Now that we know a little more, some questions.. [EMBERDARK SPOILERS]

[JohnTMS He/Him]

Moderate-to-Heavy Spoilers for Isles of the Emberdark lie ahead!! BEWARE!!!

Spoiler

Off the rip, should get out of the way that I still need to actually read Emberdark for myself. But slightly differing versions of these questions were floating around in my head, before spoiling myself on various articles on the Coppermind oops, so if there is anything canon that I'm getting wrong there, or otherwise, please let me know!

Have a handful of questions and lines of reasoning that have been wracking my brain as of late; walk with me?

 

It is my understanding that the Eidolon, Nephalim, Evil, whatever one desires to call them, are Splinters of Ambition comprised nearly wholly of Anti-Investiture.

This alone begs the question, in terms of Intent, what could/would Anti-Ambition Investiture do, precisely?

 

Pulling from Khriss's essay on the Threnodite System, prefacing Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell:

Quote

"...the waves of destruction, carrying with it ripped off chunks of Ambition's power, twisted both the people and the planet of Threnody."

If these waves of destruction were twisting the people and the planet, I find it reasonable to assume it could twist any chunks of Ambition's power it carried with it; inverting these splinters into Anti-Investiture if they were not already.

Additionally, the turn of phrase waves of destruction, seems to be intentional. Given what we know about The Grand Knell, in both origin and modern function in the Cosmere as of Emberdark, the Knell could be what Khriss refers to in their essay here.

 

And in regard to the Evil on Threnody specifically:

Quote

"... a terrible force that consumed the continent, feasting upon the souls of men. I do not know how much of this is metaphoric, or how much literal."

In conjunction, these quotes read to me as this Anti-Ambition Investiture being keyed towards consumption. In other words taking the measured, stable, and sustainable model of growth that standard Ambition Investiture may arguably lean toward.. and simply removing its own guardrails, so to speak, and inverting the growth inward. 

 

ALL of this to ask..

1. The Evil on Threnody grew to consume roughly an entire continent. What made it stop?
2. Anti-Ambition Investiture aka 'consumption' as an Intent does not explain the Evil's current behavior, such as that of the shades, the Three Simple Rules, and other oddities. What else then, could?
3. The "waves of destruction" as noted by Khriss shortly after Ambition's death, seem in description and consequences described to be far more powerful than how The Grand Knell appears to be, powerful still it may be, in the modern Cosmere. What changed?

 

Now, I have my own thought on all of these, but I'm dying to hear what you all think!
 

Be well, all

[Treamayne]

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25 minutes ago, JohnTMS said:

1. The Evil on Threnody grew to consume roughly an entire continent. What made it stop?
2. Anti-Ambition Investiture aka 'consumption' as an Intent does not explain the Evil's current behavior, such as that of the shades, the Three Simple Rules, and other oddities. What else then, could?
3. The "waves of destruction" as noted by Khriss shortly after Ambition's death, seem in description and consequences described to be far more powerful than how The Grand Knell appears to be, powerful still it may be, in the modern Cosmere. What changed?

1. Who said it has stopped? All we know at the time of SfSitFoH is that it has not yet found a way to cross the water to Hell. 
   • If we ever get Night Brigade, that will deal with the Continent and The Evil
   • Sunlit Man implies The Evil may have crossed to Hell at some point
2. Anti-Investiture is not known to invert the Intent based on current data. Also, it is implied (not confirmed) that The Evil is not composed of only chunks of Ambition - Odium also left chunks of power on Threnody when wounded. 
3. We do not know that the two are synonymous. Khriss was talking about what happened on Threnody. The Grand Knell does not seem to be centered on any planet, is more likely tied to where Ambition was finally Splintered (and Ambitions missing "corpse").

WoBs and References:

Spoiler

Quote

ReaderWarrior

Brandon: What is the difference between ANTI-Investiture and NEGATIVE Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's let the Arcanists-

What we're calling Negative Investiture is almost all exclusively a warping of the death of Ambition. Anti-Investiture is a very, very similar thing, but it is man-made. And they have similar functions. But the Negative Investiture is mostly self-aware in a very weird way. In a non-

The Anti-Investiture built by Navani is functionally the same, but not self-aware, not necessarily from Ambition. And that's the distinction in my mind right now. But we'll let the Arcanists drill down on me- there's Argent flipping out. He might have a different definition for it and he maybe can-

The team of Arcanists might convince me that I should use a different definition . 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

Quote

Threnodite Essay:

Long ago, soon after the Shattering, Odium clashed with (and mortally wounded) the Shard Ambition here. Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location.

