lot of thought to. I think fantasy and science fiction, one of the things it does well is explore human experiences that aren't possible in contemporary or realistic fiction. And so there are a lot of people out there searching for the key to human immortality. And what would it be like? How would we deal with it? These are questions that are interesting to me, and doing a story on a 10,000-year timescale lets me play around with that. I will say that various people you've met are immortal; some are not. Some, it's more time dilation shenanigans than it is extended lifespan.

But regardless, how do I approach this? By gut and instinct, just trying different things out. No human being's experience is identical to another human being's experience, so I figure no immortal's experience will be identical to other immortals' experiences, and so I can have lots of different responses. I can base it partially on the magic system and how they were made immortal. And then that lets me play with different experiences. Like, the things the Heralds are going through, Hoid hasn't gone through. Some of the sort of degradation of what's happening with their souls is unique... not wholly unique, but individual to the experiences they're having. And I play with those differently than I play with someone who's been elevated to holding near-infinite power in one of the Shards and how their experience goes. And then you've got, just, random people who have run across things that have changed their experiences in different ways, and I will approach them in a different way. And I can't really say how exactly I'm gonna do this with everybody. It's just gonna be different for each character in each situation.

That's a very long non-answer. I've thought about it a lot; I don't have answers yet. You'll see them in the books when I write them.

YouTube Livestream 39 (Feb. 1, 2022)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Questioner

For Adonalsium to create the universe, therefore he must have infinite power to create an infinitely sized universe. Therefore, infinity divided by sixteen is equal to infinity. Therefore, why don't the Shards have infinite power, which they clearly don't, because they can be killed?

Brandon Sanderson

The power can't be killed. The entity controlling the power can. Infinite power existing and being able to access the infinite power are different things, and a finite mind, even added to a very powerful sense of power, isn't necessarily able to tap all of that.

Questioner

What about Ruin and Preservation in Well of Ascension? We hear about Ruin using some of its power. Therefore, it must not have infinite power, because if you minus something from infinity, it's still infinity...

Brandon Sanderson

So, infinite power is changing forms. It's not going anywhere, right? So, the Investiture, the power, is becoming energy, which is doing work, which is being released back into the system. Nothing's growing or shrinking. It is simply changing forms, and potential energy is becoming kinetic.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Chaos (paraphrased)

What would have happened if Ruin did get the atium? Yeah, the world is destroyed, but how does Ruin "absorb" the atium so he can utilize the power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

He would metabolize it, just like the normal people have to do. However, if he did get it he would then be able to destroy the world.

Ancient 17S Q&A (May 1, 2010)

 

I think I quoted you twice on accident. There's some glitch which didn't let me see the quotation when typing or editing.

23 minutes ago, alder24 said:

 

[alder24]

14 minutes ago, The Living Avo said:

Thanks for the answer and WoBs. To me, Preservation and Ruin's power limitations mean they either have finite investiture, or the shards are only ever able to control a certain part of their shard's investiture. In other words, their shard has infinite BEUs, but once they ascend they will only ever get to control like 10 BEUs for example. If 1 BEU of investiture gets trapped, then they will only have 9 to work with forever until they can reclaim that investiture. Thoughts?

Yes, that's also how I interpret this. That limitation comes from the fact that Vessel's mind isn't infinite, but interestingly enough it's not a hard limit. It seems like Vessels can expand the amount of investiture they can access and that's how Autonomy creates her Avatars:

Spoiler

[...]

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

[...]

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)