The best Invested unit

[The White Drake]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

1. Your making a big deal out of the IRE from 300 years ago. Just because that's what they had to do then doesn't mean that's what has to happen now.

Unless you can find some evidence otherwise...

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

2. Just having investiture doesn't explain it actually, as otherwise Marasi had no reason to draw the Elendel Basin, or Riina to draw Lunar. Likewise it also leaves unexplained how Marasi's glow "stabilized, and then brightened" (TLM chapter 54). She shouldn't brighten if she only had access to the same level of power.

I think you mean Shai, not Marasi. And Aons are drawn based on geography, so it makes perfect sense they would have to do that. For the 'stabilized, then brightened', I'd assume that's the Soulstamp getting a grip. You're pushing a very specific idea on a thin basis here.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

3. The key word in that WoB is "currently."

I noted that already. I checked the date and cross-referenced it with publication dates before posting. It is an Era 2 WoB (though not post Lost Metal). This would mean you're assuming they overcame something 'integral to the workings of Cosmere magic' in a period of five years based off the fluctuation in light level of an artificial Elantrian's skin.

I'm afraid WoB and book beat theory. It was a nice theory, but directly contradicted by both. They can't draw Dor directly from offworld.

Edited July 5 by The White Drake

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Unless you can find some evidence otherwise...

I've listed it.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I think you mean Shai, not Marasi. 

Yeah, lol.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

And Aons are drawn based on geography, so it makes perfect sense they would have to do that. 

Arelon's geography. There is no large concentration of Dor on Scadrial or Lunar to tune to the geography of those planets, and thus no reason for an Elantrian to draw them.

Indeed as we can see when they draw other aons, they use the standard shape based on Arelon.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

For the 'stabilized, then brightened', I'd assume that's the Soulstamp getting a grip. You're pushing a very specific idea on a thin basis here.

The glow stabilized and the brightened specifically after she drew the basin, which as an Aon did nothing else.

And besides that doesn't fit with what we know of soulstamps.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I noted that already. I checked the date and cross-referenced it with publication dates before posting. It is an Era 2 WoB (though not post Lost Metal). This would mean you're assuming they overcame something 'integral to the workings of Cosmere magic' in a period of five years based off the fluctuation in light level of an artificial Elantrian's skin.

I'm afraid WoB and book beat theory. It was a nice theory, but directly contradicted by both. They can't draw Dor directly from offworld.

It's not contradicted by either.

[The White Drake]

On 7/5/2026 at 3:45 PM, Frustration said:

I've listed it.

No, you've provided theories. Theories alone lose out to what we see in a book, 300 years back or no.

On 7/5/2026 at 3:45 PM, Frustration said:

Arelon's geography. There is no large concentration of Dor on Scadrial or Lunar to tune to the geography of those planets, and thus no reason for an Elantrian to draw them.

Indeed as we can see when they draw other aons, they use the standard shape based on Arelon.

On 7/5/2026 at 3:45 PM, Frustration said:

The glow stabilized and the brightened specifically after she drew the basin, which as an Aon did nothing else.

And besides that doesn't fit with what we know of soulstamps.

This is still just speculation, including the assumption that the map Aon is drawn to tune to Investiture (it's more likely the 'hacking the system' Brandon has referred to that's necessary to get AonDor to work offworld at all). A geographical Aon and a light level fluctuation is not evidence of an inter-system Cognitive realm Investiture Connection.

On 7/5/2026 at 3:45 PM, Frustration said:

It's not contradicted by either.

What. I gave you a WoB asking directly if exactly what you were saying is possible, and the answer was no. I don't see how a contradiction can be any more clear.

'No, you cannot currently access the Dor anywhere else. The Dor is a big part of why magic on Sel is distinctive.'

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, The White Drake said:

No, you've provided theories. Theories alone lose out to what we see in a book, 300 years back or no.

Even assuming it was a theory it wouldn't lose out, because the basis of it is that development occurred during those 300 years.

Saying that 300 years ago it was impossible does not mean that it currently is.

12 hours ago, The White Drake said:

This is still just speculation, including the assumption that the map Aon is drawn to tune to Investiture (it's more likely the 'hacking the system' Brandon has referred to that's necessary to get AonDor to work offworld at all). A geographical Aon and a light level fluctuation is not evidence of an inter-system Cognitive realm Investiture Connection.

It is itself AonDor, and thus cannot function as you claim. And even if it was it wouldn't cause Shai's glow to brighten. The only thing we've seen do that is when the IRE drank some of the dor they piped over.

A connection to a larger source of the dor in some way is the only thing that explains what we saw in the text. The fact that you have to try so hard to come up with an alternative explanation should show us that this is the simplest answer.

12 hours ago, The White Drake said:

What. I gave you a WoB asking directly if exactly what you were saying is possible, and the answer was no. I don't see how a contradiction can be any more clear.

'No, you cannot currently access the Dor anywhere else. The Dor is a big part of why magic on Sel is distinctive.'

I already explained how it didn't contradict. Brandon said that it was not currently possible in 2015.

