Invesiture Mass Production

[The White Drake]

19 minutes ago, Frustration said:

t really is, this would be like if we had a software completely independent of any hardware, and capable of doing anything as if it had any hardware it needed.

So many of our advancements are hardware limited, but AonDor doesn't need more advanced graphics cards, better semiconductors, smaller chips, better CPUs, better cooling or anything like that.

We had the basics of the equations needed for our current AI models decades ago, we've just been waiting for hardware to catch up

Once again. Confirmed hundreds to a thousand years of advancement already, to reach current levels. Technological growth is exponential. You’re just saying once they get up there it will grow even faster, but that doesn’t change where they are now. They don’t know how to use the Aons in advanced ways yet. Its superiority to normal tech doesn’t change the basics. I see the Alcatraz effect in play in your arguments.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Aon Ene already allows Elantrians to make themselves and others smarter, and have an easier time learning. Not to mention that there are ways to use AonDor to manipulate Fortune, which would only add to the effect.

Still doesn’t change the fundamentals. You aren’t jumping from ‘few can make complex objects’ straight to ‘this equation makes me unkillable and I can destroy armies’. Speeding things up a good clip won’t turn your ‘stone age’ AonDor right into space age.

 

Ultimately any argument you could make is stymied by the fact that we know how long Elantris has been around and it hasn’t advanced at nearly the rate you want.

[WhimsyIsTheBestShard]

2 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Once again. Confirmed hundreds to a thousand years of advancement already, to reach current levels. Technological growth is exponential. You’re just saying once they get up there it will grow even faster, but that doesn’t change where they are now. They don’t know how to use the Aons in advanced ways yet. Its superiority to normal tech doesn’t change the basics. I see the Alcatraz effect in play in your arguments.

Good point. However, remember it says "in any era", so you can basically just skip kind of far in the future, and then have 100 years to fully focus on learning after that.

[Frustration]

I noticed you didn't address my points about our advancements in computers or how quickly from machine code we got to full Operating systems.

9 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Once again. Confirmed hundreds to a thousand years of advancement already, to reach current levels. Technological growth is exponential. You’re just saying once they get up there it will grow even faster, but that doesn’t change where they are now. They don’t know how to use the Aons in advanced ways yet. Its superiority to normal tech doesn’t change the basics. I see the Alcatraz effect in play in your arguments.

They can't as of the events of Elantris, which is some 400 years before Era 2. And let's not forget I get 100 years of prep time in this scenario.

For comparison the first uses of machine code were only 60 years ago

13 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Still doesn’t change the fundamentals. You aren’t jumping from ‘few can make complex objects’ straight to ‘this equation makes me unkillable and I can destroy armies’. Speeding things up a good clip won’t turn your ‘stone age’ AonDor right into space age.

I don't need everyone to be able to do it. I need exactly 1 person to have the skill.

That's it.

And as I have already demonstrated, one person can indeed have all the skills I need.

16 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Ultimately any argument you could make is stymied by the fact that we know how long Elantris has been around and it hasn’t advanced at nearly the rate you want.

Considering they've made devices that can steal shards I must disagree.

Just because Raoden couldn't means nothing.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I noticed you didn't address my points about our advancements in computers or how quickly from machine code we got to full Operating systems.

Yes, I did. I pointed out that doesn't change how the progression line builds. You still get slow advancement in the early ages and rapid in the later.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I don't need everyone to be able to do it. I need exactly 1 person to have the skill.

That's it.

And as I have already demonstrated, one person can indeed have all the skills I need.

No, you just need to invent the right Aonic equations. As you already agreed, it's more a matter of scientific progress than simple skill. Saying 'I just need one person able to make FTL engines' to get to the space age is technically true... and impossible.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They can't as of the events of Elantris, which is some 400 years before Era 2. And let's not forget I get 100 years of prep time in this scenario.

For comparison the first uses of machine code were only 60 years ago

For the third time, per WoB Elantris has been around several hundred to a thousand years, and in all that time they have not experienced such a wild level of advancement.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Considering they've made devices that can steal shards I must disagree.

Just because Raoden couldn't means nothing.

I never said anything about Raoden. I am referencing this text.

'The truth behind the Elantrian magical abilities is far more limited than Sarene or Lukel acknowledge in this chapter. If one were to go back fifteen years, one would find that the Elantrians who had the skill to fabricate complex materials "out of nothing" were actually quite rare.