Quote

RoW Epigraph to Ch 27:

"That said, the most worrying thing I discovered in this was the wound upon the Spiritual Realm where Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashed—and Ambition was destroyed. The effects on the planet Threnody have been … disturbing."

Quote

Questioner

I had a question about Odium's intent for going after Ambition. Obviously, with Devotion and Dominion teaming up, he didn't want a twosome over there. Are we ever gonna learn more about the background on Threnody? 'Cause Khriss implies that there was always Investiture there, before the clash. So I'm looking for a little bit of information about the Evil before the Admiral's background story.

Brandon Sanderson

Before the clash, the Evil was not the Evil. It is the clash that warped it. And Secret Project Five has a splintered piece of Ambition as a plot point. Some of these books... All that stuff I said about not having to know multiple magic systems? That goes out the window for things like Secret Project Five. Those are books that are about that. You will find out some more there; it's gonna take me a long time to get to what actually happened with Ambition, why, and things like that. Know that Odium was not expecting it to be as hard as it was and ended up severely wounded in that clash.

C2E2 2024 (April 26, 2024)

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IslayThePeaty

Does Ambition factor into Sel, either in the events we've seen on-planet or in terms of where Uli Da was ultimately spintered?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO this for now. Suffice it to say that this specific splintering has had far-reaching effects.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 6, 2017)

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Questioner

Was the creation of the Evil an intentional result of the splintering of Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Odium didn't really know what he was doing, but he knew he didn't want to have the same thing happen that happened on Sel. And what happened was worse. So, this is why Odium had to recuperate and could not really attack Honor and Cultivation and kind of had to sideways work with them a little bit, because of what happened there.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

Quote

Legionrip

In Sunlit Man there is an incredible amount of Investiture at the core of Canticle. We know that Odium, Ambition, and Mercy clashed near Threnody but that Ambition did not die there. Could Canticle be a grave or tomb for the corpse of Ambition and its Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

It could be, but it's not.

Legionrip

It would connect the Threnodites being in both systems. The rings could be intended to keep the Investiture from spilling out into the rest of the system and making it incredibly dangerous to traverse like Sel.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a great question and a great theory; but I know where Ambition's corpse is, and it's not there.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

 

Hope that helps

[Schizoposting]

I think that it's pretty clear that the Evil is not composed of anti-Ambition, but of anti-investiture as such. So, its intent is the opposition towards regular investiture, which is why individual Nephilim seek to destroy as much of it as possible.

[JohnTMS He/Him]

6 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Hope that helps

Truly, it does! Walk with me still:

Spoiler

Quote

ReaderWarrior

Brandon: What is the difference between ANTI-Investiture and NEGATIVE Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's let the Arcanists-

What we're calling Negative Investiture is almost all exclusively a warping of the death of Ambition. Anti-Investiture is a very, very similar thing, but it is man-made. And they have similar functions. But the Negative Investiture is mostly self-aware in a very weird way. In a non-

The Anti-Investiture built by Navani is functionally the same, but not self-aware, not necessarily from Ambition. And that's the distinction in my mind right now. But we'll let the Arcanists drill down on me- there's Argent flipping out. He might have a different definition for it and he maybe can-

The team of Arcanists might convince me that I should use a different definition . 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

Exactly! The Coppermind's article on the Evil, with numerous citations from Isles of the Emberdark, use the term Anti-Investiture, though Negative Investiture or some other term may end up being more correct down the line. But in this case, Negative Ambition Investiture and Anti-Ambition Investiture should be, as Brandon stated, "functionally the same". Self-aware or not, power derived purely from Inverted Investiture of Ambition alone does not explain the nature of the Evil as they currently exist, and specifically for the Eidolon residing on Threnody - the Three Simple Rules, the Shades, and changes over time I noted.

Quote

Threnodite Essay:

Long ago, soon after the Shattering, Odium clashed with (and mortally wounded) the Shard Ambition here. Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location.

Duly noted, The Coppermind's article on The Grand Knell may need to slightly alter itself around its 2nd citation, perhaps. However, regardless of precisely where Ambition died, I'm merely positing that the Grand Knell may have been the original source, or at minimum transporter, of the Evil that came to Threnody. If ships can now sail the pulses of the Current in the modern Cosmere, presumably, even with zero outside influence, its pulses plausibly would have been stronger closer to its creation. [If you really want a real-world comparison that probably only fits halfway, consider it a black hole shrinking due to Hawking Radiation.] Strong enough maybe, if 'necessary' to carry a Nephalim all the way to Threnody, alongisde the then-cataclysmic waves coming from the Knell.