In 2021 we saw it happen.

That is a six year time gap for Brandon to change his mind, or simply to allow the Elantrians to develop new techniques.

Six years ago we would have said that it was not currently possible for a computer program to create an image good enough to fool a human into believing it. Quoting someone saying that would not prove AI to be fake.

We've seen it happen, AonDor was used to connect Shai to a larger source of Dor while off world. Saying that it was not possible six years ago does not prove otherwise.

[BinarySecond]

Didn't Shai use investiture that had been brought to Scadrial rather than tapping into the Dor directly?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BinarySecond said:

Didn't Shai use investiture that had been brought to Scadrial rather than tapping into the Dor directly?

Only for the soulstamp, she used it all just for the transformation.

[The White Drake]

2 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Didn't Shai use investiture that had been brought to Scadrial rather than tapping into the Dor directly?

Yes. Frustration has yet to back up his claims otherwise.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Only for the soulstamp, she used it all just for the transformation.

Evidence? She didn't even dip her stamp in it.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

A connection to a larger source of the dor in some way is the only thing that explains what we saw in the text. The fact that you have to try so hard to come up with an alternative explanation should show us that this is the simplest answer.

I've given you multiple possible explanations. You're bending over backwards in an attempt to stick specifically to yours in the face of multiple pieces of evidence otherwise.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Even assuming it was a theory it wouldn't lose out, because the basis of it is that development occurred during those 300 years.

Saying that 300 years ago it was impossible does not mean that it currently is.

It is itself AonDor, and thus cannot function as you claim. And even if it was it wouldn't cause Shai's glow to brighten. The only thing we've seen do that is when the IRE drank some of the dor they piped over.

A connection to a larger source of the dor in some way is the only thing that explains what we saw in the text. The fact that you have to try so hard to come up with an alternative explanation should show us that this is the simplest answer.

I already explained how it didn't contradict. Brandon said that it was not currently possible in 2015.

In 2021 we saw it happen.

That is a six year time gap for Brandon to change his mind, or simply to allow the Elantrians to develop new techniques.

Six years ago we would have said that it was not currently possible for a computer program to create an image good enough to fool a human into believing it. Quoting someone saying that would not prove AI to be fake.

We've seen it happen, AonDor was used to connect Shai to a larger source of Dor while off world. Saying that it was not possible six years ago does not prove otherwise.

What....

Let me hammer out the facts.

1. Shai stamped herself

2. She absorbed the jar of Dor as she transformed

3. Her glow wavered

4. She drew a Aon of the Basin, and her glow stabilized.

Those are the facts. To say this means she connected to the Dor on Sel is pure theorycrafting. We are shown 300 years ago and told 5 years ago this isn't a thing. To overcome those statements- to prove your theory even without them- you need evidence. Thus far you've just been repeating your theory and claiming it as fact. So I will ask you again. Can you provide any basis beyond mere speculation that Shai established an inter-system Investiture-drawing Connection to Sel's Cognitive Realm?

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I've given you multiple possible explanations. You're bending over backwards in an attempt to stick specifically to yours in the face of multiple pieces of evidence otherwise.

And none of them are even possible let alone explain what happened. Soulstamps don't need AonDor to connect to people, and a hack to allow AonDor to be used off world wouldn't cause her glow to return.

The only thing that we have seen cause an Elantrian's glow to return was consuming dor. None of your explanations have satisfied that.

The simplest answer is often true, occum's razor dictates that somehow a connection to the Dor or some other source of investiture capable of powering AonDor was made.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Evidence? She didn't even dip her stamp in it.

The entire jar was used up on the transformation and her glow instantly started to fade. As we saw in SH if Elantrians have extra investiture they will continue to glow.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Those are the facts. To say this means she connected to the Dor on Sel is pure theorycrafting. We are shown 300 years ago and told 5 years ago this isn't a thing. To overcome those statements- to prove your theory even without them- you need evidence. Thus far you've just been repeating your theory and claiming it as fact. So I will ask you again. Can you provide any basis beyond mere speculation that Shai established an inter-system Investiture-drawing Connection to Sel's Cognitive Realm?

First off maybe take a step back for a second, you're getting rather heated.

Secondly it isn't speculation, as it is the only explanation for what we saw. Nothing else even comes close. Additional proof is not needed the scene is itself the proof.

Any attempt would have to resolve three problems:

1. Why Shai was so prepared for that specific Aon, as seen by her removing the map for it before the transformation.

2. Why Shai preprogrammed drawing that Aon into the soulstamp, as seen by her not remembering having drawn it.

3. Why her glow not only stabilized but increased afterwards, which so far only an increase in investiture has managed to do.

Only one explanation manages to reconcile them all.

[Mystic He/Him]

Gonna pop in and add something else that doesn’t seem to have been brought up. (I don’t have my books on my right now so I’ll edit in specific chapters later)

In Emperor’s soul, Shai says that her soul stamps for herself will only last 24 hours.