As we learn later in the book, AonDor is a very complicated, difficult skill to master. As I was writing this book, I imagined the complicated Aons that Raoden eventually learns how to draw being only springboards to massive equations that could take weeks to plan out and write. Fabricating something very complex would require a great deal of detail in the AonDor recipe.'

 

IDK why it is you always want to insist the Elantrians be crazy OP, but the text simply doesn't support the idea that they'll just delete all opposition. If nothing else, we're told flat out in WaT that with only a few decades, Roshar's armies would be able to conquer the entire Cosmere- and that includes Elantris around Era 2. It's also stated that Roshar has the strongest military of any in the Cosmere. So hard limit, we know for a fact the Elantrians are still below the Rosharans.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

Yes, I did. I pointed out that doesn't change how the progression line builds. You still get slow advancement in the early ages and rapid in the later.

And as I will describe later we already passed the early stages.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

No, you just need to invent the right Aonic equations. As you already agreed, it's more a matter of scientific progress than simple skill. Saying 'I just need one person able to make FTL engines' to get to the space age is technically true... and impossible.

But it's not impossible as we have seen Elantrians in the books with this level of knowledge. As I've stated before Elantrians have made aonic devices capable of manipulating Shards of Adonalsium.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

For the third time, per WoB Elantris has been around several hundred to a thousand years, and in all that time they have not experienced such a wild level of advancement.

That's irrelevant as back then they didn't know the aons at all, as Aonic was not a natural development but one that was discovered.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning.

The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula.

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered."

There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/133/#e2173

Therefore the Elantrian powers not processing as we do over thousands of years is easily explainable, as is the fact that they will progress similar to ourselves in computing, because the language has already been discovered.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

I never said anything about Raoden. I am referencing this text.

'The truth behind the Elantrian magical abilities is far more limited than Sarene or Lukel acknowledge in this chapter. If one were to go back fifteen years, one would find that the Elantrians who had the skill to fabricate complex materials "out of nothing" were actually quite rare.

As we learn later in the book, AonDor is a very complicated, difficult skill to master. As I was writing this book, I imagined the complicated Aons that Raoden eventually learns how to draw being only springboards to massive equations that could take weeks to plan out and write. Fabricating something very complex would require a great deal of detail in the AonDor recipe.'

I'm aware, but that WoB in no way supports your argument. It was rare, just as the ability to code drivers is for us. We can still do it.

The ability to master high level AonDor is rare for Elantrians. However, they can still do it.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

IDK why it is you always want to insist the Elantrians be crazy OP, but the text simply doesn't support the idea that they'll just delete all opposition.

I never said that they would delete all opposition, just that they are the most powerful and versatile magic set in the cosmere outside of shards/dawnshard with the possible exception of Bondsmiths. And that they are the best for the scenario described in the OP. Which multiple WoBs do support and we do see in the text.

Even Xiris, who is a dragon, tenth heightening awakener, and casually owns multiple planets, is scared of an Elantrian.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

If nothing else, we're told flat out in WaT that with only a few decades, Roshar's armies would be able to conquer the entire Cosmere- and that includes Elantris around Era 2.

We are not told that. In fact Taravangian was planning on waiting centuries before fighting for the Cosmere.

1 hour ago, The White Drake said:

It's also stated that Roshar has the strongest military of any in the Cosmere. So hard limit, we know for a fact the Elantrians are still below the Rosharans.

In Nohadon's opinion, and one I can see a real argument for, even if I disagree.

Edited 14 hours ago by Frustration

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

But it's not impossible as we have seen Elantrians in the books with this level of knowledge. As I've stated before Elantrians have made aonic devices capable of manipulating Shards of Adonalsium.

Point.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

That's irrelevant as back then they didn't know the aons at all, as Aonic was not a natural development but one that was discovered.

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning.

The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula.

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered."

There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet.

 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/133/#e2173

Therefore the Elantrian powers not processing as we do over thousands of years is easily explainable, as is the fact that they will progress similar to ourselves in computing, because the language has already been discovered.

He specifies there that was BEFORE Elantris was around. We know it's already been around for hundreds to a thousand years. Knowing about the language doesn't mean knowing everything about it, they need to learn through trial and error. And FYI, that WoB is exactly describing the earliest stages of scientific advancement.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I'm aware, but that WoB in no way supports your argument. It was rare, just as the ability to code drivers is for us. We can still do it.

The ability to master high level AonDor is rare for Elantrians. However, they can still do it.