Long story short, location of Ambition's death doesn't matter in the particulars in terms of my question(s). Just if the metaphorical bell that began tolling right after it happened, being strong and close *enough* to throw an Eidolon or the mechanism to Invert it to its current state, to Threnody.

Quote

Questioner

I had a question about Odium's intent for going after Ambition. Obviously, with Devotion and Dominion teaming up, he didn't want a twosome over there. Are we ever gonna learn more about the background on Threnody? 'Cause Khriss implies that there was always Investiture there, before the clash. So I'm looking for a little bit of information about the Evil before the Admiral's background story.

Brandon Sanderson

Before the clash, the Evil was not the Evil. It is the clash that warped it. And Secret Project Five has a splintered piece of Ambition as a plot point. Some of these books... All that stuff I said about not having to know multiple magic systems? That goes out the window for things like Secret Project Five. Those are books that are about that. You will find out some more there; it's gonna take me a long time to get to what actually happened with Ambition, why, and things like that. Know that Odium was not expecting it to be as hard as it was and ended up severely wounded in that clash.

C2E2 2024 (April 26, 2024)

Right.. So if Emberdark and other future novels that share this similarity in requiring in-depth knowledge of multiple magic systems to fully understand - magic systems that we as readers may not fully comprehend ourselves until potentially many books after... Then for concepts explored in them, we should keep an open and clear mind when trying to see how new information folds into the old, as well as to look for an answer that fits every bill. Answers all the (my) questions, or as many as we can with a synthesis of the canonical information we have and information on how Sanderson's larger systems tend to play out emergently.

Quote

RoW Epigraph to Ch 27:

"That said, the most worrying thing I discovered in this was the wound upon the Spiritual Realm where Ambition, Mercy, and Odium clashed—and Ambition was destroyed. The effects on the planet Threnody have been … disturbing."

Again, right.. so more fuel to the metaphorical fire of having multiple systems of Invested Art at play in the grand scheme of this clash, and its long-lasting repercussions. 

Quote

IslayThePeaty

Does Ambition factor into Sel, either in the events we've seen on-planet or in terms of where Uli Da was ultimately spintered?

Brandon Sanderson

I'll RAFO this for now. Suffice it to say that this specific splintering has had far-reaching effects.

General Reddit 2017 (Dec. 6, 2017)

Exactly! Hence my curiosity! Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm *buzz*

Quote

Questioner

Was the creation of the Evil an intentional result of the splintering of Ambition?

Brandon Sanderson

No. Odium didn't really know what he was doing, but he knew he didn't want to have the same thing happen that happened on Sel. And what happened was worse. So, this is why Odium had to recuperate and could not really attack Honor and Cultivation and kind of had to sideways work with them a little bit, because of what happened there.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

A navigational constant with some Anti/Negative 1-6 Invested Entities that like to be near it doesn't precisely sound like something categorically worse than what happened on Sel, even if Odium had to recuperate after the event that created it. Unless that particular clause in that WoB is referring specifically from the perspective of Odium/Rayse themselves, given the delta between how Rayse interpreted his own Intent versus the rest of the Cosmere.

Quote

Legionrip

In Sunlit Man there is an incredible amount of Investiture at the core of Canticle. We know that Odium, Ambition, and Mercy clashed near Threnody but that Ambition did not die there. Could Canticle be a grave or tomb for the corpse of Ambition and its Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

It could be, but it's not.

Legionrip

It would connect the Threnodites being in both systems. The rings could be intended to keep the Investiture from spilling out into the rest of the system and making it incredibly dangerous to traverse like Sel.

Brandon Sanderson

This is a great question and a great theory; but I know where Ambition's corpse is, and it's not there.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

This, in conjunction with the wording previously described for the page on the Coppermind regarding The Grand Knell, seems to create quite the point of confusion for everyone trying to think about this. Here's my interpretation, synthesizing the sources we have:

• RoW Ch.27 Epigraph and the Threnodite Essay suggests that while the final Splintering of Ambition/creation of The Grand Knell may not have happened super close to Threnody, or even in the Threnodite System itself - it must have been close enough to Threnody to impact it in a major way.
• Making the Coppermind's generalization of the Grand Knell being "near Threnody" accurate in the grand scheme of the Cosmere, but in terms of the specifics, something that breaks down.