TLM

Spoiler

When Marasi goes to refuse being a Ghostblood, the offer Kelsier gives her is to track down moonlight and get her back.

I don’t remember the exact words but it was something about how he had lost his best operative and something needed to be done in order to get her back

That is not at all consistent with what we know of Soulstamps. Even assuming Shai would’ve made a better soul stamp than she has before, she wouldv’e been back to herself in less than 48 hours.

The only explanation for why this particular soul stamp seems to be never failing was if there’s an outside source of investiture continually providing it so that the transformation takes place. That requires a connection to Sel and the Dor, otherwise it would just be a matter of waiting till the investiture ran out.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And none of them are even possible let alone explain what happened. Soulstamps don't need AonDor to connect to people, and a hack to allow AonDor to be used off world wouldn't cause her glow to return.

The only thing that we have seen cause an Elantrian's glow to return was consuming dor. None of your explanations have satisfied that.

The simplest answer is often true, occum's razor dictates that somehow a connection to the Dor or some other source of investiture capable of powering AonDor was made.

The entire jar was used up on the transformation and her glow instantly started to fade. As we saw in SH if Elantrians have extra investiture they will continue to glow.

First off maybe take a step back for a second, you're getting rather heated.

Secondly it isn't speculation, as it is the only explanation for what we saw. Nothing else even comes close. Additional proof is not needed the scene is itself the proof.

Any attempt would have to resolve three problems:

1. Why Shai was so prepared for that specific Aon, as seen by her removing the map for it before the transformation.

2. Why Shai preprogrammed drawing that Aon into the soulstamp, as seen by her not remembering having drawn it.

3. Why her glow not only stabilized but increased afterwards, which so far only an increase in investiture has managed to do.

Only one explanation manages to reconcile them all.

I could quibble on some of this (notably, the 'hacking' explanation covers all three points you bring up), but you seem to miss my point.

This is THEORY.

I am asking for PROOF.

An explanation- no matter how solid you believe it to be- is not proof. Feel free to theorize, but do not claim definitive proof without it.

59 minutes ago, Mystic said:

Gonna pop in and add something else that doesn’t seem to have been brought up. (I don’t have my books on my right now so I’ll edit in specific chapters later)

In Emperor’s soul, Shai says that her soul stamps for herself will only last 24 hours.

TLM

  Reveal hidden contents

When Marasi goes to refuse being a Ghostblood, the offer Kelsier gives her is to track down moonlight and get her back.

I don’t remember the exact words but it was something about how he had lost his best operative and something needed to be done in order to get her back

That is not at all consistent with what we know of Soulstamps. Even assuming Shai would’ve made a better soul stamp than she has before, she wouldv’e been back to herself in less than 48 hours.

The only explanation for why this particular soul stamp seems to be never failing was if there’s an outside source of investiture continually providing it so that the transformation takes place. That requires a connection to Sel and the Dor, otherwise it would just be a matter of waiting till the investiture ran out.

Got an answer for you.

Love-that-dog

Why won't Moonlight's stamp wear off by itself?

Brandon Sanderson

This is an excellent question. The answer is—it might someday. But the other question is—it's been a spell. Depending on where I time these things, it's either been hundreds of years or decades since... Moonlight has had a lot of time to practice with powers and investigate what's possible in the Cosmere with magic and talk to some of the smartest people in the Cosmere about how it works. You should draw from the way the soulstamps work, the more mundane ones, that Shai has made a ton of progress in pushing forward the art of Forgery.

[Mystic He/Him]

13 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

I could quibble on some of this (notably, the 'hacking' explanation covers all three points you bring up), but you seem to miss my point.

This is THEORY.

I am asking for PROOF.

An explanation- no matter how solid you believe it to be- is not proof. Feel free to theorize, but do not claim definitive proof without it.

Got an answer for you.

Love-that-dog

Why won't Moonlight's stamp wear off by itself?

Brandon Sanderson

This is an excellent question. The answer is—it might someday. But the other question is—it's been a spell. Depending on where I time these things, it's either been hundreds of years or decades since... Moonlight has had a lot of time to practice with powers and investigate what's possible in the Cosmere with magic and talk to some of the smartest people in the Cosmere about how it works. You should draw from the way the soulstamps work, the more mundane ones, that Shai has made a ton of progress in pushing forward the art of Forgery.

Okay, what I understand that to mean is that Moonlight has a better understanding of soulstamps and somehow that knowledge allows her to make a near-infinite lasting soulstamps.

We’re not told what that info is though, so I don’t think it confirms or denies the theory. 

I think that there is still the original problem Shai brought up that people change over time, which makes the soul stamp less effective over time. I’m honestly not sure how that even could be prevented. How would you prevent someone from changing over time?

Brandon said that there is the possibility that she might change back. But that could be referring either to fact that they grow less effective(not my opinion as he says “might” but could be it) or, if we take the theory to be true, that something could interfere with the connection. 

I don’t think that it goes either way though. I can see both being possible. I should find the exact quotes for earlier though, it might help 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I could quibble on some of this (notably, the 'hacking' explanation covers all three points you bring up), but you seem to miss my point.

