The attitude towards Adonalsium at the time of The Shattering [Discuss]

[+Oltux72 he/him]

Yesterday I watched Shardcast. Yet the crew - big shoutout to them - took it as selfevident that the people killing Adonalsium acted in some kind of conspiracy. To be blunt, this makes no sense to me. The godkillers were a very diverse group including two dragons. Except for Tanavast they also seem to have come from a fairly sophisticated background. One of them is described as kind man. Another was quite nasty even prior to his ascension. What made them do it? This group does not look like a group that would spontaneously form in order to play board games and one day decide to kill a god. Such an undertaking sounds quite risky to me. The power? Maybe, but two of them were dragons.

No, I think we have to assume that they had a good point and thus were not the only ones to have less than a completely positive attitude towards Adonalsium. In other words isn't it much likelier that at the time the dominant attitude towards the The Shattering was: good riddance?

They may have come to regret it, but regret after the fact actually seeing previously unknown consequences is not exactly uncommon.

[alder24]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No, I think we have to assume that they had a good point and thus were not the only ones to have less than a completely positive attitude towards Adonalsium. In other words isn't it much likelier that at the time the dominant attitude towards the The Shattering was: good riddance?

Seems like it. Some definitely did it for power (Rayse probably), but others saw the Shattering as a necessity, Hoid included. And because according to Tanavast Adonalsium didn't fight back, it's possible that Adonalsium himself also shared their opinion. Which begs the question: what did Adonalsium do to make them want to kill him and to make them think they could do a better job as gods?

Tress ch 56:

Quote

“So far as I can tell,” he said, his voice growing very soft. “I’m sorry, Tress. I can’t let you face the Sorceress. I can’t. For your own good, you see.”
Ah, those words.
I’ve heard those words. I’ve said those words. The words that proclaim, in bald-faced arrogance, “I don’t trust you to make your own decisions.” The words we pretend will soften the blow, yet instead layer condescension on top of already existent pain. Like dirt on a corpse.
Oh yes. I’ve said those words. I said them with sixteen other people, in fact.

SH ch 3-1:

Quote

“Anyway, there was a God. Adonalsium. I don’t know if it was a force or a being, though I suspect the latter. Sixteen people, together, killed Adonalsium, ripping it apart and dividing its essence between them, becoming the first who Ascended.”
“Who were they?” Kelsier said, trying to make sense of this.
“A diverse group,” she said. “With equally diverse motives. Some wished for the power; others saw killing Adonalsium as the only good option left to them. Together they murdered a deity, and became divine themselves.”

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Did Hoid think of the Shattering as necessary?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* Kind of.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[QuantumAce]

7 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

No, I think we have to assume that they had a good point and thus were not the only ones to have less than a completely positive attitude towards Adonalsium. In other words isn't it much likelier that at the time the dominant attitude towards the The Shattering was: good riddance?

A small group agreeing on an action, for different reasons, in no way implies that action was a good idea, much less a popular one. What if they were a diverse group, because deciding god needed to die was an extremely rare belief? What if Ado's problems were so subtle that only a handful of powerful and well connected individuals understood them? What if it was a heist, with one of the dragons coming up with the idea to assemble a diverse crew of specialists to steal the power of a god? 

Even if wanting to kill or depose god was a popular idea, I have to assume actually planning and carrying out the act would have still required some degree of secrecy. As you mentioned, the undertaking seems quite risky. It is quite possible the majority of the population agreed the shattering was a good idea, but I think it is a huge stretch to assume that even the most powerful 16 individuals were able to openly plan and carry out the act. 

[alder24]

Just remembered, there is this WoB confirming there was at least one failed attempt to kill Adonalsium before the Shattering, so there were others that shared the idea the Vessels and Hoid had:

Spoiler

imriel452

Tell me something about the cosmere that has not been previously mentioned.

Brandon Sanderson

Long ago there was a plot to destroy Adonalsium. It failed.

General Signed Books 2015 (Jan. 7, 2015)

 

[Returned he/him]

I don't think it's safe to conclude that the prevailing attitude was "good riddance". I also don't see any reason to think that there was any public-spirited open debate or broad public agreement about the Shattering. Not that we have much information about circumstances surrounding the event in any direction, but that lack suggests that we should be humble about reaching any conclusion at all.

I do think that the broad shape of Cosmere events has been very "great person" focused: a very small number of people with incredible resources make the decisions which shape the world, and they tend not to care much what others think about the changes they impose. In that vein I would think that a conspiracy, however it came to be, is much more fitting than a zeitgeist for deicide. The conspirators seem to have had varied motivations, attitudes, and goals, but they likely were not random people: they were positioned in such a way as to be able to form and carry out their conspiracy.

Outside of that consideration I think that attitudes about Adonalsium were probably as varied and contested as attitudes about anything else. Even if there were general approvals for killing Adonalsium I have trouble believing that a meaningful portion of Cosmere denizens would be on board for these specific sixteen people shattering Adonalsium into those specific 16 Shards and then going off to do their own things for their own reasons. That alone makes me think that the Shatterers arrogated those decisions to themselves, then used their power and knowledge to secure and use the Dawnshards, without involving many others to provide input or to resist.

I wonder what the social and political landscape would be like if the general population were aware that Adonalsium was to be destroyed, and were fine with it. What do you all think it might be like? Mass strife, malaise, ennui, bottled-up tensions, open warfare, debates over what Shards to create, factions maneuvering to be the group that carries out the deed? "Adonalsium should be destroyed, and some currently-existing people should each take up one Xth of infinite power" seems like a really desperate view to take and accept, so if people did feel that way it suggests incredible pressures and situations surrounding them.

Edited March 31 by Returned