Edited May 28 by JohnTMS
Typo after C2E2 2024 WoB; now = new

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

Walk with me still:

Understood, but I think you missed my main point:

Spoiler

1. Clash on Threnody
   • The Evil is formed from torn chunks of Odium and Ambition coalescing; likely a splinter of at least two (merged) Intents (possibly a Splinter existed that was warped into the Evil by those extra chunks)
2. Time Passes
3. Final clash in space, Ambition is Splintered, Grand Knell is formed

Splinter:

Quote

A Splinter is the term for a specific type of fragment of Investiture that is ultimately derived from Adonalsium.^[2] These Splinters can be composed of a single Shard's power or the Investiture of multiple Shards. They are present in many worlds of the cosmere, sometimes in abundant quantities^[3] or with self-aware personalities,^[4] while other times they are absent altogether or exist simply as a chunk of raw power guided by something else.

 

[alder24]

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

It is my understanding that the Eidolon, Nephalim, Evil, whatever one desires to call them, are Splinters of Ambition comprised nearly wholly of Anti-Investiture.

This alone begs the question, in terms of Intent, what could/would Anti-Ambition Investiture do, precisely?

Just because it's anti investiture, it doesn't mean its intent was reversed. It wasn't, it's still ambition. Just like a light wave inverted is still a light wave, or antimatter has a normal mass, not negative mass. However, in the case of Evil, IoE said they are made out of negative investiture, which is slightly different. What's more, the book said Ambition's intent was fully removed from all this Splintered investiture (and the quote and WoB suggest there is no Odium's investiture in them, just Ambition's). IoE ch 54:

Quote

“That is not some creature from your mythology,” Starling said. “It’s what we call a negative-Investiture entity, a . . . type 3? Type 2? Shards, Ed knows. Anyway, a long time ago—when the Shards were newly born—one named Odium attacked and killed his sibling. A god was destroyed, torn apart, its Intent removed and its pieces made into some kind of terrible negative energy. They roam the emberdark, seeking souls to consume.”

 

Spoiler

ReaderWarrior

Brandon: What is the difference between ANTI-Investiture and NEGATIVE Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's let the Arcanists-

What we're calling Negative Investiture is almost all exclusively a warping of the death of Ambition. Anti-Investiture is a very, very similar thing, but it is man-made. And they have similar functions. But the Negative Investiture is mostly self-aware in a very weird way. In a non-

The Anti-Investiture built by Navani is functionally the same, but not self-aware, not necessarily from Ambition. And that's the distinction in my mind right now. But we'll let the Arcanists drill down on me- there's Argent flipping out. He might have a different definition for it and he maybe can-

The team of Arcanists might convince me that I should use a different definition . 

YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025)

 

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

If these waves of destruction were twisting the people and the planet, I find it reasonable to assume it could twist any chunks of Ambition's power it carried with it; inverting these splinters into Anti-Investiture if they were not already.

Threnodites and Shades are not made out of anti-investiture, but a normal one which was corrupted. They would still be fully annihilated if touched by anti-investiture or the Evil. IoE ch 49:

Quote

“My intel,” Dajer says, “indicates you and the shade have traveled together for quite a while. He was involved in the events that got you imprisoned, was he not? A good friend, always by your side.” Dajer looked to her. “He will die to negative Investiture, just like any shade."

 

Spoiler

Questioner

So the Threnodites are described as having a smokey shadow something to their soul; we don't really know what that is. Is it more similar to the black smoke that comes from Awakened objects in Yumi and Nightblood? Or is it more like Midnight Essence in Tress?

Brandon Sanderson

It is more like Breath than it is like either one of those. More like Breath, but something's a little wrong with it

Dragonsteel 2023 (Nov. 21, 2023)

 

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

Additionally, the turn of phrase waves of destruction, seems to be intentional. Given what we know about The Grand Knell, in both origin and modern function in the Cosmere as of Emberdark, the Knell could be what Khriss refers to in their essay here.

The Grand Knell was indeed made during the Splintering of Ambition, and it is located near Threnody. IoE ch 25:

Quote

Even Starling knew what that meant: an entity of negative Investiture. One of the things born from the same event that had killed a god, made the Current, erupted into the Knell.
[...]
The Knell—the name they had for the enormous natural beacon near Threnody—gave at least one data point.