This is THEORY.

I am asking for PROOF.

An explanation- no matter how solid you believe it to be- is not proof. Feel free to theorize, but do not claim definitive proof without it.

The scene is the proof.

Just as I do not need to prove that soulstamps can make someone an Elantrian outside of that scene, I likewise do not need to prove that Elantrians can connect themselves to some form of investiture to power themselves. That was already demonstrated.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I could quibble on some of this (notably, the 'hacking' explanation covers all three points you bring up),

It explains the first two, but not the third, as no additional investiture would have come from that.

Likewise that explanation is impossible as it was itself an Aon that was used. Any hack needed to make AonDor work cannot rely on AonDor already working in order to function.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It explains the first two, but not the third, as no additional investiture would have come from that.

Likewise that explanation is impossible as it was itself an Aon that was used. Any hack needed to make AonDor work cannot rely on AonDor already working in order to function.

You assume solely an Investiture infusion can brighten an Elantrian, as opposed to, say, a disconnect with the local geography due to the highly locational nature of their powers.

That second point falls apart, as it was not one of Arelon's Aons. I have a theory that it works like a translator, to get Aons working away from their geographic locale by managing between them and the new terrain, but that seems a topic for it's own topic.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The scene is the proof.

Just as I do not need to prove that soulstamps can make someone an Elantrian outside of that scene, I likewise do not need to prove that Elantrians can connect themselves to some form of investiture to power themselves. That was already demonstrated.

For the last time... no such thing is demonstrated. You merely theorize from observing. Proof is if you can find something- in the text, in a WoB, anywhere- that says 'yes, that was what was happening'.

And I am afraid there can be no proof, because...

Jofwu

Why did Shay-I have to draw a map of the Elendel basin, if the jar of Dor was her source of Investiture? Did the map connect her to another source of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

No, the map didn't, but her magic is still wonky. Selish magic has some wonkiness to it and it needs to be tricked.

 

This really derailed the topic and took a while, but we have a definite, absolute answer. Sanderson gave it a mere 17 days after The Lost Metal was released.

[SpiritOfWrath he/him]

Say that we didn’t have a way to move Elantrians.

 

HOWEVER

What if we moved the Dor?

The entirety of Elantrian power is immense. I propose we create a Death Star like structure that could navigate through space and carries many, many Elantrians.

Sure it would require a lot of time to figure out, but we have the power of TWO SHARDS.

 

The biggest problem, then, is the Dor. It prolly weighs a whole ton.

But perhaps not. Because the actual Shard is not the body of investiture—it’s Connected to it. Right? Referring to how Shards are limited in the amount of Investiture they can exert at once.

 

But the Shards are infused in the Cognitive space of Sel, yk? So—after the Elantrians wipe out all resistance on the planet, they create an air-tight temperature controlled environment bit by bit around the entire planet. This would take a good amount of time, but I think it’s possible. Each Elantrian would secure ~45000 square miles. If they took 10 square miles a day each, it would take a decade or so to prepare Sel for space travel. Propulsion would be simple once the Aons were figured out—though they could make it more and more complicated depending on what they need and how much time they are willing to dedicate. They would probably need the bulk of their forces to do so, but it’s a worthy sacrifice, I think.

 

That is the best thing to do.

[Frustration]

20 hours ago, The White Drake said:

You assume solely an Investiture infusion can brighten an Elantrian, as opposed to, say, a disconnect with the local geography due to the highly locational nature of their powers.

That second point falls apart, as it was not one of Arelon's Aons. I have a theory that it works like a translator, to get Aons working away from their geographic locale by managing between them and the new terrain, but that seems a topic for it's own topic.

For the last time... no such thing is demonstrated. You merely theorize from observing. Proof is if you can find something- in the text, in a WoB, anywhere- that says 'yes, that was what was happening'.

And I am afraid there can be no proof, because...

Jofwu

Why did Shay-I have to draw a map of the Elendel basin, if the jar of Dor was her source of Investiture? Did the map connect her to another source of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

No, the map didn't, but her magic is still wonky. Selish magic has some wonkiness to it and it needs to be tricked.

 

This really derailed the topic and took a while, but we have a definite, absolute answer. Sanderson gave it a mere 17 days after The Lost Metal was released.

Huh, that's interesting.

That still doesn't explain to me why she glowed more, but I guess I'll have to accept that.

I'd still take Elantrians, the few resource problems are more than made up for by instantly winning.

[The White Drake]

So it would be less of a battlefield contest, and more of a logistics struggle, gathering sufficient amounts of Dor to win your fights. But if you don't have enough Dor to power your insta-win units, you lose easily. Using Aons alone to wreck entire armies seems like it would strain Investiture reserves. I bet there's something we can slap on to reduce that strain. Breaths are reusable and easy to get your hands on; Awakened objects could fill some needed roles, and raising fallen enemies as Lifeless can provide infantry. That way even if you're low on Dor, you can still put up a fight.

