Surges and their relation to the Order's beliefs and Ideals.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

I was thinking about this, and could someone help me? I'm sure there is some sort of connection between them, but I can't quite piece together a few

	Tenet	Connection1	Connection2	Belief
Bondsmith	I will unite	Tension	Adhesion	Create a group
Adhesion	Binding/Connection	Windrunner	Bondsmith
Windrunner	I will protect	Adhesion	Gravitation	Enforce your own justice
Gravitation	Gravity/Directional Pull	Skybreaker	Windrunner
Skybreaker	I will seek justice	Gravitation	Division	Enforce the system
Division	Destruction/Decay	Dustbringer	Skybreaker
Dustbringer	I will seek self-control	Division	Abrasion	Understand Self
Abrasion	Friction	Edgedancer	Dustbringer
Edgedancer	I will remember	Abrasion	Progression	Understand others
Progression	Growth/Regrowth	Truthwatcher	Edgedancer	External from self
Truthwatcher	I will seek the truth	Progression	Illumination	Seek the external truth
Illumination	Light Manipulation	Lightweaver	Truthwatcher	Seek truth
Lightweaver	I will speak my truth	Illumination	Transformation	Seek the internal truth
Transformation	Matter Change	Elsecaller	Lightweaver	The individual
Elsecaller	I will reach my potential	Transformation	Transportation	Advance the individual
Transportation	Realmatic Shift	Willshaper	Elsecaller
Willshaper	I will seek freedom	Transportation	Cohesion	Help towards freedom
Cohesion	Shape Change	Stoneward	Willshaper
Stoneward	I will be there when I'm needed	Cohesion	Tension	Help a group
Tension	Stiffness	Bondsmith	Stoneward
Bondsmith	I will unite	Tension	Adhesion	Create a group

 

[PanLin they/he]

54 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

I was thinking about this, and could someone help me? I'm sure there is some sort of connection between them, but I can't quite piece together a few

Great timing, I've been doing a whole bunch of thinking on the Radiants recently.

What sort of connection are you trying to find? Looks like you're trying to formalise both the theme of each order from their two Surges, and the theme of each Surge from their two orders?

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

10 hours ago, PanLin said:

Great timing, I've been doing a whole bunch of thinking on the Radiants recently.

What sort of connection are you trying to find? Looks like you're trying to formalise both the theme of each order from their two Surges, and the theme of each Surge from their two orders?

I was initially looking at Escallers-Lightweavers-Truthwatchers

as they follow a pattern of InternalImprovement-SeekInternal-SeekExternal and I thought that would fit well with their surges, so I started toying around with a few others, and finding some connections to them.

[PanLin they/he]

17 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

I was initially looking at Escallers-Lightweavers-Truthwatchers

as they follow a pattern of InternalImprovement-SeekInternal-SeekExternal and I thought that would fit well with their surges, so I started toying around with a few others, and finding some connections to them.

Oh fun! For the record, I agree with you and fully believe there's a pattern there. I actually did some thinking on this the other day while prepping for my Ideals theory (no pressure to go read it unless you're interested, I'm just going to copy-paste the important section here:

Spoiler

Getting metaphysical

I couldn't help myself in adding this in, and I do think it helps guide our thinking as to what the oaths and ideals actually are. Pulling from my theory that there are only 8 true surges (Adhesion and Progression, and therefore Bondsmith and Truthwatcher, were directly added by Honor and Cultivation as pure representations of themselves), we can naturally group the 10 orders into three groups, based on their position and the number of connections they have in the Double Eye diagram:

Spoiler

Orders with four connections all have a direct connection to one of the two 'God Orders', aka primary orders. These orders can be considered as abstractions of those primary orders that operate solely on either Identity or Connection (eg: Windrunners and Stonewards take the core concept of Bondsmiths and contextually apply it in different ways).

Orders with three connections lack a connection to a primary order and can be considered as further abstractions, operating on some combination of Identity and Connection (eg: Skybreakers use an external Connection to laws or other structures to inform their Identity, where Elsecallers define a Connection they wish to fulfill and use that to inform their growth and Identity).

Primary orders:

• Bondsmith (pure Honor)
• Truthwatcher (pure Cultivation)

Secondary orders:

• Windrunner (external Bondsmith abstraction, Connection)
• Edgedancer (external Truthwatcher abstraction, Identity)
• Lightweaver (internal Truthwatcher abstraction, Identity)
• Stoneward (internal Bondsmith abstraction, Connection)

Tertiary orders:

• Skybreakers (internalised Connection to inform Identity)
• Dustbringers (internalised Identity to inform Connection)
• Elsecallers (externalised Connection to inform Identity)
• Willshapers (externalised Identity to inform Connection)

 

17 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Escallers-Lightweavers-Truthwatchers

as they follow a pattern of InternalImprovement-SeekInternal-SeekExternal

So yeah, I agree with this framing! I kind of treat Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers as the cardinal poles of the Radiants and move outward from there, so secondary orders (four connections) are still mostly aligned with either Honor or Cultivation and are abstractions of Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers in internal/external pairs. Tertiary orders (three connections) are even further abstracted and are less aligned with a specific Shard, drawing from them both in a more balanced way.

Which is all to say that I basically agree with you. For example, Truthwatchers seek truth, nice and simple, then Elselcallers abstract it a bit and apply it more externally (seeking truths about people that would otherwise be lost to time).

I also find it much easier to visualise as a diagram, imo it makes the connections and 'tiers' really clear:

 

 

I'd be super interested to hear your thoughts on that and where it aligns and clashes with your thinking!

Edited April 10 by PanLin

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

8 hours ago, PanLin said:

Oh fun! For the record, I agree with you and fully believe there's a pattern there. I actually did some thinking on this the other day while prepping for my Ideals theory (no pressure to go read it unless you're interested, I'm just going to copy-paste the important section here:

  Reveal hidden contents

Getting metaphysical

I couldn't help myself in adding this in, and I do think it helps guide our thinking as to what the oaths and ideals actually are. Pulling from my theory that there are only 8 true surges (Adhesion and Progression, and therefore Bondsmith and Truthwatcher, were directly added by Honor and Cultivation as pure representations of themselves), we can naturally group the 10 orders into three groups, based on their position and the number of connections they have in the Double Eye diagram:

  Reveal hidden contents

Orders with four connections all have a direct connection to one of the two 'God Orders', aka primary orders. These orders can be considered as abstractions of those primary orders that operate solely on either Identity or Connection (eg: Windrunners and Stonewards take the core concept of Bondsmiths and contextually apply it in different ways).

Orders with three connections lack a connection to a primary order and can be considered as further abstractions, operating on some combination of Identity and Connection (eg: Skybreakers use an external Connection to laws or other structures to inform their Identity, where Elsecallers define a Connection they wish to fulfill and use that to inform their growth and Identity).

Primary orders:

• Bondsmith (pure Honor)
• Truthwatcher (pure Cultivation)

Secondary orders:

• Windrunner (external Bondsmith abstraction, Connection)
• Edgedancer (external Truthwatcher abstraction, Identity)
• Lightweaver (internal Truthwatcher abstraction, Identity)
• Stoneward (internal Bondsmith abstraction, Connection)

Tertiary orders:

• Skybreakers (internalised Connection to inform Identity)
• Dustbringers (internalised Identity to inform Connection)
• Elsecallers (externalised Connection to inform Identity)
• Willshapers (externalised Identity to inform Connection)

 

So yeah, I agree with this framing! I kind of treat Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers as the cardinal poles of the Radiants and move outward from there, so secondary orders (four connections) are still mostly aligned with either Honor or Cultivation and are abstractions of Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers in internal/external pairs. Tertiary orders (three connections) are even further abstracted and are less aligned with a specific Shard, drawing from them both in a more balanced way.

Which is all to say that I basically agree with you. For example, Truthwatchers seek truth, nice and simple, then Elselcallers abstract it a bit and apply it more externally (seeking truths about people that would otherwise be lost to time).

I also find it much easier to visualise as a diagram, imo it makes the connections and 'tiers' really clear:

 

I'd be super interested to hear your thoughts on that and where it aligns and clashes with your thinking!

Looks like Skybreakers and elsecallers are the same

And that does relate very closely, yes.

[PanLin they/he]

8 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

Looks like Skybreakers and elsecallers are the same

Ah dangit, thanks, fixed the typo