The Return of Dawn

[PanLin they/he]

2 minutes ago, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

“Here in this world I found perfection, a relic of the being I had slain for his own good. Roshar had been grown entirely from equations, as a grand testament to the divine nature of mathematics—a celebration of the intimate relationship between song, numbers, and art.

 

There was Honor in this.”

6 minutes ago, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

Cyan, magenta, yellow, she thought, remembering her color theory lessons.

Those are genuinely compelling quotes and arguments, but I don't think I'm quite on board considering what we know (though limited) about Virtuosity.

Unless yellow and black are represented by humans with Virtuosity's Investiture and the nightmares/shroud. Or maybe Hion lines are like a waste by-product, where the yellow is consumed and used, leaving only the cyan and magenta to leak out. I think that one makes more sense tbh, considering how important duality is on Komashi—the spirits always split into two parts, so maybe there's actually a triality, and the yellow part represents the Investiture that's used up, which is why we don't see it.

Maybe it's simply to do with how Virtuosity splintered herself.

 

6 minutes ago, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

I also wouldn’t put it past Cultivation to help conceal another shard on Roshar, she’s sneaky like that.

100% agree, though that doesn't point to Viruosity anymore than any other Shard. Who knows what that sneaky dragon is up to.

Virtuosity's influence would work nicely with Cryptics and Lightweavers (like you mentioned above about their potential relationship with Dawn/Light), but I think Reason's influence could be broader—Dustbringers, Edgedancers, Truthwatchers, Lightweavers and Elsecallers all deal with truth/understanding, and if Jasnah is anything to go by for the personality traits of Elsecallers, then that Order feels extremely Reason-coded.

 

15 minutes ago, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

Food for thought, it’s fun spinning possibilities with a fellow theorist. 

It absolutely is, I love this stuff 

 

16 minutes ago, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

Along your line of Mistspren/Ashspren, I read on one of these forums an observation made. If there were going to be two spren representing Scadrial, (Leras and Ati) could there be a better representation for those two? Mistspren even wear a mask exactly like the Malwish. 

That does sound compelling, but then by the same logic we can say that Reachers represent Scadrial because they're made of metal 

 

18 minutes ago, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

Is it possible a large group of people from Scadrial, at some point in the past, found their way to Roshar and their thoughts/perceptions influenced those two sprens forms?

Definitely a fun possibility. 

But yes, this. Definitely possible. I wonder if we can extrapolate a Shard for each type of Radiant spren, where each one was inspired by a Shard based on Honor's perception of them, for example:

• Reachers: Preservation
• Mistspren: Ruin / Endowment
• Ashspren: Endowment / Ruin
• Honorspren: Honor
• Cultivationspren: Cultivation
• Cryptics: Virtuosity

[HoidProbablyDidIt]

2 hours ago, PanLin said:

Those are genuinely compelling quotes and arguments, but I don't think I'm quite on board considering what we know (though limited) about Virtuosity.

Unless yellow and black are represented by humans with Virtuosity's Investiture and the nightmares/shroud. Or maybe Hion lines are like a waste by-product, where the yellow is consumed and used, leaving only the cyan and magenta to leak out. I think that one makes more sense tbh, considering how important duality is on Komashi—the spirits always split into two parts, so maybe there's actually a triality, and the yellow part represents the Investiture that's used up, which is why we don't see it.

Maybe it's simply to do with how Virtuosity splintered herself.

 

100% agree, though that doesn't point to Viruosity anymore than any other Shard. Who knows what that sneaky dragon is up to.

Virtuosity's influence would work nicely with Cryptics and Lightweavers (like you mentioned above about their potential relationship with Dawn/Light), but I think Reason's influence could be broader—Dustbringers, Edgedancers, Truthwatchers, Lightweavers and Elsecallers all deal with truth/understanding, and if Jasnah is anything to go by for the personality traits of Elsecallers, then that Order feels extremely Reason-coded.