[Frustration]

15 hours ago, The White Drake said:

So it would be less of a battlefield contest, and more of a logistics struggle, gathering sufficient amounts of Dor to win your fights. But if you don't have enough Dor to power your insta-win units, you lose easily. Using Aons alone to wreck entire armies seems like it would strain Investiture reserves. I bet there's something we can slap on to reduce that strain. Breaths are reusable and easy to get your hands on; Awakened objects could fill some needed roles, and raising fallen enemies as Lifeless can provide infantry. That way even if you're low on Dor, you can still put up a fight.

IRE equipment is the backbone for the Spren's economy. They have the capacityto store ludicrous amounts of investiture, and it's not like dor is hard to come by.

[The White Drake]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

IRE equipment is the backbone for the Spren's economy. They have the capacityto store ludicrous amounts of investiture, and it's not like dor is hard to come by.

It's not vital to the Spren. I recall a statement deriding this 'outsider technology'. I'm certain it can store plenty though.

More to the point, purified Dor is considered to be quite valuable by the Ghostbloods, one of only two times we've ever seen it. Remember, in it's natural state the Dor is plasma-form Investiture I really, really doubt you want to touch, and what we see being used is a liquid specifically referred to as 'purified'. It seems to require a refinement process to be made usable.

On Sel itself, it can be shaped and limited by it's exit from the Cognitive, like a valve, but to transport and absorb safely elsewhere...

Edited Thursday at 03:30 PM by The White Drake

[Frustration]

59 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

More to the point, purified Dor is considered to be quite valuable by the Ghostbloods, one of only two times we've ever seen it. Remember, in it's natural state the Dor is plasma-form Investiture I really, really doubt you want to touch, and what we see being used is a liquid specifically referred to as 'purified'. It seems to require a refinement process to be made usable.

On Sel itself, it can be shaped and limited by it's exit from the Cognitive, like a valve, but to transport and absorb safely elsewhere...

The dor only needs to be stripped of Intent for someone without a Connection to it to be able to use it. An Elantrian would be just fine without it, but an allomancer would not be able to use it.

[The White Drake]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

The dor only needs to be stripped of Intent for someone without a Connection to it to be able to use it. An Elantrian would be just fine without it, but an allomancer would not be able to use it.

If the only reason it was purified is that. The plasmic Investiture that makes traversing Sel's Cognitive so dangerous is certainly not what the Ire were drinking.

Brightlord Maelstrom

Quesion about Selish magic systems. So, you've described, in the past, the Dor in the Cognitive Realm as being almost like magma. Is that just in consistency, or also does that also include in its temperature?

Brandon Sanderson

No, it's more temperature than consistency. Plasma-ish is maybe even a better way of putting it.

 

In it's base state, the Dor is very, very dangerous. We ultimately have little idea how hard it would really be to make transportable.

The Ire, however, use a giant power cord, rather than carry tons of Dor, and Brandon has stated that if they were to try and make a big project like Elantris away from Sel, such a power cord would be the only way they know of that could do it. So if you want huge levels of Investiture from the Dor, you'll need either an unknown method that, being unknown, isn't really relevant to this conversation, or a supply chain infrastructure. That's a limitation that takes away the 'instawin everything' Elantrians might normally pull, and make campaigns against them rather interesting, fought in an entirely different way focused around denial and access to Investiture.

Edited Thursday at 08:22 PM by The White Drake

[Trusk'our he/him]

The true strongest army should be Elantrians. Even if they can't take automatically accessable fuel with them off Sel, they could create an Aonic equation (saved in shorthand for ease of replication) that can permanently Invest a mundane soldier into a super powerful troop. Create hundreds of thousands of super-speed, super-strength, Investiture-sensing, super-intelligent, high-durability, regenerating, hungerless/tireless, flying/Gravitation using soldiers, then send them out to overwhelm any opposing armies. Give them guns too.

If enemy armies attack their base on Sel, they harness the power of prep time and create tremendous Aons that obliterate any trespassers.

If your armies begin facing a threat that cannot be overwhelmed through traditional means (Soulcast bunker, force field, undying cognitive anomaly, invincible Awakened construct, etc), keep a small force of Elantrians in the field who can come up with more versatile Aons on the front. Keep large amounts of purified Dor in those storage devices the Ire sell to keep them well stocked (perhaps giving some Investiture to troops with uniquely active powers too).

Though Aons can certainly be rigged to do so, use Seons for organized FTL communication between army leaders for greater efficiency, even between worlds. 

 

I think Radiants are going to be the second best troop for an army.

They can regenerate, and Surgebinding as a whole is very versatile (Soulcasting can provide food or other raw resources, Cohesion, Division, and Soulcasting can create fortifications and remove enemy fortifications, Gravitation can provide air support and greatly increase logistical options, etc). Shardblades and Shardplate, while not available to every Radiant, are very potent and can remain intimidating against even advanced technology (obviously less powerful against high-caliber guns and artillery, but they can be mixed in with such technology as the Surgebinding army advances rather than trying to replace it). The ability to create Squires is also very important, as a Radiant can stretch their power far more than most Invested individuals. Replacing Radiants is typically not hard either, as long as the Spren remain intact. 