If this not particularly impressive power is rare, that implies the far more impressive things (like immortality layers) are even more rare to the point of nonexistence. It is practically the only example we have of AonDor technological levels during that time. Brandon is specifically calling out AonDor as more limited than what the characters were describing, and you describe it as far superior to what they say.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

I never said that they would delete all opposition, just that they are the most powerful and versatile magic set in the cosmere outside of shards/dawnshard with the possible exception of Bondsmiths. And that they are the best for the scenario described in the OP. Which multiple WoBs do support and we do see in the text.

Even Xiris, who is a dragon, tenth heightening awakener, and casually owns multiple planets, is scared of an Elantrian.

You have said before they just 'instawin anything'. We also don't see any indication Xisis is scared of Riina, just doesn't want to get involved, and she's got a lot more going for her than just being an Elantrian. The WoBs give us a lot of theoreticals AonDor can do, but call it out as limited in the time of the book and for hundreds of years before.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

We are not told that. In fact Taravangian was planning on waiting centuries before fighting for the Cosmere.

We both remembered wrong. The time frame is between our claims. The exact text: "He'd have access to the finest military in the whole of the Cosmere. He'd have time to plan, build, and raise a new force of Fused that aren't suffering from mental fatigue. In a hundred years or so, he'd be able to launch his armies and conquer everything with ease."

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

In Nohadon's opinion, and one I can see a real argument for, even if I disagree.

Since our knowledge of Sel during that time period is nonexistent, I think he knows more about the capabilities of Elantrians than we do.



(The whole debate is pretty moot though, since we've been told you can't spam-invite an army of Elantrians into existence, which kind of wrecks the entire basis.)

[Frustration]

35 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

He specifies there that was BEFORE Elantris was around. We know it's already been around for hundreds to a thousand years. Knowing about the language doesn't mean knowing everything about it, they need to learn through trial and error. And FYI, that WoB is exactly describing the earliest stages of scientific advancement.

The exact words were

Quote

who probably didn't even have Elantris back then

Note the word probably. Other WoBs make it clear that the city of Elantris predates the Elantrians that would come to inhabit it.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Meaning

Aon Ehe represents the primal force of Fire. A complex Aon with only basic symmetry, its form has often been likened to wisps of tickling fire burning out from a central coal.

While the many poets in history seem to have preferred the overall symmetry of an Aon like Aon Omi or Aon Rao, not a few preferred Aon Ehe for its distinctive look and feel. (Much like Aon Shao, this Aon breaks with traditional Aon form in appearance.) For this reason, and because of the destructive yet vital power of fire, the Poet Lenehe of the fifth century named Aon Ehe “The most inspiring of all Aons, a symbol for those with a creative heart and an unhindered mind.”

Recently, this Aon–easily recognizable, even to the uneducated–has become synonymous with ‘Danger,’ and is used as a warning. In many cases, in fact, it is printed on warnings which have nothing at all to do with fire. One might find it upon an unsteady bridge or a wood hiding dangerous wolves just as easily as one might find it referencing actual flames.

History And Use

All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered. Some modern scholars scoff at such tales, but Aon Ehe’s origin myth is well known among the common people and believed by most.

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

The transformation of the first Elantrians happened beginning several decades later. Princess Elashe–the first of Raoshem’s line to be chosen as an Elantrian–claimed to have seen the pattern of this Aon inscribed on a coal in her hearth the day after she underwent the transformation. Whether or not this story is true, a coal or rock written with Aon Ehe on it is considered good luck and a ward against winter spirits. (Though this kind of superstition is frowned upon by the Korathi priests.)

Other uses of Ehe are plentiful. It is one of the primal elements, and is often used in scientific writings. It is a ward and warning against danger. It is used on signs in conjunction with other Aons to mean warm food or warm beds available. Some artists and poets choose it as their symbol, both to hint at the dangerous nature of artistry and to speak of the passion of artistry.

Naming and Usage in ELANTRIS

Aon Ehe is often mispronounced as “E-hay.” Though scholars of Aonic insist that the proper term, “E-Hee” is more accurate, the former is slowly being acknowledged as an acceptable pronunciation as well. It is infrequently used in names during modern days, as the meaning ‘Danger’ is seen as unfavorable. However, historically, it was a favorite Aon for poets and artists (who often took new names for themselves when entering into their maturity as an artist, a tradition by which they removed themselves from their old body of work and indicated that they were beginning anew.)

Some famous examples of names from Aon Ehe include the poet Ehen, the artist Ehelan, and Mehen the philosopher.

AonDor

Aon Ehe is one of the most spectacular, useful, and awe inspiring of base Aons when used by an Elantrian. There are many Aons which have destructive or powerful effects, but none are as strong without modification as Aon Ehe.

Drawn simply, the Aon creates a column of flame, acting as a direct and primal conduit to the Dor itself. The diameter of the column depends on the size of the Aon drawn, and the direction the column is launched depends on the direction the Aon is facing. Often, this Aon is drawn on the floor so that a column of pure fire can be launched up into the air. The column is brief–only lasting a few seconds–but incredibly powerful.

With some enhancement modifiers, this Aon can be made to last longer. The pre-Reod AonDor scholars crafted lamps with flames that continued to burn no matter which way they were turned. They would even continue to burn beneath water. This Aon can be used in warfare, if necessary, though Aon Daa is generally a better weapon.

As a modifier, Aon Ehe can be used to create a ward that sets off other Aon chains. It provides one of the more useful tools in an AonDor practitioner’s repertoire, though the difficulty in drawing it can make it difficult to use for the less talented.

Brandon's Blog 2008 (April 25, 2008)

So yes, the slow discovery of Aons one at a time did overlap with the time post creation and habitation of Elantris.

39 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

If this not particularly impressive power is rare, that implies the far more impressive things (like immortality layers) are even more rare to the point of nonexistence. It is practically the only example we have of AonDor technological levels during that time. Brandon is specifically calling out AonDor as more limited than what the characters were describing, and you describe it as far superior to what they say.

The character treat every Elantrian as basically able to do anything.

I say that those who knew how would be able to.

My description is more limited.

41 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

You have said before they just 'instawin anything'.

If you can quote that post I will be happy to correct myself.

As is I think you have me confused for someone else.

42 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

We also don't see any indication Xisis is scared of Riina, just doesn't want to get involved, and she's got a lot more going for her than just being an Elantrian.

Tress page 378

Quote

"No," he[Xisis] said. "Nor will I do anything to help your quest. There is precisely one being I fear on this planet--- and no, your friend Chephandrius doesn't count."

 

47 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

We both remembered wrong. The time frame is between our claims. The exact text: "He'd have access to the finest military in the whole of the Cosmere. He'd have time to plan, build, and raise a new force of Fused that aren't suffering from mental fatigue. In a hundred years or so, he'd be able to launch his armies and conquer everything with ease."

I went with Taravagian's timeline, not Nohadon's.

WaT page 1296

Quote

He immediately saw what Dalinar had done. Odium had expected to have centuries to plan. Suddenly he had lost all of that. The true battle for the cosmere started right now.

 

53 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Since our knowledge of Sel during that time period is nonexistent, I think he knows more about the capabilities of Elantrians than we do.

Or about what Autonomy will do to the planet in the intervening time. Because while Elantrians are great, a shard can still screw them up.

Spoiler

strican

In The Lost Metal, it mentions Autonomy having avatars in other worlds. In Shu-Dereth on Sel, Jaddeth speaks directly to Wyrn, who then propagates his will down the hierarchy-

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

strican

Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. That sounds similar to the philosophy used in the Set, but replacing Jaddeth with Trell. Is Jaddeth an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

*chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person.

It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ...

So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth].

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

 

55 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

(The whole debate is pretty moot though, since we've been told you can't spam-invite an army of Elantrians into existence, which kind of wrecks the entire basis.)

Unless you're talking about there being a limit to the number of Elantrians there can be at one time, I do not recall this.

[The White Drake]

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

The exact words were

Quote

who probably didn't even have Elantris back then

Note the word probably. Other WoBs make it clear that the city of Elantris predates the Elantrians that would come to inhabit it.

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Meaning

Aon Ehe represents the primal force of Fire. A complex Aon with only basic symmetry, its form has often been likened to wisps of tickling fire burning out from a central coal.

While the many poets in history seem to have preferred the overall symmetry of an Aon like Aon Omi or Aon Rao, not a few preferred Aon Ehe for its distinctive look and feel. (Much like Aon Shao, this Aon breaks with traditional Aon form in appearance.) For this reason, and because of the destructive yet vital power of fire, the Poet Lenehe of the fifth century named Aon Ehe “The most inspiring of all Aons, a symbol for those with a creative heart and an unhindered mind.”

Recently, this Aon–easily recognizable, even to the uneducated–has become synonymous with ‘Danger,’ and is used as a warning. In many cases, in fact, it is printed on warnings which have nothing at all to do with fire. One might find it upon an unsteady bridge or a wood hiding dangerous wolves just as easily as one might find it referencing actual flames.

History And Use

All Aons exist independent of humankind, their symbols inherently tied to their meaning, but few have distinct origin stories explaining how the Aon was first discovered. Some modern scholars scoff at such tales, but Aon Ehe’s origin myth is well known among the common people and believed by most.

The story tells of the first princess of Arelon. This was some years after the founding of Arelon following the migration of the Aonic people from other lands. Elantris, of course, had already existed as a city when that migration occurred, and had been discovered empty. While some people assumed it haunted, Proud King Rhashm (later renamed Raoshem) determined to conquer the fears of his people and set up a kingdom centered on Elantris.

The transformation of the first Elantrians happened beginning several decades later. Princess Elashe–the first of Raoshem’s line to be chosen as an Elantrian–claimed to have seen the pattern of this Aon inscribed on a coal in her hearth the day after she underwent the transformation. Whether or not this story is true, a coal or rock written with Aon Ehe on it is considered good luck and a ward against winter spirits. (Though this kind of superstition is frowned upon by the Korathi priests.)

Other uses of Ehe are plentiful. It is one of the primal elements, and is often used in scientific writings. It is a ward and warning against danger. It is used on signs in conjunction with other Aons to mean warm food or warm beds available. Some artists and poets choose it as their symbol, both to hint at the dangerous nature of artistry and to speak of the passion of artistry.

Naming and Usage in ELANTRIS

Aon Ehe is often mispronounced as “E-hay.” Though scholars of Aonic insist that the proper term, “E-Hee” is more accurate, the former is slowly being acknowledged as an acceptable pronunciation as well. It is infrequently used in names during modern days, as the meaning ‘Danger’ is seen as unfavorable. However, historically, it was a favorite Aon for poets and artists (who often took new names for themselves when entering into their maturity as an artist, a tradition by which they removed themselves from their old body of work and indicated that they were beginning anew.)

Some famous examples of names from Aon Ehe include the poet Ehen, the artist Ehelan, and Mehen the philosopher.

AonDor

Aon Ehe is one of the most spectacular, useful, and awe inspiring of base Aons when used by an Elantrian. There are many Aons which have destructive or powerful effects, but none are as strong without modification as Aon Ehe.

Drawn simply, the Aon creates a column of flame, acting as a direct and primal conduit to the Dor itself. The diameter of the column depends on the size of the Aon drawn, and the direction the column is launched depends on the direction the Aon is facing. Often, this Aon is drawn on the floor so that a column of pure fire can be launched up into the air. The column is brief–only lasting a few seconds–but incredibly powerful.

With some enhancement modifiers, this Aon can be made to last longer. The pre-Reod AonDor scholars crafted lamps with flames that continued to burn no matter which way they were turned. They would even continue to burn beneath water. This Aon can be used in warfare, if necessary, though Aon Daa is generally a better weapon.

As a modifier, Aon Ehe can be used to create a ward that sets off other Aon chains. It provides one of the more useful tools in an AonDor practitioner’s repertoire, though the difficulty in drawing it can make it difficult to use for the less talented.

Brandon's Blog 2008 (April 25, 2008)

So yes, the slow discovery of Aons one at a time did overlap with the time post creation and habitation of Elantris.

I see. Still matches up with normal scientific progress, not hyper-accelerated. They're probably still discovering new modifiers.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Tress page 378

Quote

"No," he[Xisis] said. "Nor will I do anything to help your quest. There is precisely one being I fear on this planet--- and no, your friend Chephandrius doesn't count."

Yielded.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Or about what Autonomy will do to the planet in the intervening time. Because while Elantrians are great, a shard can still screw them up.

Very unknown.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

Unless you're talking about there being a limit to the number of Elantrians there can be at one time, I do not recall this.

That is it. It was a reason given for why, specifically, they can't just increase their numbers in the context of conquering the world. We kind of left if behind.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

The character treat every Elantrian as basically able to do anything.

I say that those who knew how would be able to.

My description is more limited.

It's really not...

On 6/30/2026 at 7:39 AM, Frustration said:

How each of them could be equipped just for standard life to be near invulnerable. Making dedicated armor and weapons, and I'm not sure what you're supposed to do with that.

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

If you can quote that post I will be happy to correct myself.

As is I think you have me confused for someone else.

On 7/8/2026 at 4:35 PM, Frustration said:

I'd still take Elantrians, the few resource problems are more than made up for by instantly winning.

[Frustration]

46 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

I see. Still matches up with normal scientific progress, not hyper-accelerated. They're probably still discovering new modifiers.