 

It absolutely is, I love this stuff 

 

That does sound compelling, but then by the same logic we can say that Reachers represent Scadrial because they're made of metal 

 

But yes, this. Definitely possible. I wonder if we can extrapolate a Shard for each type of Radiant spren, where each one was inspired by a Shard based on Honor's perception of them, for example:

• Reachers: Preservation
• Mistspren: Ruin / Endowment
• Ashspren: Endowment / Ruin
• Honorspren: Honor
• Cultivationspren: Cultivation
• Cryptics: Virtuosity

Thanks for the response and the insights! As to the colors Shallan saw in the vision, the presence of (and B$’ precise description) magenta and cyan is too specific to be a coincidence based on his comments. I’m not sure where black comes into the picture you mentioned? We don’t really know a lot about Virtuosity or the specifics of the nature of that shard. I can say to the yellow being present, I found this comment by B$:

 

Spoiler

Kingdaughter613

The hion colors are two of the inks used in printers, magenta and cyan.

Brandon Sanderson

They are.

Kingdaughter613

Was this intentional?

Brandon Sanderson

 Yes.

Kingdaughter613

If so, what happened to yellow?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. RAFO.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

Hmmm, the plot thickens my friend.

There are too many ‘coincidences’ for something Virtuosity related to not be going on with Roshar for me.

I see your point with Reason and logic also being major characteristic traits of many radiant spren. We can’t ignore that as many times as it’s mentioned. Like Virtuosity, we know so little about Reason.  You may be onto something. 

I still stand by a fourth primeval steward being present on Roshar with the OP.  The evidence is compelling for a Dawn/Light/Truth presence.  I’m speculating on how it (or Virtuosity) might have influenced the formation/ creation of spren. 

I’ve always found it curious that the high storm is composed primarily of wind, darkness, earth in the form of crem in the rain, and lightning/thunder; all of which brings life and renewal to the planet. 

I love your idea of H + C having potentially paid tribute to the other shard vessels in the physical forms of many spren. That would be a fun nod. 

I would like to point out a physical connection between Scadrial and Roshar which corroborates there was a group from Scadrial who fled to Roshar in the past…

WaT chapter 75:

Spoiler

“Today Szeth prayed, bowing before a brilliant stone: two feet across with a crystal vein running through the center. It opened at one side like a mouth, the crystal forming teeth. The spren of this stone certainly seemed an ostentatious type.

“Spren,” he whispered. “In wisdom, please, guide me.”

Every important moment in his life had involved a stone, hadn’t it? Was this one looking back, as he gazed upon it? Hesitant, he reached out and put his hand on it, feeling the grain of the surface, jutting with little bits of clear crystal. Still such a strange sensation, like the skin of some beast.

For a moment he felt … memories. As if … this stone had come from another place, and remembered being carried … with a group of terrified people …”

And for comparison to the description of Atium crystal geode on Scadrial, I submit The Final Empire Chapter 32:

Spoiler

”At the direct middle of the circular pattern, the crystals curved inward, following a hollow pocket in the wall. Here the crystals grew long, each one having a jagged, sharp edge. Like teeth lining the maw of a stone beast.”

The similarity of descriptions by B$ is too identical to be a coincidence. Demonstrates physical proof a group of people fled Scadrial at some point in the past to Roshar with an Atium crystal geode, giving an explanation to the presence of Mistspren and Ashspren. 
 

[KWbinder]

After my summer reread, came to the same conclusion that there was a 4th Adon god?spirit?spren? that had been forgotten (or rejected?) by the time H&C showed up.

Besides the Venli arc it was the statement from Szeth that rang bells:

W&T ch. 94

Spoiler

“God left us,” he whispered. “God created the world, saw that it pleased him, then moved on. He is the sun high above, and beyond.”

That just popped out that 

Spoiler

the sun as a 4th Adon spren was possible.

Love the rest of the food for thought in this thread!!!

[Jult]

21 hours ago, KWbinder said:

After my summer reread, came to the same conclusion that there was a 4th Adon god?spirit?spren? that had been forgotten (or rejected?) by the time H&C showed up.