The only weakness such an army might have is that their Bondsmiths may not be able to follow them to different worlds immediately (at least two of their Spren are physically stuck there, and distance seems to matter at least somewhat for the Sibling's bond, so it's not unreasonable to assume the other two suffer from this as well) until they learn to stretch Connection more. So gemstone runs through Shadesmar and Oathgates will probably be necessary for their full range of powers, at least until they master Connection (I will also assume Rosharan Investiture can be brought off world in this scenario as well).

You might even be able to form new Spren for the purpose of creating more Radiants- though we don't know how hard that would be and it if I remember correctly it takes centuries for them to mature. 

 

Despite not being quite as individuay potent, I think a few other army compositions would be up there:

A Threnodite/Shade army could be quite powerful. Shades appear to require no special circumstances to create other than the death of a Threnodite, so your soldiers could come back from the grave to leech the life from your enemies. Shades need no rations, no rest, physical barriers cannot stop them (except silver, aluminum, and presumably highly-Invested materials), most traditional weapons are useless to harm them, and injuries they cause are impossible to heal without a ready supply of silver or Investiture based healing. 

They can lose control of themselves in bloodlust much like Koloss, and I'm guessing the continuity chains are what let Threnodites keep them under their control, but I think you could turn them into a powerful and numerous force.

Unfortunately, they can only come from a specific people, and Shades don't have any apparent external powers. Just the touch of death and incoporality. This means an opposing army with the right equipment could actually mess them up since they need to get within touching distance and silver polearms and bullets are an effective counter (though maybe they could hide in the ground like the Deepest Ones?)

 

I actually think you could turn Charred into one of the most powerful armies as well.

You could sacrifice tens of thousands of Canticlites to their sun (possibly import more people to be adopted as Canticlites), then take the Sunhearts and create Sunlit Charred from loyal human soldiers without the same mental weaknesses that the Cinder King's army had (if it cannot be done automatically with a raw Sunheart, just do what Rebek and her sister did at the end of TSM with Cinderhearts).

They have superhuman strength, speed, and regeneration (though the last one likely requires an active expenditure of their Investiture). Basically a Thug/Bloodmaker Twinborn. Obviously can and should be equipped with modern weaponry.

Like Shades they'd lack external powers, and they wouldn't have the touch of death and incoporality. However, being able to equip them with weapons and tools as you advance may make them more reliable and versatile. Not to mention that the sheer quantity of Charred could be overwhelming even to very powerful Invested- hard to fight twenty coordinated Bloodmaker/Thugs at once as a single person, no?

If regeneration is used a lot, bring extra, disposable Sunhearts to renew Charred. Maybe use traditional corrupt Cinderhearts to control broken Charred for meat-grinder tactics (which can be made from the enemy population, like Koloss).

Unfortunately, to get Charred- especially in large numbers- you'd need to find a way to access Canticle from the CR (as this is set about Era 2), which is also dangerous. Something you could set up with effort though, and would prove extremely useful afterwards. 

Edited Saturday at 12:29 PM by Trusk'our

[The White Drake]

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

they could create an Aonic equation (saved in shorthand for ease of replication) that can permanently Invest a mundane soldier into a super powerful troop

...Aons require a constant source of Investiture. Fundemental Realmatic laws say if you want an Invested being, it needs enough Investiture to operate. It can't have superstrength forever from a single charge, as that violates the laws of physics. You'd be creating energy out of nothing.

Regals have Voidlight. Dragons draw directly from the Spiritual Realm. Charred have cinder hearts Invested enough to last the lifespan. The only ways to manage what you propose would be to use AonDor to rewrite the being's biology into something like Lift, able to eat to fuel it's Invested capabilities, which is far beyond current AonDor science, make them power themselves from the Spiritual, also beyond current capabilities, or just be so Invested they hold enough to go out into the field, complete their mission, then come back and recharge. Which runs into the same problem of producing enough mobile Investiture you get with pure Elantrian.

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

(I will also assume Rosharan Investiture can be brought off world in this scenario as well).

As of Wind and Truth, that is the case.

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

A Threnodite/Shade army could be quite powerful. Shades appear to require no special circumstances to create other than the death of a Threnodite, so your soldiers could come back from the grave to leech the life from your enemies. Shades need no rations, no rest, physical barriers cannot stop them (except silver, aluminum, and presumably highly-Invested materials), most traditional weapons are useless to harm them, and injuries they cause are impossible to heal without a ready supply of silver or Investiture based healing. 

They can lose control of themselves in bloodlust much like Koloss, and I'm guessing the continuity chains are what let Threnodites keep them under their control, but I think you could turn them into a powerful and numerous force.

Unfortunately, they can only come from a specific people, and Shades don't have any apparent external powers. Just the touch of death and incoporality. This means an opposing army with the right equipment could actually mess them up since they need to get within touching distance and silver polearms and bullets are an effective counter (though maybe they could hide in the ground like the Deepest Ones?)