 

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

In conjunction, these quotes read to me as this Anti-Ambition Investiture being keyed towards consumption. In other words taking the measured, stable, and sustainable model of growth that standard Ambition Investiture may arguably lean toward.. and simply removing its own guardrails, so to speak, and inverting the growth inward. 

 

ALL of this to ask..

1. The Evil on Threnody grew to consume roughly an entire continent. What made it stop?

Once again, there is no Anti-Ambition, the Evil seems to be made out of raw, intentless anti-investiture and because they are sentient, they can decide what to do. The book suggests that the Evil destroyed almost all of Threnody before moving out into wider Cosmere - that's why they stopped, there was nothing left for them to consume. IoE ch 27: 

Quote

Nobody knew quite what these things were, the entities that had all but destroyed the planet Threnody—then moved out into the cosmere, hunting and exterminating life. Perhaps they searched for that which had been taken from them in the death of the god they’d once been part of.

 

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

• Anti-Ambition Investiture aka 'consumption' as an Intent does not explain the Evil's current behavior, such as that of the shades, the Three Simple Rules, and other oddities. What else then, could?

There was a theory that the Three Simple Rules each were influenced by the intent of Odium, Ambition and Mercy. Can't remember the details now. In any case, the Evil is fully sentient so it can act on its own (just like spren, just because Honorspren are out of Honor it doesn't mean they have to be like Honor), they show signs of curiosity and intentional cruelty. Shades show some level of self-awareness, but they're mostly twisted and corrupted CS that spread that corruption as it touches others.  

Spoiler

Kurkistan

If you're on Threnody and you get withered by a shade, are you better off burning Allomantic aluminum, or tapping Feruchemical gold?

*laughter*

[clarification on the question]

Brandon Sanderson

They would both work pretty well. I would say if you burned aluminum, that would kind of have the effect that you are wanting it to have, which is the effect-- negating and sucking out, so that's probably safer. But the gold would work, too.

Kurkistan

So would it be fair to describe withering as a kind of cancerous Forging-

Brandon Sanderson

Sure.

Kurkistan

That just kind of slowly takes over your soul?

Brandon Sanderson

Sure.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

12 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

• The "waves of destruction" as noted by Khriss shortly after Ambition's death, seem in description and consequences described to be far more powerful than how The Grand Knell appears to be, powerful still it may be, in the modern Cosmere. What changed?

Well, because the waves of destruction were from a direct confrontation between Odium and Ambition and Ambition's Splintering, the Current is made by whatever was left out afterwards. A plank dropped into water generates massive waves on impact, but once it starts floating, there are only gentle waves made by it. 

7 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

A navigational constant with some Anti/Negative 1-6 Invested Entities that like to be near it doesn't precisely sound like something categorically worse than what happened on Sel, even if Odium had to recuperate after the event that created it.

You mean a nearly global extinction of Threnody and the creation of multiple gozillas roaming freely across Cosmere isn't worse than what happened on Sel, which mostly affects CR alone?? 

7 hours ago, JohnTMS said:

• RoW Ch.27 Epigraph and the Threnodite Essay suggests that while the final Splintering of Ambition/creation of The Grand Knell may not have happened super close to Threnody, or even in the Threnodite System itself - it must have been close enough to Threnody to impact it in a major way.

The waves of destruction were not necessarily the result of the final Splintering of Ambition, just the clash between Shards was enough to create them and they started to fight before Ambition left the Threnodite system. WaT spoilers:

Spoiler

And we know from WaT that the direct clash of Shards can be extremely destructive and leads to creation of anti-investiture. Just a small fight between Honor and Odium lay waste to Stormseat. We also know that if one of the Shards' intent wants to protect, the destruction can be avoided (that's why Scadrial wasn't destroyed while Ruin and Preservation were fighting) and I doubt Ambition in its intent cares about protection at all. A full scale fight between Shards without restraint would certainly be extremely destructive even before Ambition was finally Splintered.

AU:

Quote

Long ago, soon after the Shattering, Odium clashed with (and mortally wounded) the Shard Ambition here. Ambition would later be Splintered, though that final act took place in a different location.
The direct clash between two Shards of Adonalsium had a profound effect on the planets of this system. Though the actual battle took place in the vast space between planets—and though the true contest happened mostly in other Realms—the ripples of destruction and change washed through the system.

 

Edited May 28 by alder24