The Herald’s True deaths don’t make sense.

[Ascended Grubberfly He/Him]

The way Jezrian died and the way Kelek presumed would kill him and finally send him the Beyond was by being captured in a gemstone using a Raysium knife, and that cut off their Connection to Honor that sustained them.

WHY DOES THAT WORK? When Chana was put in an aluminum vault after she died she didn’t pass to the Beyond she just went back to Braize. Why are these two things different?

Edited yesterday at 03:09 PM by Ascended Grubberfly
Forgot WaT details about Kelek

[Returned he/him]

As I recall, aluminum blocks Investiture but doesn't sever connections: an allomancer inside of an aluminum cell can still burn metals, they just can't project the effect of that burning through the aluminum. The aluminum surfaces don't block the connection to Preservation which makes Allomancy possible. This should be like what happened to Chana, as the aluminum doesn't sever the connection to Honor/the Oathpact.

The Raysium knife is different, actively draining the Investiture into the gemstone (as cognitive shadows, this Investiture is most of what the Heralds are) and apparently severing the connections to the Oathpact which sustained them. Had the cognitive shadow stayed contained in the gemstones they might have been imprisoned indefinitely, like a spren, but that didn't happen for them. Instead the connection which allowed the Heralds to persist after death was gone (or cognitive shadows don't behave like spren in this way), so death was permanent and the gemstone did not contain them. The key difference seems to be the action of the Raysium.

Edited 22 hours ago by Returned

[Nitpicking]

2 hours ago, Returned said:

As I recall, aluminum blocks Investiture but doesn't sever connections: an allomancer inside of an aluminum cell can still burn metals, they just can't project the effect of that burning through the aluminum. The aluminum surfaces don't block the connection to Preservation which makes Allomancy possible. This should be like what happened to Chana, as the aluminum doesn't sever the connection to Honor/the Oathpact.

On the other hand, the aluminum throne room did block the Connection between Maya and Adolin. Not sever it, but prevent them from using it.

[Ascended Grubberfly He/Him]

1 hour ago, Nitpicking said:

On the other hand, the aluminum throne room did block the Connection between Maya and Adolin. Not sever it, but prevent them from using it.

And aluminum boxes are used in transporting Invested cargo. I think that's mentioned in WaT or something but I'm pretty sure that's how Gavilar was doing his stuff.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, Ascended Grubberfly said:

The way Jezrian died and the way Kelek presumed would kill him and finally send him the Beyond was by being captured in a gemstone using a Raysium knife, and that cut off their Connection to Honor that sustained them.

WHY DOES THAT WORK? When Chana was put in an aluminum vault after she died she didn’t pass to the Beyond she just went back to Braize. Why are these two things different?

Chana was never put in an aluminum vault. When Shallan stabbed her she immediately went back to Braize.

The light was Shallan's own delusion

[The White Drake]

9 hours ago, Ascended Grubberfly said:

When Chana was put in an aluminum vault after she died she didn’t pass to the Beyond she just went back to Braize. Why are these two things different?

Are you referring to the vault 'mother's soul' (AKA Testament) was put in? I don't believe that one was aluminum.

1 hour ago, Ascended Grubberfly said:

And aluminum boxes are used in transporting Invested cargo. I think that's mentioned in WaT or something but I'm pretty sure that's how Gavilar was doing his stuff.

They state it allows for travel, but not as far as they would like, so it's not perfect.

[Ascended Grubberfly He/Him]

8 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Are you referring to the vault 'mother's soul' (AKA Testament) was put in? I don't believe that one was aluminum.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Chana was never put in an aluminum vault. When Shallan stabbed her she immediately went back to Braize.

The light was Shallan's own delusion

9 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

They state it allows for travel, but not as far as they would like, so it's not perfect.

Clearly there are some issues with Shallan's POV or my POV.

The story changed so many times that I can't remember what did.

So why do gemstones kill Heralds but BAM was fine for 4000 years?

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

26 minutes ago, Ascended Grubberfly said:

So why do gemstones kill Heralds but BAM was fine for 4000 years?

Spoiler

My guess is that something about Jezrien's immortality and/or the Oathpact required him to go back to Braize. Either that or he needed a Physical body and if left as simple Investiture, he dissipated.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

1 hour ago, Ascended Grubberfly said:

Clearly there are some issues with Shallan's POV or my POV.

The story changed so many times that I can't remember what did.

Welcome to trying to process trauma. Every time you take the memory out of the horrible dark box you shoved it in so as to avoid thinking about it, something different comes out!

[Returned he/him]

3 hours ago, Ascended Grubberfly said:

So why do gemstones kill Heralds but BAM was fine for 4000 years?

Ba-Ado-Mishram is a spren and the Heralds are not. Other differences may exist, too, but that one seems relevant (given what we know so far). I don't think that the gem killed Jezrien so much as it failed to contain his cognitive shadow which, without the Oathpact preserving its existence, faded to the beyond. The Raysium knife is what killed him and the gem was irrelevant to the process. BAM is her own self-sustaining thing and is not generally at risk of slipping into the beyond.

Edited 14 hours ago by Returned