This is a really good point. Find a way of controlling them, and shades would be incredible. Very easy to mass-produce and can only be combated by Invested entities or a rare metal that gets expended in doing so. Isles of the Emberdark also shows us they are capable of going underground as you theorize. I was thinking Lifeless might be up there for the numbers you can get, but this tops them.

13 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

They have superhuman strength, speed, and regeneration (though the last one likely requires an active expenditure of their Investiture). Basically a Thug/Bloodmaker Twinborn. Obviously can and should be equipped with modern weaponry.

I don't recall seeing regeneration. When did they showcase this?

[Trusk'our he/him]

43 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

I don't recall seeing regeneration. When did they showcase this?

It's been a bit since I last had the book on me, but I believe that Nomad comments that they regenerate from their injuries as he fights them.

44 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

...Aons require a constant source of Investiture. Fundemental Realmatic laws say if you want an Invested being, it needs enough Investiture to operate. It can't have superstrength forever from a single charge, as that violates the laws of physics. You'd be creating energy out of nothing.

Regals have Voidlight. Dragons draw directly from the Spiritual Realm. Charred have cinder hearts Invested enough to last the lifespan. The only ways to manage what you propose would be to use AonDor to rewrite the being's biology into something like Lift, able to eat to fuel it's Invested capabilities, which is far beyond current AonDor science, make them power themselves from the Spiritual, also beyond current capabilities, or just be so Invested they hold enough to go out into the field, complete their mission, then come back and recharge. Which runs into the same problem of producing enough mobile Investiture you get with pure Elantrian.

My main thought process on this was with Riina using her AonDor to overwrite people's biology with curses, which seemed very similar to the Nightwatcher's Boons & Banes. Those changes can last years at minimum (assuming I'm remembering TotES well enough and she'd been there for some time cursing people), but I suspect they're more like Hemalurgy and can last indefinatley without needing to expend Investiture.

We've seen many instances of Investiture that can produce potent effects without being expended- the Heightenings, Hemalurgic spikes, and even Fused have certain abilities that their Voidlight provides without needing to actively expend it. This is likely because static Investiture acts as a conduit to the SR and continuously pulls energy into the physical world.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/472-jordancon-2021/#e14918

Argent

I've been trying to figure out how the Fused and the Regals get their Voidlight. Heavenly Ones seem to be able to levitate indefinitely unless they heal, which presumably expends their Light. But then the Pursuer needs to go get spheres. And then there's the Song of Prayer, which I don't understand at all.

Brandon Sanderson

All of the Fused have an active and an inactive way to use their Voidlight. For some of them, one is way more dramatic than the other. So you should be watching for the different brands of Fused to each have that. If they don't use it actively, they get a passive effect. And if they do use it actively, it runs out. So watch for that with them.

They each only have one power, as opposed to Knights Radiant, but they have the staying power of consistency depending on what they are.

The Song of Prayer. Let's just say that Odium likes his Fused being reliant upon him. Does that make sense?

Argent

I think it does. My assumption has been that anyone can just sing the song and ask for Investiture.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, this is true, because most of the time he's not going to be paying direct attention, and it's just going to... yeah.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/76-shadows-of-self-chicago-signing/#e6389

Alteroden

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alteroden

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alteroden

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

What's more, AonDor is also capable of mimicking nearly any Invested process in the Cosmere, with only a few exceptions.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/551-youtube-spoiler-stream-7/#e17125

Questioner

Is there anything that absolutely cannot be done by Aons, but can be done by other magic systems?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes; Aons aren't good at replicating aether abilites. Aons are not good at replicating anything that requires negative Investiture. Aons are not good at anything that requires a willful choice and persistent bond. But they can mimic those effects.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/508-dragonsteel-2022/#e15860

Questioner

Could you use AonDor to manipulate Connection? If so, would a real AonDor smarty be able to do something similar to a Bondsmith?

Brandon Sanderson

The short answer to your question is: yes. Let me give some explanation.

Even when you are seeings some things happening in Elantris itself, you are seeing them manipulate Connection. It is mostly reinforcing Connection, but it is, in a way, manipulation. Rewriting Connection, rewriting Identity are both things that they can do. So with enough power, with enough smartiness, what a Bondsmith can do can be done.

In fact, we have seen short-range Elsecalling done by… Obviously Elsecalling’s not Bondsmithing, but you know that a Bondsmith powered a big Elsecalling [to migrate from Ashyn], one of the big things you’ve seen a Bondsmith do is get people between planets. And you have seen people use AonDor to Elsecall. You’ve seen them Lightweave, you’ve seen them do a lot of these things. They also could do some of this same stuff.

Basically, rule of thumb is: almost anything in the cosmere that is possible can be replicated with AonDor with the right program. But you may need an injection of Investiture in certain ways.

So it would probably take a group of Elantrians some time to figure out how to create a passive but powerful change to their soldiers, but this idea is what I'm basing their greatest strength upon.

For certain abilities, like regeneration, they may need to carry some extra Dor they can feed on occasionally.