Perhaps, but that's what took them so long. They can progress in AonDor as fast as we did in programming from here.

47 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Yielded.

Why thank you.

47 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

That is it. It was a reason given for why, specifically, they can't just increase their numbers in the context of conquering the world. We kind of left if behind.

Not really. A limit of tens or hundreds of thousands is still a limit.

As for conquering the world even in that WoB the geographical limitations were placed first.

 

Your quotes on insta-wins are from another thread, with a completely different set of conditions to this one.

[The White Drake]

31 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Perhaps, but that's what took them so long. They can progress in AonDor as fast as we did in programming from here.

Assuming they know everything about it. All the Aons, all the modifiers.

 

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning.

The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula.

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered."

There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet.

 

They're still in the process of discovering things about AonDor. Imagine trying to advance in programming using a coding language you don't fully understand.

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Not really. A limit of tens or hundreds of thousands is still a limit.

As for conquering the world even in that WoB the geographical limitations were placed first.

Not sure where you got the 'ten or hundreds of thousands from'. It's given as an answer to a direct question about why they can't just raise their numbers, which means whatever the limit is, they're near it already. Even if not, why would your handful of Elantrians get to add a thousand more when evidently nobody else does? I think the other Elantrians would object.

Yes, the distance from Elantris is placed first, but this is still included in that question about conquering the world. It may be behind the distance problem in importance, but that doesn't remove that it is talked about in the context of world conquest as a limitation.

36 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Your quotes on insta-wins are from another thread, with a completely different set of conditions to this one.

Have your views altered between then and now? I can only assume your arguments for hyperadvancement are to make actionable the things you have previously talked about Elantrians doing with AonDor in military situations.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Assuming they know everything about it. All the Aons, all the modifiers.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Brandon Sanderson

Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning.

The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula.

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered."

There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet.

 

They're still in the process of discovering things about AonDor. Imagine trying to advance in programming using a coding language you don't fully understand.

Most people don't fully understand the coding languages they use. Fortunately they don't need to.

Just as I can communicate effectively in two languages IRL, despite not knowing every word in either, Elantrians are more than capable of doing things no one else could dream of without knowing every Aon.

Indeed not knowing ever Aon was no limit to the IRE in their attempt to steal Preservation.

11 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Not sure where you got the 'ten or hundreds of thousands from'. It's given as an answer to a direct question about why they can't just raise their numbers, which means whatever the limit is, they're near it already.

I already pointed out how in Elantris itself it says that the city could hold a population of tens of thousands and that most of the population were Elantrians.

12 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Even if not, why would your handful of Elantrians get to add a thousand more when evidently nobody else does? I think the other Elantrians would object.

No one else does?

Just because none of the characters spoke about it doesn't mean it never happened.

13 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Have your views altered between then and now? I can only assume your arguments for hyperadvancement are to make actionable the things you have previously talked about Elantrians doing with AonDor in military situations.

My views are unchanged, the situations presented in the threads are different.

[The White Drake]

37 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Most people don't fully understand the coding languages they use. Fortunately they don't need to.

Just as I can communicate effectively in two languages IRL, despite not knowing every word in either, Elantrians are more than capable of doing things no one else could dream of without knowing every Aon.

Indeed not knowing ever Aon was no limit to the IRE in their attempt to steal Preservation.

Not knowing every Aon means they for certain don't know a ton of modifiers. Sure they do pretty impressive things, but that doesn't mean they've hit the tipping point where they'll rapidly advance to the likes of immortality stacks such as you've described. It seems a stretch to assume they just happen to have reached that at the same time as the book when they didn't for hundreds of years before. (Secret History, btw, is set an unknown large period of time after the book, so if we're discussing Elantris timeframe, the Shardic Connection device doesn't apply)

38 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I already pointed out how in Elantris itself it says that the city could hold a population of tens of thousands and that most of the population were Elantrians.

Still waiting on that source- I've seen others claim a population of hundreds. But that just means there's a bunch of people already filling up the limit.

42 minutes ago, Frustration said:

No one else does?

Just because none of the characters spoke about it doesn't mean it never happened.

If everybody was allowed, they'd do so and fill up that limit, making it incompatible with there being enough open slots. You're proposing about 0.02% of the population chooses 10% of it (using 10,000 as a rough number), but there's no reason why that should be your 0.02%.

46 minutes ago, Frustration said:

My views are unchanged, the situations presented in the threads are different.

They're very similar. Build the best Invested army.