Besides the Venli arc it was the statement from Szeth that rang bells:

W&T ch. 94

  Reveal hidden contents

“God left us,” he whispered. “God created the world, saw that it pleased him, then moved on. He is the sun high above, and beyond.”

That just popped out that 

  Reveal hidden contents

the sun as a 4th Adon spren was possible.

Love the rest of the food for thought in this thread!!!

Welcome to the 17th Shard! Glad to hear there are more fans with similar ideas. I do think we're on to something here. If I ever get around to another re-read, I'm definitely going to be keeping an eye out for any sun/day/dawn references.

Side note: You should create a topic over in the Introduce Yourself! forum. It's a good place to let everyone know what books you've read already so nobody spoils anything on you. Always nice to see some new users with new ideas. Things have been a bit slow lately because it's been a while since a new book released.

[Nitpicking]

SPOILER for White Sand

Spoiler

We see a sapient sun with a face in White Sand. I believe there's a WoB, there is certainly speculation, that it's an Avatar of Autonomy.

[Mystfall He/Him]

Alright. I don’t have books on me(as is usually for me) but I do have thoughts.

On 5/25/2026 at 8:03 PM, HoidProbablyDidIt said:

Thanks for the response and the insights! As to the colors Shallan saw in the vision, the presence of (and B$’ precise description) magenta and cyan is too specific to be a coincidence based on his comments. I’m not sure where black comes into the picture you mentioned? We don’t really know a lot about Virtuosity or the specifics of the nature of that shard. I can say to the yellow being present, I found this comment by B$:

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Kingdaughter613

The hion colors are two of the inks used in printers, magenta and cyan.

Brandon Sanderson

They are.

Kingdaughter613

Was this intentional?

Brandon Sanderson

 Yes.

Kingdaughter613

If so, what happened to yellow?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. RAFO.

Secret Project #3 Reveal and Livestream (March 22, 2022)

Hmmm, the plot thickens my friend.

There are too many ‘coincidences’ for something Virtuosity related to not be going on with Roshar for me.

I see your point with Reason and logic also being major characteristic traits of many radiant spren. We can’t ignore that as many times as it’s mentioned. Like Virtuosity, we know so little about Reason.  You may be onto something. 

I still stand by a fourth primeval steward being present on Roshar with the OP.  The evidence is compelling for a Dawn/Light/Truth presence.  I’m speculating on how it (or Virtuosity) might have influenced the formation/ creation of spren. 

I’ve always found it curious that the high storm is composed primarily of wind, darkness, earth in the form of crem in the rain, and lightning/thunder; all of which brings life and renewal to the planet. 

I love your idea of H + C having potentially paid tribute to the other shard vessels in the physical forms of many spren. That would be a fun nod. 

I would like to point out a physical connection between Scadrial and Roshar which corroborates there was a group from Scadrial who fled to Roshar in the past…

WaT chapter 75:

 

  Hide contents

“Today Szeth prayed, bowing before a brilliant stone: two feet across with a crystal vein running through the center. It opened at one side like a mouth, the crystal forming teeth. The spren of this stone certainly seemed an ostentatious type.

“Spren,” he whispered. “In wisdom, please, guide me.”

Every important moment in his life had involved a stone, hadn’t it? Was this one looking back, as he gazed upon it? Hesitant, he reached out and put his hand on it, feeling the grain of the surface, jutting with little bits of clear crystal. Still such a strange sensation, like the skin of some beast.

For a moment he felt … memories. As if … this stone had come from another place, and remembered being carried … with a group of terrified people …”

And for comparison to the description of Atium crystal geode on Scadrial, I submit The Final Empire Chapter 32:

  Hide contents

”At the direct middle of the circular pattern, the crystals curved inward, following a hollow pocket in the wall. Here the crystals grew long, each one having a jagged, sharp edge. Like teeth lining the maw of a stone beast.”

The similarity of descriptions by B$ is too identical to be a coincidence. Demonstrates physical proof a group of people fled Scadrial at some point in the past to Roshar with an Atium crystal geode, giving an explanation to the presence of Mistspren and Ashspren. 
 

WoB

Spoiler

Kaymyth

So, in one of Szeth's flashbacks, he's seen praying to a stone which gives him the impression it's foreign to Roshar, and I'm going to read a couple of descriptions.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay.

Kaymyth

"...brilliant stone: two feet across with a crystal vein running through the center. It opened at one side like a mouth, the crystal forming teeth." (Wind and Truth)

"At the direct middle of the circular pattern, the crystals curved inward, following a pocketlike hollow in the wall. Here, the crystals grew long, each one having a jagged, sharp edge. Like teeth lining the maw of a stone beast." (The Final Empire)

The descriptions bear a striking resemblance to each other. Is Szeth praying to an atium crystal?

Brandon Sanderson

Hm! Excellent question.

Footnote: The quotation from Wind and Truth comes from chapter 75. The quotation from The Final Empire comes from chapter 32.
Shardcast Interview (May 25, 2025)

To me this just says yes There isn’t a Rafo card, but it’s still a strong indication.

Also, another WoB:

Spoiler

Wildhogs2011

I was wondering, there is three primordial gods on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Wildhogs2011

And we know that one of them protects, one of them nurtures and one of them shrouds. We assume that the Wind is the one that protects from the books. However, because Cultivation is seemingly linked to the Night. Would that mean the Night is the one that nurtures?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you can make that extrapolation. You can do that. Okay. I am there with you but there is a little more to it.

MCM London Comic Con 2026 (May 22, 2026)

I couldn’t find what this one is referencing(I’ll edit it if I find it) but this(to me) suggests the possibility that “Dawn” is the own who shrouds. Wind protects. And Stone Nurtures. Leaves a question about what Night does.

Just found where it comes from via the coppermind.

WaT 100

Spoiler

“There were echoes, of my predecessor. Little bits of him left behind. Three powerful incarnations who had his voice, and many smaller ones representing aspects of nature and personality....Shadows of divinity with instructions to protect, to shroud, to nurture. One sang to me, in particular, and that invigorated me, though I did not know why the Wind was chosen to protect. Wind, invisible Wind, so flighty and immaterial.”

So maybe not. This suggest Tanavast knew about this and that seems weird if he didn’t know about Dawn. I can’t see how he’d know Dawns intent and not the others if he didn’t know about Dawn. 

Another thing I saw on this thread was that all the ancient Spren could be seen in the Highstorms. Lighting could be Dawn’s representation. A flash of light in the dark in comparison to the flash of light from the sun beginning to rise.

Also, WoB that I found interesting:

Spoiler

Paleo

On the Discord also they tried to... because the moon is always like on the horizon and they did the math and technically it's possible but it would have to change its inclination I think through one hundred degrees every turn. Is it natural or is it also maintained by...

Brandon Sanderson

It is also maintained by the system. We ran the math on that one too. It, like, the Rosharans also are not in a stable orbit but this one's even less in a stable orbit, let's just say that.

Paleo

Somebody did like the universe simulator thing and somebody ran it to Roshar and they said it crashed into each other.

Brandon Sanderson

I mean they would, we find we got like ten, no like a hundred thousand years before it happens but yeah, the moons are very not stable on Roshar, let's just say that. I'm not convinced that the continent is stable either. On geological terms I don't think... if Roshar were as old as Earth is, you would not have a continent, is what I think. Even with the crem and stuff.

Paleo

The crem isn't enough... you said before that it shifts east?

Brandon Sanderson

That's what I think, I haven't done the math but that's what my instinct says that it wouldn't be enough. But we'll leave that for people who actually run the math until they... because I do not have time to get a degree in ecological science.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

Especially with this one:

Spoiler

Jofwu

Roshar's moons, do they have special spren associated with them?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

We know there was a 4th moon. And it seems each moon have a Spren. And one crashed to the earth. And the others eventually will.

I have words I want to say to extrapolate on this, but the words aren’t working right now. So hopefully someone can take this and make it useful