 

I had an additional thought today after posting on how Elantrians could make an even more formidable army: the Ire have been shown to be capable of creating pipelines of Dor far away from Sel, all the way into the edges of other solar system's subastrals. They'd need to protect those pipes from opposing forces, but they could erect fortifications to shore up stockpiles of Investiture and dole it out to troops on their front lines. Even if lines were cut, they could potentially last a while on those stores, then send out forces to reclaim the space used for the pipe.

 

[The White Drake]

15 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

My main thought process on this was with Riina using her AonDor to overwrite people's biology with curses, which seemed very similar to the Nightwatcher's Boons & Banes. Those changes can last years at minimum (assuming I'm remembering TotES well enough and she'd been there for some time cursing people), but I suspect they're more like Hemalurgy and can last indefinatley without needing to expend Investiture.

Ah. I was thinking more Aonic tattoos that enhanced people (which Brandon has stated is possible). Still, she wasn't granting anyone Invested powers or incredible might. Rewriting biology to that degree- or even the degree she does- is something beyond current Aonic knowledge (and biological knowledge). The time period we have here is Era 2 of Mistborn.

 

15 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

This is likely because static Investiture acts as a conduit to the SR and continuously pulls energy into the physical world.

This is correct. I mentioned it as one of the possibilities for your proposal- getting the soldiers to power themselves directly from the Spiritual.

 

Spoiler

karsen (paraphrased)

What is the difference between innate investiture and kinetic investiture?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Kinetic investiture is energy/power that is being actively (currently) used. Innate investiture is when a person is a conduit to/from the Spiritual realm.

 

 

Not static, he addresses that differently in another WoB, but some forms of Investiture have that nature. However, AonDor is not one of them, and Aonic science isn't advanced far enough.

15 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

So it would probably take a group of Elantrians some time to figure out how to create a passive but powerful change to their soldiers, but this idea is what I'm basing their greatest strength upon.

For certain abilities, like regeneration, they may need to carry some extra Dor they can feed on occasionally.

It's a theoretical advancement in the magic, but not one they can do as of now. They'd need a strong understanding of biology and/or Realmatics to even begin.

15 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I had an additional thought today after posting on how Elantrians could make an even more formidable army: the Ire have been shown to be capable of creating pipelines of Dor far away from Sel, all the way into the edges of other solar system's subastrals. They'd need to protect those pipes from opposing forces, but they could erect fortifications to shore up stockpiles of Investiture and dole it out to troops on their front lines. Even if lines were cut, they could potentially last a while on those stores, then send out forces to reclaim the space used for the pipe.

That's what I was talking about earlier, with a logistics-based warfare centered around Investiture supply lines. Also why I recommended making your Elantrians Awakeners to- they can lessen the amount of Dor they need to operate by substituting that magic for some of AonDor's lesser functions, allowing a greater degree of independence.

Edit: Found a WoB. Just biological changes won't be enough to provide Invested abilities.

 

Spoiler

Questioner

My question is about biology and genetics. We've seen that magical systems rely on *inaudible* genetics, like allomancy, or spiritual DNA. Can we use *inaudible* CRISPR to either weaponize or take someone's magical ability or give them a magical ability?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of. The in-world version of this is Hemalurgy, as you already know. There are methods that would do this, but straight genetics alone with CRISPR wouldn't do it. You need the spiritual component for these to work, almost assuredly. You might be able to use CRISPR... no, I don't think there are any of them it would work on. Is it possible you could make someone into a kandra? That may be possible, right? But I'm not 100% sure on that.

Questioner

Can you use CRISPR with Ashyn viruses or bacteria?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably not, but that's more likely. I'd have to think on that. I'm gonna say "probably not" for now, but we'll minorly RAFO that. Good questions.

 

Edited Sunday at 06:49 PM by The White Drake

[Trusk'our he/him]

8 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

Edit: Found a WoB. Just biological changes won't be enough to provide Invested abilities.

  Hide contents

Questioner

My question is about biology and genetics. We've seen that magical systems rely on *inaudible* genetics, like allomancy, or spiritual DNA. Can we use *inaudible* CRISPR to either weaponize or take someone's magical ability or give them a magical ability?

Brandon Sanderson

Kind of. The in-world version of this is Hemalurgy, as you already know. There are methods that would do this, but straight genetics alone with CRISPR wouldn't do it. You need the spiritual component for these to work, almost assuredly. You might be able to use CRISPR... no, I don't think there are any of them it would work on. Is it possible you could make someone into a kandra? That may be possible, right? But I'm not 100% sure on that.

Questioner

Can you use CRISPR with Ashyn viruses or bacteria?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably not, but that's more likely. I'd have to think on that. I'm gonna say "probably not" for now, but we'll minorly RAFO that. Good questions.

 

Changes to the Spiritual DNA would though, which I think would be well within an Elantrian's power with some study and preparation. 

In any case, I think we don't align on the capacity of Elantrians and how difficult it would be for them to expand their repertoire at this time, so we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic.